Are members of the Church left behind in the Rapture?

Hark said:

I never said that God stops dwelling within them. They will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ) entrance for being in iniquity still ( Matthew 7:23 & Titus 1:15-16 ), unless they repent by His help & by His grace before the Bridegroom comes. He still abides in former believers, ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) but they also are naked of their wedding garment unless they look to Him for help to discern the lies that overthrow their faith to depart from that iniquity of unbelief.

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Only those who deny Him will be denied. Paul does not establish believers being denied. And you merge separate teachings, and have to, in order to support your position. Those who are rejected of the Bridegroom are destroyed, and Christians are never said to be destroyed.

Hark said:

Which is why saints left behind are still His and He still abides in them.

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Sorry, but you are being inconsistent. Either they are left behind because they are not abiding or they aren't. Remember?

Hark said:

Without disregarding the warning of consequences given to believers since believers can still sin by sowing to the flesh or go astray or allow the cares of this life to make them not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

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There's not a single passage that can be given to support this. You have to insert eschatological application to contexts dealing with the here and now in regards to daily conduct.

Hark said:

That is why I need His help to even keep my hope on Him to help me to follow Him since I trust Him to be my Good Shepherd too. 1 John 3:3 & 2 Timothy 4:18

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My friend, that is why He gave us the Word. To bolster our faith, help us to grow, and help us to better know His will that we might keep it.

Do you seriously think that as a babe God is going to chastise His children who are ignorant of His will? Don't you think there is a, er, ahem...grace period? lol

Hark said:

Just as Peter's eyes were taken off of the Lord Jesus on the waters to the winds and waves of the storm, so can any believer in this life. This is where trusting the Lord for all things, including when we are overwhelm is important because trusting Him to take care of us no matter what is Him helping us to keep our eyes on Him in the midst of our storms in life.

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Again, a Pre-Pentecost event. guarantee you that Peter would not have sunk on the Day of Pentecost.

And can I ask you, how can you think you are trusting Him when you feel He is going to leave you behind if you do not meet a particular standard?

Here is our hope:


Titus 2:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Now one last question: Who is doing the purifying?

Who washes with the washing of the water of the Word?


Okay, have a great night.


God bless.

Darrell C said:

Look at it again and realize that we still do not apply this to born again believers:

This is speaking about eternal punishment and it cannot be applied to believers, who have been delivered from the wrath to come in every eschatological application we speak of.

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I do not see God throwing a city to be burned into the lake of fire. This fire is on earth, and therefore to be taken symbolically as for a time before the rapture.

You are seeking to tie believers left behind with the unbelievers in the Tribulation and it just doesn't fit the teaching. Believers are represented by who enter, unbelievers by who is destroyed.

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How did that guy without his wedding garment entered then?

(sorry, got this out of order)

My friend, you are the only one who sees that, lol. You have Christians committing murder and being left behind.

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It is symbolic of killing the message ( the invite ) sent by the messengers.

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom the judgment that falls does not involve the Sheep and Goat Judgment, but the Great White Throne Judgment. A-mils also see this as the same judgment (that depicted in Revelation 20).

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The White Throne Judgment involves the dead. Before that, is the sheep and goat judgment that involves the living. Both will happen at that time at the end of Satan's last rebellion.

You see the invite as relevant to the Church, it was not. The Church was as of yet a mystery, and did not exist. The invite was to Israel, Hark, The murder was committed by those of Israel. It is clear who is in view because it is stated right there in the text, lol.

Unless you believe that "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" is code for the Body of Christ.

And would you seriously have the Lord saying, "o Church..."

Just not reasonable.

Continued...

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You have to watch for when Jesus changes the topic from the topic in Matthew 22 nd chapter. He is addressing more than those that would be His disciples, and on a topic blasting away the scribes and the Pharisees, so no.. He is not addressing the topic of those would be His disciples in the church.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Here is an example of Jesus speaking to His future Church.

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

As we go down...you " might " take this as referring the lost to Israel.

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

But it is not Israel because the lost sheep was a part of the fold. Jesus goes on about those that go astray in the church.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

So it's like, if it wasn't for verse 17, you would not have a clear indication that Jesus was not talking about Israel here, because a person has to be saved for him to even be a brother in the first place before he went astray.

Darrell C said:

All of the references were of and to Israel, because that is who was there then, and who it was spoken to.

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Wait till you read post # 42 . You have to use discernment because you can't use that historical context of whom Jesus is speaking to as meaning only Israel at that time. Educational guideline can never make Bible reading that easy.

One getting baptized again is irrelevant to salvation, as is what people think. What people think does not legitimize their understanding. Only Scripture can be looked to as valid.

The point here is that the Writer is listing doctrines of the Law, not Christian principles, and tells them do not lay them down again. They are to go on unto perfection/completion, or in other words...embrace Christ. That is the consistent warning of the Writer to his Hebrew Brethren.

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Hebrews 6: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Why if God permits? Because there are some believers believing otherwise that seem to think they need to lay again that foundation.

Some believe that after having been saved by the hearing of the gospel, but were foolish to live in sin after wards and then repented, they would doubt or others would doubt them that they were saved in the first place.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul even touched on the subject of those that were saved but did not repent yet in verses 7 & 8 , but reminded them of better things regarding their salvation which once that foundation has been laid, can never be removed in spite of what was grown upon as thorns and briers.

Because they "feel" they can does not change the fact that Scripture teaches salvation is eternal.

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"If God permits" says anything, it says some believers will feel the need to lay down that foundation again for which reproof will be needed to debunk such a concern.

Apostasy is a standing away from, basically, and when spoken of refers to those clearly shown to reject Christ. All passages used to teach loss of salvation impose a state of salvation into those who are clearly not saved.

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So if a professing believer that had come forward and confessed that he believes in Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead at a church service, but has not been seek since, had lived as he had always lived before in sin, came back, desiring to depart from those sins, you would assume that he was never saved in the first place, and thus laying again the foundation when he already knows and believes in the gospel?

And again, the context of John 15 is prophetic, and speaks of the coming time when the Law will end and men will have to decide between the True Vine and the vine which is not true.

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John 14 th chapter is about Jesus prophesying of ascending to the Father in preparing a place for us in sending the Comforter to His disciples which happened since Pentecost, and so as He leads into John 15 th chapter, He is talking to saved believers as being a part of that Vine that being His disciples is how one is chosen for the Marriage Supper; as in many are called ( the saved believers ) but few are chosen, the disciples out of the saved believers as the elect to be received as vessels unto honor in His House.

Those saved believers that are a part of that vine that are found not abiding in Him, will be cut off, and I see that cut off as being left behind for the coming fire on the earth and subsequent great tribulation. Luke 12:40-49.

The text is clear, as are the other teachings just given: Christians will not fail to bear fruit, and it is by our fruit we are known.

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Saved believers abiding in Him as His disciples will bear fruit.

Saved believers that are a part of the vine but not abiding in Him to bear fruit will be cut off.

But no real point in reiterating, lol, I get it, you think believers can be left behind and burned up.

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Hebrews 6th chapter speaks of it of the thorns & briers that get burned up for what was received of the rain on that ground.

to be continued... God be willing.

Darrell C said:

Only the good ground receives the seed and produces fruit. This does not list four different results in Christians.

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The grounds that received the seed are those that received Jesus; but not every one that had received Jesus will bear fruit as His disciples.


Matthew 13:18-23

King James Version (KJV)

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

That would be unbelievers in verse 19.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

That would be saved believers not rooted in the word, that fall away from the faith by being made ashamed to believe in the Bible and thus in Him in the face of the lie of the evolution theory, and such like.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

That would be saved believers that lose sight of Jesus in their walk with Him to love this world more and thus become unfruitful in their walk as they are no longer abiding in Him nor walking in the light with Him, even though He still abides in them as promised.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Only the good ground presents salvation. And everyone saved produces fruit.

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And so you would be one of those that would deem it necessary for someone that claimed to be saved before but had not lived his life after he was saved walking in the light with Jesus, to lay that foundation down again by preaching the gospel which he already knows, to be saved, if not for the first time?

So you can see why believers would think they need to lay that foundation down again by preaching the gospel again, and doing that water baptism again, and whatever because the church believed that the professing believer was not saved the first time.

The same principle is in view, and a distinction between true and false is made.

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In spite of them doing good works in Jesus's name? Matthew 7:21-23

It has nothing to do with an ecumenical scenario.

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Matthew 7:15-16 does.

[And it still has the genuine article producing good fruit, whereby they are to be recognized, just as the false is./QUOTE]


Therefore the following verses about the tree is for discerning that which is ecumenical that no matter what you think is good fruit, if that means produces bad fruit, don't ignore it, but discern that the good that you think you are seeing is bad as well.

In these movement of the "Spirit", do they not boast of healings? Do they not boast of prophesying? Do they not boast about casting out devils? But the iniquity they all share is focus on the Holy Spirit to receive again after a sign.

Even Ernest Angeley Crusade promotes the coming of the Holy Spirit on believers that promotes healing. That is the evil tree for believing that one can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign; even the sign of tongues that NEVER comes with interpretation.


[QUOTE[And this is the same principle seen in 2 Peter 2. And just like here, those who teach loss of salvation convert those who are clearly not believers into believers, that they can teach that believers can lose salvation.

Continued...

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2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

I see being a castaway and thus left behind to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor in His House as a damnation since they are being destroyed from being that vessel unto honor and thus being damned into becoming that vessel unto dishonor in His House.

That is why God has to wipe the tears away from those saints coming out of the great tribulation, because there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth like Esau did for exchanging his birthright for something temporary. Just as the prodigal son did in giving up his inheritance for wild living.

Darrell C said:

Only those who deny Him will be denied. Paul does not establish believers being denied. And you merge separate teachings, and have to, in order to support your position. Those who are rejected of the Bridegroom are destroyed, and Christians are never said to be destroyed.

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1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is what happens when a vessel unto honor is destroyed into becoming that vessel unto dishonor to be received later on after the great tribulation.

Sorry, but you are being inconsistent. Either they are left behind because they are not abiding or they aren't. Remember?

There's not a single passage that can be given to support this. You have to insert eschatological application to contexts dealing with the here and now in regards to daily conduct.

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Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace...........12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

So a believer can sow to the works of the flesh in reaping corruption where they will find their sinful state before they were saved, to be worse than it ever was before;

And so unless they repent by calling on Jesus to save them from their sins, to put away all provisions for the flesh that would fulfill the lust thereof, and trust Him to help them cast down wicked thoughts to think on good things in departing from iniquity by His grace & by His help, these saved believers are going to get that comeuppance from God the Father for not looking to the author & finisher of our faith in running that race in resisting sin; Hebrews 12 th chapter.

My friend, that is why He gave us the Word. To bolster our faith, help us to grow, and help us to better know His will that we might keep it.

Do you seriously think that as a babe God is going to chastise His children who are ignorant of His will? Don't you think there is a, er, ahem...grace period? lol

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When God comes to judge His House first, grace period is over.

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Again, a Pre-Pentecost event. guarantee you that Peter would not have sunk on the Day of Pentecost.

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Peter did sunk which was why the Lord sent Paul to rebuke him to his face.

And can I ask you, how can you think you are trusting Him when you feel He is going to leave you behind if you do not meet a particular standard?

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I trust Him as my Good Shepherd & my Good Friend in getting me ready & keeping me ready by abiding in Him and His words as kept in the KJV as His disciple to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House as I place my confidence in Him to finish the race for me since the rewards of crowns will be cast at His feet in Heaven because the crowns are His crowning achievements in us..

Here is our hope:

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Titus 2:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Now one last question: Who is doing the purifying?

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Jesus Christ

Who washes with the washing of the water of the Word?

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Jesus Christ.

But I believe also that He is going to finish His work in those wayward and unrepentant saints left behind too.

Okay, have a great night.

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Thanks, but it is near noon now.

God bless.

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May God bless you too, brother.

Hark said:

This fire is on earth, and therefore to be taken symbolically as for a time before the rapture.

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Okay, you do not see a reference to eternal judgment, and ascribe only a physical element to the teaching.

Not much point in trying to debate a view that views the Lord speaking about Christians being murderers.


God bless.

Hark said:

How did that guy without his wedding garment entered then?

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You did not understand the answer supplied to this question?

It is found in the very passages given.


God bless.

Hark said:

The grounds that received the seed are those that received Jesus; but not every one that had received Jesus will bear fruit as His disciples.

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And that conclusion cannot be reasonably drawn from the Parable.

In view are those who receive and understand, and they all bear fruit.

No fruit came from the soils which did not understand, where the seed could not grow, and where the seed is rejected. While I know it is popular to impose a meaning of four different types of Christians by many teachers, they err in that they suggest that the Word of God can fail to produce fruit in a salvific context.

Again, you continue to argue from a perspective which denies the historical context. We can find application to the Church but that is not the intent in the teaching when it is given. Until you can first understand it in that perspective you will continue to impose your personal doctrine into the texts.


God bless.

Hark said:

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is what happens when a vessel unto honor is destroyed into becoming that vessel unto dishonor to be received later on after the great tribulation.

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Again, you fail to distinguish between temporal judgment and eternal judgment. Paul makes the same statement in regards to those who partake of Communion unworthily, and seen in the example of Ananias and Sapphira...He will end the lives of believers who sin to the point of unrepentance.

Nowhere is the matter of vessels of honor and vessels unto dishonor correlated in any Rapture teaching.

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Tribulation or the Rapture.

You continue to seek to proof-text your position (that believers are left behind at the Rapture) yet you ignore the passages dealing with the Rapture.

Can you ask yourself why that is? At least on two occasions Paul's teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4 has been pointed out to be all inclusive of the members of the Body of Christ, yet you still take teachings which deal with daily conversation and try to use them as speaking of believers being left behind.

Where, in Paul's teaching, do you see anyone being left behind?


God bless.

Darrell C said:

Okay, you do not see a reference to eternal judgment, and ascribe only a physical element to the teaching.

Not much point in trying to debate a view that views the Lord speaking about Christians being murderers.

God bless.

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That is how you are applying my application, but that is not my application.

Killing the messengers is about rejecting the message sent. The old saying "don't kill the messenger" is about the recipient not liking the message. It is the epitomy of disrespect shown symbolically, even though many christians today are rejecting the call to get ready without killing christians telling them how to get ready, BUT they will receive the same punishment as if they did to show how disrespectful it is to reject the message as a personal invitation from the King to attend.

Darrell C said:

You did not understand the answer supplied to this question?

It is found in the very passages given.

God bless.

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I say by the application for which you said those that enter in are saved, but not having a wedding garment is how a saved believer can void or null faith by iniquity and thus be seen as a saved believer without a wedding garment.

Romans 14:4 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

The moment any saved believers looks to works to save themselves in stead of our hope in Him as our Savior for just believing even in His name or looks to a religious bondage to serve as a means to follow Him instead of our hope in Him as our Good Shepherd to abide in Him, they are voiding faith.

If a person seek to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign, they are denying Him as in him and thus falling away from the faith as voiding faith by that iniquity. 1 Timothy 4:1-2 & Matthew 12:39 & 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5

They can still repent with His help, but once the Bridegroom has come, it is too late. They will have to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Darrell C said:

And that conclusion cannot be reasonably drawn from the Parable.

In view are those who receive and understand, and they all bear fruit.

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We are talking about salvation in receiving that seed, Whom is Jesus, right?

No fruit came from the soils which did not understand, where the seed could not grow, and where the seed is rejected. While I know it is popular to impose a meaning of four different types of Christians by many teachers, they err in that they suggest that the Word of God can fail to produce fruit in a salvific context.

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Only the first one was about unbelievers, because the seed were gobbled up by Satan. The rest had received the seed.

That seed is Jesus.

Again, you continue to argue from a perspective which denies the historical context. We can find application to the Church but that is not the intent in the teaching when it is given. Until you can first understand it in that perspective you will continue to impose your personal doctrine into the texts.

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Until you explain what that seed is and what it means to receive that seed, we shall continue to be at an impasse here.

Hark said:

Whom is Jesus, right?

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Wrong. The word you are looking for is "who." "Who."

Use this he/him method to decide whether who or whom is correct:

he = who
him = whom

Would you say "He is Jesus" or "Him is Jesus?"

Then you would say "Who is Jesus" Not "Whom is Jesus."

Darrell C said:

Again, you fail to distinguish between temporal judgment and eternal judgment. Paul makes the same statement in regards to those who partake of Communion unworthily, and seen in the example of Ananias and Sapphira...He will end the lives of believers who sin to the point of unrepentance.

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That would include why those left behind are fated to die.

Nowhere is the matter of vessels of honor and vessels unto dishonor correlated in any Rapture teaching.

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How joyful is that celebration at the Marriage Supper " if " you are being received as a vessel unto dishonor and having lost your crowns?

And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Tribulation or the Rapture.

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Not that you see at this time, no.

You continue to seek to proof-text your position (that believers are left behind at the Rapture) yet you ignore the passages dealing with the Rapture.

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I didn't, if you recall. I just applied it differently from how you were taking it to mean.

Can you ask yourself why that is? At least on two occasions Paul's teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4 has been pointed out to be all inclusive of the members of the Body of Christ, yet you still take teachings which deal with daily conversation and try to use them as speaking of believers being left behind.

Where, in Paul's teaching, do you see anyone being left behind?

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Again, Paul was referring to the firstfruits just as much as the apostle John was referring to those that were " not of us ", as they no longer follow " us ". We see a distinction here.

1 Thessalonians 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Yet Paul would call those that not follow us as not the enemy, but brothers still. 2 Thessalonians 3;1-7,14-15 So in that respect to 1 Thessalonians 4 th chapter, the reference to "all" is to those abiding IN Christ as the sheep that follows His voice that will be raptured.

God bless.

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May God bless you enough to at least see my P.O.V. , even though you may still disagree with it because of your standard of historical context in how you have been taught by educated men in reading the scripture.

TCassidy said:

Wrong. The word you are looking for is "who." "Who."

Use this he/him method to decide whether who or whom is correct:

he = who
him = whom

Would you say "He is Jesus" or "Him is Jesus?"

Then you would say "Who is Jesus" Not "Whom is Jesus."

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Well, I am open to correction in grammar, but still not seeing your correction from the context as it was used in my sentence.

"We are talking about salvation in receiving that seed, Whom is Jesus, right?"

Rewording it would be like...

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, Whom is Jesus, right?"

Pretty sure I got it right.

Hark said:

That is how you are applying my application, but that is not my application.

Killing the messengers is about rejecting the message sent. The old saying "don't kill the messenger" is about the recipient not liking the message. It is the epitomy of disrespect shown symbolically, even though many christians today are rejecting the call to get ready without killing christians telling them how to get ready, BUT they will receive the same punishment as if they did to show how disrespectful it is to reject the message as a personal invitation from the King to attend.

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So show how Christians in this Age are killing the messengers.


God bless.

Hark said:

Until you explain what that seed is and what it means to receive that seed, we shall continue to be at an impasse here.

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Already did that, Hark.

Here it is again:


Luke 8:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.


I am afraid that we will remain at an impasse because I cannot devote time to reiterating and arguing the same points.

The burden lies on you to show believers being left behind, and so far you have supplied passages totally unrelated to the Rapture. You have not even addressed 1 Thessalonians 4. If I remember correctly, that is the very first point I produced as an argument against your view.

It remains unchallenged, and, reiterated by at least one other member.


God bless.

Darrell C said:

So show how Christians in this Age are killing the messengers.

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By telling me that saved believers will not be left behind, and therefore no need to worry about getting ready by His help & by His grace to leave.

You are not killing me, per se, but you are killing the message.

In another sense, you are killing christians by condemning them that live in sin that they were never saved, and so re-enforcing them in their wickedness to continue to live in sin as no one will bother to correct them seeing how they are not really brothers.

It is because they are saved; because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His just for even believing in His name ( John 1:12-13 )(, they are to look to Him for help to repent or else.

Darrell C said:

Already did that, Hark.

Here it is again:

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Luke 8:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Here is why that word of God and that seed is Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God....14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I am afraid that we will remain at an impasse because I cannot devote time to reiterating and arguing the same points.

The burden lies on you to show believers being left behind, and so far you have supplied passages totally unrelated to the Rapture. You have not even addressed 1 Thessalonians 4. If I remember correctly, that is the very first point I produced as an argument against your view.

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Okay. Once again, Paul refers to two kinds of christians here.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: 4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; 5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: 6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. 8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Therefore those that continue to walk in uncleanness despise God. And those that despise God by walking in uncleanness cannot be of the fold that follow His voice that Paul is talking about as the " all " that shall be changed in. That "all" being changed cannot include those saved believers walking in uncleanness or defrauding his brother since they are not possessing their vessel in HONOR.

That is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that will not be raptured.

It remains unchallenged, and, reiterated by at least one other member.

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I leave it to God to cause the increase, brother. God be willing, you shall find out soon enough, and rejoice even more when you see the power of God in salvation for even those that just believe in His name, even though they get left behind for not abiding in Him as His disciples.

God bless.

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May God bless you too, brother.

Hark said:

By telling me that saved believers will not be left behind, and therefore no need to worry about getting ready by His help & by His grace to leave.

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First, again the historical context, which is clearly speaking about the Prophets.

Secondly, you assume I am the one "killing the message," lol.

Third, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, above all other views, motivates to Holy Living. We view the Rapture as possibly occurring at any moment, which means this very minute I am speaking to you, the Lord could call me up. So there is no logic in your reasoning that me pointing out that the entire Church is caught up somehow equates to me telling you "Hey, no worries mate, live it up," is a false argument.

Hark said:

You are not killing me, per se, but you are killing the message.

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Now I want you to notice what you do here, Hark, because this is something you have been doing frequently, and is why you are merging teachings and concepts: you exchange the actual issue with something else.

You have gone from what is in the text, a killing of people, and made it a message.


Matthew 22:1-14
King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.


Israel did not kill "the message," they slew the Prophets.

Now, again...how do you have Christians slaying the servants of God?

Unbelievers are the murderers, and just as stated before, you are imposing a quality of believer to those clearly identified as unbelievers. And you have to do this to support your view.

Hark said:

In another sense, you are killing christians by condemning them that live in sin that they were never saved, and so re-enforcing them in their wickedness to continue to live in sin as no one will bother to correct them seeing how they are not really brothers

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My friend, this is a construct of your mind and not something you have taken from the text.

You are spiritualizing the very meaning of the passage/s away to support your view.

Now I am causing people to go to Hell because I am a Pre-Tribulation believer?

C'mon. lol

Hark said:

It is because they are saved; because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His just for even believing in His name ( John 1:12-13 )(, they are to look to Him for help to repent or else.

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Do you know that Israel was bought with a price?


Deuteronomy 32:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?


This is why Peter quotes this:


2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


In view are unbelievers.

That's who is left behind at the Rapture, Hark.

God bless.