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Featured Guns and the Church

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Twin Reverb, Feb 25, 2016.

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Guns In The Church?

Poll closed Feb 25, 2017.
  1. Yes

    9 vote(s)
    90.0%
  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Well-Known Member

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    For six years I pastored an inner city church in a neighborhood that was so dangerous that it was “off limits” to military personnel. An attempt to kill me was made twice that I know of, and for about six months I counseled a cold-blooded murder. Because of the multitude and severity of the crimes that he had committed, he refused to talk with me in public places in the church, and preferred to use a dimly lighted hallway that led to parts of the church that were not open to the congregation. He frequently got right into my face and could easily have killed me and gotten away with it had God permitted him to do so. My last conversation with this man was a conversation with a gloriously saved, born-again man of God who moved to another community hundreds of miles away to get a fresh start away from his gang. As Christians, we are to fear God, not men! As Christians, it is our responsibility to lead men to Christ—not to shoot them with a gun.

    One of our Bible teachers was shot and killed, but only when he chose to position his body between an assailant’s gun and the body of an evangelist preaching in the pulpit—the assailant’s target. I knew our 70-year-old Bible teacher very well and I know for certain that had he had access to a gun, he would not have used it to take a human life. To my knowledge, none of our members ever packed a gun on the church grounds—or, for that matter, anywhere else. Had any of them done so, I would have been very disappointed and wondered why my sermons and Bible studies and been so ineffectual.

    I currently live, by choice, in a gang-infested neighborhood where killings by guns and knives are a frequent occurrence, but I do not and will not pack a gun—even though I am frequently outside in the dark after midnight.

    By the way—that inner city church that I pastored was kept open every night till midnight seven days a week, including all holidays, so that it would be open to the very worst of the worse when they were doing their thing where they did it. Even though I was the senior pastor with a staff of associate and assistant pastors, I chose to be there at the church and available to the public six nights a week till midnight, and then went to my office in the church and prayed till 2:00 a.m. I then walked home—alone! Our senior counselor often stayed at the church till after 2:00 in the morning because there were so many people needing help. God does not go to bed at midnight, and the Holy Spirit is always there to watch over us.
     
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Being a veteran I still consider myself a guardian of the public (of all enemies both foreign and domestic).
    Though I don't carry at the moment a retired police officer in our local church and I have discussed it positively.
    We are both deacons. Romans 13:1-4.

    As guardians of the congregation (both as deacons and protectors of the public) we will not stand idly by and allow heads to be chopped off or the innocent mowed down by lunatics

    HankD
     
  3. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing with us your perspective, but I believe that the perspective of Jesus is more Biblical.

    Luke 12:4. “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
    5. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
    6. “Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
    7. “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.” (NASB, 1995)
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So do I. Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

    Some things are worth defending. And if God chooses to defend me, my wife, my kids, my grandkids, and my brothers and sisters in Christ by means of me and my expertise with firearms, who am I to deny God that right? After all, He is Lord!

    Remember the story of the Baptist Deacon. A flood was upon the town where he lived. His home was being flooded. The water came up so high he had to get up on the roof to stay out of the water. A boat came by with two men in it and they told him to climb in and they would take him to high ground.

    He told them, "I am a deacon at the Baptist church. God told me He would protect me and keep me from all harm. I am in no danger from the flood. Go rescue someone who really needs your help."

    The waters continued to rise until he had to stand up on the chimney to stay out of the water. Another boat came by and they said there was room for one more, get in and they would take him to high ground.

    He told them, "I am a deacon at the Baptist church. God told me He would protect me and keep me from all harm. I am in no danger from the flood. Go rescue someone who really needs your help."

    Finally the water was up to his chin! A helicopter came along and lowered a rope ladder and yelled "Grab hold!"

    He said, "I am a deacon at the Baptist church. God told me He would protect me and keep me from all harm. I am in no danger from the flood. Go rescue someone who really needs your help."

    And the water came up and the deacon drowned. He found himself standing before the Lord in Heaven. Before the Lord could welcome him he said, "I am a deacon at the Baptist church. You told me You would protect me and keep me from all harm. How could you do this to me?"

    And the Lord answered, "What are you talking about? I sent two boats and a helicopter!"

    We sometimes want God to protect us, but we insist He do it our way. :D
     
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  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Well-Known Member

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    For two millennia, scholars of the Bible have expressed puzzlement concerning Luke 22:36. Why did Jesus say to his disciples, “And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.”? Part of the problem, of course, is that the Greek sentence underlying this translation found here from the RSV has been interpreted in four different ways with four different meanings.

    In his commentary on the Greek text of the Gospel According to Luke, Joseph A. Fitzmyer writes, “The relation between these three parts of v. 36 is quite complicated.” On pages 1,431-1,432 of his commentary, Fitzmyer provides us with a detailed analysis of the syntax used in the Greek text of v. 36 and explains the basis of each of the four possible interpretations. However, none of these four interpretations justify the idea that Jesus was instructing His disciple to purchase a sword in the light of His impending arrest. Indeed, when Peter mistakenly attempted to use his sword to prevent the arrest, Jesus not only put a stop to it, but healed the victim’s ear.

    But why purchase a sword? We certainly do not have any instances in the New Testament where a sword was used by any of Jesus’ disciples—or, for that matter, by any Christian for any purpose. Therefore, Luke 22:36 should never be used to justify purchasing and packing a gun when Jesus is not available to heal the gunshot victim!

    By the way—is not allowing God to physically save us by using a boat or a helicopter very much different that allowing God to physically protect us from an assailant by our using a lethal weapon?
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    When we just take the word as written there is nothing at all complicated about Christ's statement. The world is a dangerous place. He expects us to protect ourselves and our loved ones from harm as part of His watchcare over us. No need to complicate the meaning right out of what He says. :)
    calvin hobbs.jpg
     
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  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Well-Known Member

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    This statement is absolutely untrue, and the analysis of the Greek syntax used in the sentence proves that it is untrue.

    Nowhere, absolutely nowhere in the New Testament do we read that Jesus expects us to protect ourselves and our loved ones from harm through lethal force as part of “His watchcare over us.” Indeed, my cousin in Chattanooga Tennessee calls that “the devil’s hogwash!”

    Luke 12:4. “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
    5. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
    6. “Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
    7. “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.” (NASB, 1995)
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    v.38. So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said, "It is enough."'
    So two swords between eleven people were enough. No case here for a Christian to have his own private armoury.
     
  9. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    So you support a ratio of 2 armed men per every 11 people in the pews? I think you're finally coming around.
    :D
     
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  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    If I attended a church in Northern Nigeria or some parts of Pakistan, it might be advisable for the brethren to mount an armed guard outside the church during the services if (and only if) the police were not prepared to give protection. In a civilized society weapons owned by civilians are unnecessary and lead to bloodshed, whether accidental or purposeful. To carry guns inside a church is an appalling witness.
     
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  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    There is nothing true about this post
     
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  12. Rolfe

    Rolfe Well-Known Member
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    A patently naive opinion.
     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    It's nice to see that Martin approves of 135 church members being armed in our church which runs around 750 on Sunday morning. 2 for every 11. :D
     
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  15. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Well-Known Member

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    Blatantly dishonest tongue-in cheek posts like this make me nauseated and ashamed to tell people that I am a Baptist! Martin very clearly wrote from his heart, “To carry guns inside a church is an appalling witness,” and to willfully and deliberately misrepresent his words in jest, sick humor, or anything else is outrageous and unconscionable. Indeed, it is behavior like this that makes Christianity so extremely unpalatable to the very people who need to see Christ rather than the devil in the lives that we live. There is no precedent anywhere in the New Testament for carrying lethal weapons inside a place of worship, and when Christians do so, they bring shame upon the faith that they are to represent. I for one would much rather be shot to death in church than bring shame upon the faith that I represent.
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Jeremiah 17:9. :)
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    "Martin very clearly wrote from his heart,"

    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?
     
  18. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Well-Known Member

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  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Don't you mean "Shame on God?" He is the one who said it. :)
     
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