Featured Hebrews 6 Dilemma

They were falling back into...


Hebrews 10:39

King James Version (KJV)

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


In view is eternal separation. That is what these Hebrews are warned against.

Judas was not the "son of the land," was he?

The same word is used here:


2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


The links provide the usage.


God bless.

 

You are imposing a continuing process that is not found in the text. In Hebrews, there is only those perfected, and those who need to be made perfect.

Perfection is synonymous with salvation itself.

Here...


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


In view is bringing something to it's completion, and the context of Hebrews 9-10 is centered on remission of sins. This is why the Writer constantly contrasts the "then" (under Law and it's services) with the "now" (the time of the writing and carrying on even today).

The first point he drives home in Hebrews 10 is that the sacrifices of the Law could not make one perfect:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


This is why he tells his Hebrew brethren "Therefore, let us go on unto perfection (completion)." It is a call to the Hebrew people to progress from the Covenant of Law to the New Covenant. The Covenant of Law could not bring one to completion in regards to remission of sins, and was never meant to. In Hebrews 9:7-9 we see that the Tabernacle and it's services are just meant to be a figure of the True, not the reality themselves. And while sin was atoned through those sacrifices, and this was a provision of God, they had to, as the Writer points out, be offered over and over, and on a daily basis.

The reason for that is because it could not bring remission of sins to it's end.

Only Christ can, and did do that.


God bless.

 

In watching the rest of the video, just a few comments:

Up to the 15.00 mark the only things I would disagree with is...

1. His reference to the laying on of hands as being in regards to the Day of Atonement, which it is, but, I think he would do better to make it clear that this had a broader understanding for Israel (which actually carried into the Church), rather than just the Day of Atonement. It may be he simply want to simplify the teaching.

2. His statement that the reference to the foundational teachings of the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment was directed at the Pharisees specifically. It is directed at Israel as a Nation, and most among this very religious society understood the resurrection of the dead as an Old Testament Doctrine. An example of this would be Mary and Martha lamenting over their brother, knowing he would rise in the resurrection.

At 18:25, while I would not be too critical of his teaching on enlightenment, it is my opinion that at this point every teacher has a responsibility to make the points that (1) God has always enlightened men (because men do not possess the spiritual things of God in themselves), (2) that those in view were enlightened to the Gospel (this is Age specific revelation, so we distinguish in view is not general revelation, but as the Writer drives home throughout the Book the revelation they are enlightened to is in regards to Christ), and (3) that it is the specific ministry that the Comforter does in this Age (and keep in mind there is a "then and now" contrast between the Old Testament and the New throughout the Book). Again, I give him the benefit of the doubt and suspect he may be simplifying, and that is not a bad thing when dealing with such a seemingly difficult passage.

At 19:25 in regards to partakers, this is something I can tell you from experience is going to be rejected by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers/adherents). The fact is that if someone partakes of something they are participants. So how do we reconcile unbelievers partaking of the Holy Ghost? It's not difficult. Throughout Scripture we see men moved by the Holy Spirit, empowered, and performing ministries. We can look at King Saul, Judas, and even Caiaphas as partakers of the Holy Ghost. And when we understand that the Comforter is convicting the world, not believers, but unbelievers, of sin, righteousness, and judgment, we understand the partaking that is in view. The resulting condemnation for those who become apostate in Hebrews 10:29 is that they have "done despite unto the Spirit of Grace." So here he presents a spectator "partaking" and that isn't the case. Those in view have partaken of the Holy Ghost. Doesn't mean they were saved, simply ministered to by God.

When he speaks of those who "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh," I think he drops the ball a little bit. He makes this to mean that the one who had been enlightened to truth hardens his heart, and that is true, but, we again consider the audience and we can see another way they can "Crucify the Son of God afresh:" they return to the sacrifices of the Law. The Writer refers to "the Son of God," not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, everybody understands (believer or unbeliever), can never be crucified again. But, the sacrifices of the Old Testament, even prior to the establishment of the Covenant of Law, provided a picture of the Son of God dying upon the Cross. So when these Hebrews once again offered up sacrifice, they were, in that sense, crucifying Christ again, in figure.

The last critique I would offer up would be his final commentary on the rain and the results (herbs and thorns). He presents a picture of unbelievers laboring and producing some fruit. I don't see that in the text, but the opposite, that those that do not produce fruit, but thorns and briers are slothful.

The "rain" is used as a figure for the provision of God, similar to the "Vine" of John 15 and the Tree of Romans 11. And it goes out to everyone (and for my Calvinistic brethren, I am not interested in debating that point in this thread, this should stay on topic). Just as the gospel went out to all of Israel, yet those that did not enter into the rest of that day (the Land) failed to enter because they were unbelieving and had no faith.

The rebuke addresses those among the audience who were struggling with something you and I never had to, which is being brought up in a religious society that lived, ate, and drank religious practice. For there to be even a remotely similar experience for us, we would have to have God present new revelation which demanded we stop trusting and placing our faith in the Shed Blood of Christ. Because the Law, and the very society, was God ordained and commanded.

So not an easy step for them, to "go on unto perfection," which Friel correctly points out is not an abandonment, but a progression from what is foundational to what has been brought to it's end, or, completed. However, that does not make that an excuse. The reason is because they will be enlightened to the truth by the Spirit of God, and will, if they reject that Ministry, be found guilty of themselves, and punished more severely than those who rejected the Covenant of Law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

To answer the question of the OP, I would highly recommend this video to those struggling with this passage. Over all it is a refreshing and welcome lesson which stands in stark contrast to 95% of the teaching on this passage out there.

I would like to see what this guy does with Hebrews 10:26-29.

And as an aside, since his style was mentioned by at least one, I liked his style. He presented the Word of God clearly and confidently, which are two characteristics necessary for those of us who would presume to teach.


God bless.

 

Well, Can you Crucify Christ every time you sin? Sorta cheapen s the valid of a One time death for all SIN..

The writer of Hebrews simply says , he was not going to review, basic salvation again, (described as a list ) at this time rather going on to growth as believer, if possible he would go over basic salvation again later.

It does not require a translation or doctrinal knowledge but basic English sentance structure to understand this chapter, Take out the verse separations to read it more easily

 

12
Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


And how did that perfection come about through that offering? Are they not sanctified, unto salvation?

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. --That will being, that the Son would give his life which was in the flesh of his body.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Hebrews 5:9,10

He suffered and learned obedience through those sufferings and was obedient unto the death of which he feared. Through his body he offered himself. He is then dead. Whence come the perfection?

Verse 10 And being made perfect, (<by resurrection from the dead) he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Paul in Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:3-5

The lively hope, is the same as, the unto salvation, that which by the resurrection was perfected in Christ and now has become our hope. The same hope BTW which is spoken of in Romans 8:25,25 which we with patience wait for and is spoken of in verse 23 as the adoption, the redemption of the body. > an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,

I believe the perfection we seek is that of our forerunner spoken of in verse 6:20.

BTW of what order of priesthood will we be?

What will determine the order of our priesthood?

 

They are in danger of falling away from the living God.
Such apostasy is to perdition.
It reads....IF having fallen away....it is not contingent but actual.
Such a falling away has eternal consequences asthey depart from the living God.
Real believers will perservere in the faith as God enables them.
If I agree with most of what you posted here it still does not change the fact that those who are apostate go to hell.
Do you believe that people go to hell?
You seem to resist any verse that mentions it and explain it away.
Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else.
Kyred....I see you have tried to make a biblical case, and it has some merit. I do not dismiss all of it.
I think you keep it all on paper than think it actual happens in real time.
While planned in eternity past and certain to happen on the Divine side, all of the means happen in real time....in each persons life.
Some people were reprobated today...some were saved today . Even though the certainty of it did not change...the actuality of it is worked out in time.

 

What matter is not "what we believe," but what Scripture states.

And it states that by one offering, that is, the offering of Christ Himself, those who are sanctified are made perfect, that is, complete in regards to remission of sins...for ever.

The context is solely regarding sacrifice for sins, not the daily conversation of the believer.

You are ignoring the context of the passage, as well as the entire Book to support what you want to believe it means. That is no way to understand Scripture.

I would suggest you watch the video.


God bless.

 

You are imposing a meaning that is dealing with Christ's sacrifice, it isn't. To "crucify the Son of God again to one's self is dealing with the apostate, not Christ, not a valid Christianity.

They are crucifying the Son of God again by rejecting His sacrifice, thus the type of the Son of God's sacrifice (the sacrifices of the Law) is repeated when they return to the sacrifices of the Law. They "crucify the Son of God again" in figure.

There is nothing of the sort in the text, lol.

What cannot be renewed (not reviewed)...is repentance. You are replacing the word in the text with salvation.

And this is what everyone who teaches loss of salvation does, they ascribe salvation to those who are specifically said not to be saved. So don't make that mistake yourself, Tom.

The list is not "basic salvation," they are the "First Principles of the Word of God." The "ABCs of the Old Testament."

This is why the writer states they are ignorant of the First Principles...


Hebrews 5:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


Now, here he says "You should be teachers, but need to be taught again the first principles."

Let's see him tell them to move on from those first principles...


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


"The First Principles of the Oracles of God" are not basic Christian teachings, they are the basic principles of Christ as found in the Old Testament. The rebuke is to the Hebrew audience who were ignorant because they were "lazy to hear."

Secondly they are told "Don't lay again that foundation." Does that make sense to instruct a Christian not to lay again the foundational doctrines of Christianity? The key to understanding this is understanding perfection, which is not maturity, but completion. The First Principles of the Oracles of God laid the foundation for the Doctrine of Christ. Not to "go on unto perfection" is not to go on unto the Completion of those principles in Christ.

It does require an understanding of the original language, and we know this because...English speaking scholars translated it.

You are ascribing inerrancy to the translation rather than the Word of God. If you impose a modern understanding to "perfection" you are not going to understand this passage at all.

I would suggest you watch the video. It does help to get a basic grasp of what is going on here.


God bless.

 

As the man said in the video, "Therefore". The heir of God Heb. 1:2, the what is man, but we see Jesus Heb 2:9 died, and has been perfected inheriting all things, made high priest after the order of Melchisedec, by the One who said, "Today I have begotten (born) thee," has been perfected Ch 5. Chapter 6 Now lets go forth as joint heirs, what has been done, is done and is not possible to do again. Let's enter in as our forerunner has entered. Let's move toward our inheritance.

 

So you will ignore what Scripture teaches and maintain what you want to believe.

Okay.

We can't enter in as our Fore-Runner did, that's why we aren't also called forerunners.

All I can recommend is that you study the Book.

You are, as you usually do, ignoring anything I have said and simply reiterating your own desired belief. It has nothing to do with an exegetical approach to the Book of Hebrews, and it has nothing to do with anything I have said. If you want to converse with me, rather than talk at me, then address what I have said in this thread. I have given my assessment of the video, and addressed what I see in regards to Friel's teaching. Over all, better than most that's available, or what we see in the forums, but, I have a few problems with it.

One of the problems is both his and your own misunderstanding of the "Therefore" in Chapter 6. We can apply this to everything he has said through Chapter 5, but, because he generalizes this and broadens what it refers to, the immediate correlation is lost, and he concludes around the 10.00 mark..."You get it! You understand the First Principles."

And that is not the case. Those being rebuked in Ch.5 do not get it, they are ignorant, they are slothful, hence the rebuke and warning.

So if you want to ignore what is actually stated in this passage, be my guest. Just don't think I am going to spend time responding to your posts when you have no intention of hearing anything that is said, much less addressing it.

This is the same thing you did when you were convinced that Christ had to be born again.


God bless.

 

Perfection is maturity for Christian, or completion as Jesus completed or made perfect the Law.

 

nope , just simple English sentence structure, The writer is NOT reviewing the Basic tenants of Salvation again, but gowing to discuss growth o the maturity of those already saved.

The Scofield reference Bible comments are wrong, on this as well.

 

It's not "simple English structure," Tom, it is a translation of Greek text into English. The thought that understanding the original is unnecessary defies the Translation Process altogether.

You will never find a credible Theologian to agree with you.

Now so you don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that one cannot come to the truth by reading a translation. I'm not saying that at all. I'll take a Spirit0filled ignoramus over an intellectual Scholar any day.

But we do not neglect the fact that everything you read in a translation is the result of untold efforts in the Translation Process.

And I will not argue this point. If you think you can understand this passage with a modern understanding of concepts presented in Hebrews, that's your choice. However, you are going to have one heck of a time convincing anyone you are perfect, lol. Because that is what you are going to have to do to make your view credible. You are not going to be able to draw on the original meaning that belongs to the word in the original language, by which you can explain you don't mean what the modern use means.

I would also like to see you explain to people about the Spirit of God "letting" the Antichrist...do anything.




God bless.

 

Last things first. God is OMNIPOTENT, nothing, nothing happens without His permission, capiche?

Remember Hebrews is comparing the Law and the finished work of Christ to show Christ is better


Heb 6:1

¶
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 6:2


Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Heb 6:3


And this will we do, if God permit.


The section in red is discussed previously and will be discussed later,, "if God permit"

The section in Blue is a comment upon Salvation ( presented previously and referred to in verse 1-3
addressing there is no need to continue in that regard of salvation again and again because it is a one time event, unable to be los

Heb 6:4

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5


And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6


If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

So comments finished and explaining the next verses are built upon the phrase in green "let us go on unto perfection"
Verses 6, 7 speak of the opportunity God gives as a illustration of rain, upon the herbs or the thorns,

Then in verse 9 the growth of the Christian is finally addressed as mentioned in verse1 as in "better things of you". Encouraging the readers onward to "perfection" because of Christ
Once again Christ is better than the Law.

The only suggestion on one loosing salvation or coming to a understanding then rejecting salvation is in the mind of those who have not read this correctly, No translation, no Greek needed, no in depth understanding of the Law needed,, just English language structure, after all Greek does not have punctuation

 

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

The Epistle to the Hebrews was written to a first-century community of Hebrew Christians who were being severely persecuted by both their fellow Jews and by the Roman government. The purpose of the Epistle to the Hebrews was to reassure these Hebrew Christians of the truth of the gospel that they had believed, to remind them of the superiority of Christ over Moses and the angles, to teach them the superiority of New Covenant over the old covenant, and to remind them of the danger of apostatizing from their faith. The Epistle to the Hebrews was not written to 21st century Baptist Christians using the using the terminology and phraseology of 21st century Baptists; it was written to a first-century community of Hebrew Christians using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church.

Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized.” However, this is only part of the evidence that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews was writing of water Baptism. The Greek word φωτισθεντας translated in our English Bibles as “enlightened” is an aorist participle in the passive voice, the cognate noun of which is the Greek word φως meaning ‘light,’ both literally and figuratively, especially in the Gospel According to John,

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. (NASB, 1995)

John 8:12. Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” (NASB, 1995)


In these passages, the NASB has the word “Light” capitalized because the light is Christ.

Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, writes,

Gal. 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (NASB, 1995)

Furthermore, the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

Therefore, being “enlightened,” when used figuratively as it is by John, becomes synonymous with being “baptized.” In baptism, one is clothed with the Light; that is, one is enlightened. Main stream Protestants, as did many of the Early Church Fathers, understand ‘baptized’ in Gal. 3:27 to be speaking of water baptism; most Baptists understand ‘baptized’ in Gal. 3:27 to be speaking of spiritual baptism. Either way, understanding the word “enlightened” in Heb. 6:4 to mean baptized into Christ is the most academically sound interpretation.

Moreover, we read in Hebrews 10:32-33 we read,

32. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,
33. partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.

Who are the ‘enlightened’ ones in these verses? Are they not Christians who are being persecuted? Are they not the very Chrsitians to whom the epistle is addressed? Where in the New Testament or other early Christian literature do we read of unregenerate sinners as being ‘enlightened’?

The Greek words translated in Heb. 6:4-6 as enlightened,” “tasted,” “becoming,” and “falling” are all aorist participles. The Greek verb translated in Heb. 6:4-6 as “crucify” is a present participle. Christians who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, but who subsequently fall away, find themselves in a situation in which it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

Relevance to the discussion?

N0w where do you see "finished" in the text, Tom?

Could you point that out?

And going to pause there, because this is the central issue and the focal point of the Writer in this passage.


Continued...

 

So we skip the key verses of the discussion?

You said...

...which misses the Writer's point that is the prologue to what he states in Ch.6.

He is not speaking about "basic salvation," he is speaking the fact that they do not even know the basics of the Hebrew Scriptures.

The rebuke is directed at those in the audience guilty of this.

First point is that they are told not to lay a foundation of these doctrines again.

Can you tell me how one would do that, Tom?


Continued...

 

And you miss this...

Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


What does he mean, Tom?

Secondly, "Therefore, let us go on unto perfection" is tied to Hebrews 5:1014.

Until you can properly place the "therefore" you will think in view is a Christian who cannot be renewed to repentance, and you will miss the very intent of the passage.

The "opportunity?"

The only way we make this an "opportunity" is that which the rain represents is yet to produce either result.

Do you think that Christians can bear thorns and briers?

Christ did not teach that:


Matthew 7:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


Christians can become unfruitful at times, but they don't bear evil fruit.

Thorns and briers are not fruit, just as a tare is not a believer.

The point is that he is rebuking laziness in regards to the revelation of God's Word, and has a specific focus on the Scriptures available to them then, which would have been the Hebrew Scriptures. The rain represents the provision of God, which these slothful hearers have not attended to.


Continued...

 

"Growth" is not in view, Tom:


Hebrews 6:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


There are two options here, those who are saved, and those who are not. Not Christians who do not apostatize and those who do.

So let's look at your conclusion again:

Better than what? lol

Where do you get that from what he states?

He says he is persuaded better things than that which he has just stated. You make void the entire warning altogether.


Continued...

 

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."[Hebrews 6:4-6]

Now, I think it was Brother Paul Washer who stated that this was written in a manner that if they could 'fall away', then they were not who they thought they were. Many 'tasted' Jesus, but when He exposed them in John 6, many left Him, never to return. By those who fall away, it shows the work of grace was never wrought upon their hearts.

Many around where I live preach if you ain't awful careful, you'll lose your salvation. They'll use Hebrews 6:4-6 as one of their 'proof texts.'
But I take comfort in knowing my salvation...which in reality is His salvation...rests on His cross work and not my works.

And a couple or so verses later in Hebrews "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation."[verse 9]