Does hardness of heart...

...really matter to God?

A Brother on here was talking about how his heart was not as hard as others, and that is why he did not reject Christ when he heard the gospel.

I started this thread because the other one is about to be closed.

In a word, no, our perception of hardness doesn't matter to God. I say "our perception", because we may perceive our or someone else's heart to be harder than another's. But, those are just human perceptions. There are time when we cannot see what God sees.

I agree with the Squire. Our pride often causes us to think of our own hearts as being more tender than the hearts of others, but in reality, every lost heart is the same, "deceitful above all things and it is exceedingly corrupt" to the extent that we are incapable of even understanding it. God can clearly see that. But we, alas, cannot.

Thank you Brothers for your postings. I was hoping for more to join in, especially Bro. mwc.

An agenda perhaps Willis?

On the other hand, I've heard of "evangelists" bragging on how hard their hearts were before they were saved. Something along the lines of "From The Electric Chair to Christ."

TCassidy said:

I agree with the Squire. Our pride often causes us to think of our own hearts as being more tender than the hearts of others, but in reality, every lost heart is the same, "deceitful above all things and it is exceedingly corrupt" to the extent that we are incapable of even understanding it. God can clearly see that. But we, alas, cannot.

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Let's not forget it wasn't merely hardness of heart, or the absence of this that was claimed. It was claimed the person's heart was pure with Matthew 5:8 quoted. In all of Scripture I've yet to witness any saint making this claim as to the why of their conversion. The not knowing how bad our hearts are arguments and defense aside.

I'm just replying to what's contained in this thread's OP.

Earth Wind and Fire said:

An agenda perhaps Willis?

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Nope. We were having a good debate, and I thought we were making headway when Squire decided to close that thread.

I refer you to this Forum's sticky "From the Mod II."

SovereignGrace said:

Nope. We were having a good debate, and I thought we were making headway when Squire decided to close that thread.

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Squire Robertsson said:

I refer you to this Forum's sticky "From the Mod II."

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Thanks for the clarification. I know it is according to your discretion. I was wondering why it was being closed so quickly. Thanks again.

I've heard a description of "hardness of heart" likened to butter and clay.
Under the warmth of the sun butter melts and clay hardens.

Rob

SovereignGrace said:

...really matter to God?

A Brother on here was talking about how his heart was not as hard as others, and that is why he did not reject Christ when he heard the gospel.

I started this thread because the other one is about to be closed.

Click to expand...

Where do we see the hardness of heart mentioned,
Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
They wanted their way and thus their heart was hardened and Moses wrote the divorce laws.

Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
The Jewish leaders hearts were hardened and He healed the man with the withered hand, what happened when He performed a life changing miracle that should have lead them to salvation? They rejected even more.
Paul made it very clear why people reject the gospel,
Romans 2:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Do you some do seek that is accept Christ while those with a hard and contentious heart do not obey the truth and obey unrighteousness and indignation all these come upon those who doeth evil. That would be everyone ever born because of our being totally depraved and yet, it is clear some who have a hard and impenitent they doeth evil and will not turn to Christ suffer God's wrath. But those who by patient and countenence in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality and eternal life, will receive Christ and avoid God's eternal wrath.

Job 9:
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

Can a man harden his heart against God and prosper? Cain hardened his heart and refused to that which was right.
Genesis 4:
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Abel had a heart that accepted God's promise and followed His command for a proper sacrifice for his salvation by Faith, Cain depended on his works and when God would not accept those works he hardened his heart toward God and killed his brother, it says his countenance fell.
John spoke of the event and stated this
1 John 3
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
How were Abel's works righteous, He believed God and offeered what God commanded.

revmwc said:

Where do we see the hardness of heart mentioned,
Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
They wanted their way and thus their heart was hardened and Moses wrote the divorce laws.

Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
The Jewish leaders hearts were hardened and He healed the man with the withered hand, what happened when He performed a life changing miracle that should have lead them to salvation? They rejected even more.
Paul made it very clear why people reject the gospel,
Romans 2:
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Click to expand...

Brother, none of this, I repeat, none of this answers the question of 'Does hardness of heart really matter to God.'

Do you some do seek that is accept Christ while those with a hard and contentious heart do not obey the truth and obey unrighteousness and indignation all these come upon those who doeth evil. That would be everyone ever born because of our being totally depraved and yet, it is clear some who have a hard and impenitent they doeth evil and will not turn to Christ suffer God's wrath. But those who by patient and countenence in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality and eternal life, will receive Christ and avoid God's eternal wrath.

Click to expand...

Here's where your theology goes off the rails, imo. The bible avers 'NONE seek God. NONE. Adam after he sinned, ran and hid when God called unto him. Moses was in the desert for 40 years when God came to him in the burning bush. David was out in the hills tending the sheep when God sent Samuel to him. Saul of Tarsus was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians when Christ knocked him of his donkey. You will not find one bible account of an unregenerate that sought God...it's just not there. They are incapable of doing so.

Job 9:
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.

Click to expand...

Still does not answer the question in the OP.

Can a man harden his heart against God and prosper? Cain hardened his heart and refused to that which was right.
Genesis 4:
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Click to expand...

Still does not answer the question in the OP.

Abel had a heart that accepted God's promise and followed His command for a proper sacrifice for his salvation by Faith, Cain depended on his works and when God would not accept those works he hardened his heart toward God and killed his brother, it says his countenance fell.

Click to expand...

Abel was born with the same depraved heart that his brother had. So, what caused him to differ from Cain? See John 1:13, Colossians 2:11, Romans 9:16, 1 John 4:7, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, just for starters.

John spoke of the event and stated this
1 John 3
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
How were Abel's works righteous, He believed God and offeered what God commanded.

Click to expand...

And even to believe in God is a work of God. See John 6:29.

Now, how did you know your heart was not as hard as others again?

You're putting too much ability on man and not enough on God. You act like once a sinner's heart gets to a certain hardness level, God can't crush it. That's not the God we serve.

SovereignGrace said:

Brother, none of this, I repeat, none of this answers the question of 'Does hardness of heart really matter to God.'


Here's where your theology goes off the rails, imo. The bible avers 'NONE seek God. NONE. Adam after he sinned, ran and hid when God called unto him. Moses was in the desert for 40 years when God came to him in the burning bush. David was out in the hills tending the sheep when God sent Samuel to him. Saul of Tarsus was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians when Christ knocked him of his donkey. You will not find one bible account of an unregenerate that sought God...it's just not there. They are incapable of doing so.


Still does not answer the question in the OP.


Still does not answer the question in the OP.


Abel was born with the same depraved heart that his brother had. So, what caused him to differ from Cain? See John 1:13, Colossians 2:11, Romans 9:16, 1 John 4:7, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, just for starters.



And even to believe in God is a work of God. See John 6:29.

Now, how did you know you heart was not as hard as others again?

You're putting too much ability on man and not enough on God. You act like once a sinner's heart gets to a certain hardness level, God can't crush it. That's not the God we serve.

Click to expand...

John 1:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
As many as receive Him, hmm if as you say none come to Him how shall they receive Him, yet He says clearly all who believe on His name are of God.

How do they believe,
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
They hear the word of God.
Jesus stated that men do the rejecting of Him, we see
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Here yet again we see it the unbeliever who has closed his eyes, ears and heart that is a hardened heart. If they have their eyes, ears and heart opened what di Christ say would happen, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, ...and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
That is a person with a pure heart that will be converted and healed by Christ in Salvation.

SovereignGrace said:

Brother, none of this, I repeat, none of this answers the question of 'Does hardness of heart really matter to God.'


Here's where your theology goes off the rails, imo. The bible avers 'NONE seek God. NONE. Adam after he sinned, ran and hid when God called unto him. Moses was in the desert for 40 years when God came to him in the burning bush. David was out in the hills tending the sheep when God sent Samuel to him. Saul of Tarsus was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians when Christ knocked him of his donkey. You will not find one bible account of an unregenerate that sought God...it's just not there. They are incapable of doing so.


Still does not answer the question in the OP.


Still does not answer the question in the OP.


Abel was born with the same depraved heart that his brother had. So, what caused him to differ from Cain? See John 1:13, Colossians 2:11, Romans 9:16, 1 John 4:7, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, just for starters.



And even to believe in God is a work of God. See John 6:29.

Now, how did you know your heart was not as hard as others again?

You're putting too much ability on man and not enough on God. You act like once a sinner's heart gets to a certain hardness level, God can't crush it. That's not the God we serve.

Click to expand...

Colosians 2:
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

In Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead and once we have believed we are complete in Him. What was completed?
We all had and still have a body that sins,
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. therefore as believers we must follow verse 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We are buried with Him in Baptism that is the outward ritual of Water Baptism shows we are buried to the old and alive to the new yet we are also Baptized with the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation because He enters into us and makes us Spiritually alive. That is what was totally and utterly depraved in all of us. We are Spiritually dead and must be Spiritually born afresh,
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Until salvation we understand nothing of God nothing of the Spiritual things God has to offer. But once the Spirit has come and indwelt us and we continually confess sin then and only then do we begin to understand spiritual things. Until then they are hidden. But when the Gospel is presented we don't need to understand it we just need to heed the Conviction of the Holy Spirit and Belive on the Lord Jesus and Call upon the Lord for Salvation.

revmwc said:

Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts,

Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus was both angered and grieved at the hardness of the Jewish leaders' hearts. So yes, harness of heart does matter to God.

SovereignGrace said:

Brother, none of this, I repeat, none of this answers the question of 'Does hardness of heart really matter to God.'


Here's where your theology goes off the rails, imo. The bible avers 'NONE seek God. NONE. Adam after he sinned, ran and hid when God called unto him. Moses was in the desert for 40 years when God came to him in the burning bush. David was out in the hills tending the sheep when God sent Samuel to him. Saul of Tarsus was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians when Christ knocked him of his donkey. You will not find one bible account of an unregenerate that sought God...it's just not there. They are incapable of doing so.


Still does not answer the question in the OP.


Still does not answer the question in the OP.


Abel was born with the same depraved heart that his brother had. So, what caused him to differ from Cain? See John 1:13, Colossians 2:11, Romans 9:16, 1 John 4:7, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, just for starters.



And even to believe in God is a work of God. See John 6:29.

Now, how did you know your heart was not as hard as others again?

You're putting too much ability on man and not enough on God. You act like once a sinner's heart gets to a certain hardness level, God can't crush it. That's not the God we serve.

Click to expand...

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Of course He shows mercy to whom He will, Psalm 4:1 Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.

Will He deny anyone who comes to Him asking for mercy?

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Did Jesus show them mercy when they ask?

Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

A gentile woman came asking for mercy, did Christ show her mercy?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Whom seems God will reward all those who diligently seek Him, sounds like some come seeking Him doesn't it?

Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

They seek him with a whole Heart and that heart is a pure heart that seeks after Him.

revmwc said:

John 1:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
As many as receive Him, hmm if as you say none come to Him how shall they receive Him, yet He says clearly all who believe on His name are of God.

Click to expand...

And praytell, who received Him? "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[[John 1:13] Unless born of God, none will receive Him.

How do they believe,
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
They hear the word of God.
Jesus stated that men do the rejecting of Him, we see
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Click to expand...

Yes they must hear the word of God. Correct. Now, why do some believe and some reject? It all stems from the heart. All sinners have hard hearts. They will all reject the gospel unless first quickened by God. Man left to himself can not hear the gospel. They hear it with their natural ears, but their spiritual ears are deaf.

Here yet again we see it the unbeliever who has closed his eyes, ears and heart that is a hardened heart. If they have their eyes, ears and heart opened what di Christ say would happen, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, ...and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
That is a person with a pure heart that will be converted and healed by Christ in Salvation.

Click to expand...

So they can do this on their own? That's 'Bob the Builder' theology. The unregenerate need a circumcision of the heart, or also a heart transplant. Read Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26. Then read Philippians 1:29.

Once God has purified their heart, then they can come to Him, and not before.

revmwc said:

Romans 9:
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Of course He shows mercy to whom He will, Psalm 4:1 Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness: thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress; have mercy upon me, and hear my prayer.

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I agree with this. Now, why does He have mercy on some and not others? If it is because they did something...anything...then He chose to not harden them based on something they did. If this rings true, then God does show favortism. Your side of the debate state God does not play favorites. But if He does not harden them because of something they did or were doing, then He favored them.

Will He deny anyone who comes to Him asking for mercy?

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Of course not. Now, why do some ask for mercy and others don't?

Matthew 9:27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Did Jesus show them mercy when they ask?

Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

A gentile woman came asking for mercy, did Christ show her mercy?

Click to expand...

Now, I agree with these. Now, why did they ask and others didn't? I know, their heart was not as hard. Now, how do you know this? Hmmmmm?

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

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And again, who seek Him? Those He draw. Those He draw WILL come to Him. Period. End of story.

Whom seems God will reward all those who diligently seek Him, sounds like some come seeking Him doesn't it?

Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

They seek him with a whole Heart and that heart is a pure heart that seeks after Him.

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And what do people do to keep their heart pure?

Brother, you're chasing your tail and don't even realize it.

I am trying to show you the errors of your theology. No one's heart is pure. It is uncureably wicked by mankind, yet God is the only One who can cure it. No one's heart was pure pre-salvation. No one came/comes to God with a pure heart of their own making. Regeneration purifies the heart, and then they come to God, seek Him, and not before. Period. End of story.