Featured Debunking Unconditional Eternal Security: Hebrews 10:39

1 John 1:8-2:2. 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.'

Now, you have to reconcile Galatians 5:19-21 with 1 John 1:8-2:2 because the Scriptures do not contradict themselves. So get on with it.

 

Have not sinned Does not equate to AM SINNING NOW. If we say we have not used the bathroom, we make him a liar. That doesn't mean your in the bathroom right now.


In Galatians Paul is talking to "SAVED" believers.

Galatians 3
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


He then gives DIRECT repeated warnings of jeopardizing their Salvation.

Galatians 5

21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


He is warning YOU, "saved" believer.

 

There's a lot of rationalization here. It sounds like you are trying to keep your cake and eat it too. You can't have it both ways. (You either eat the cake or keep it).
You either sin or have sinned or you haven't. If you have sinned you are in need of a Savior. True?

 

True.

Also

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
It really does get forgiven, it really does get cleansed.


Lets say Jesus Christ forgives you for stealing, I can't come up to you the next day and say what are you doing today, THIEF!?

When you were forgiven you are truly forgiven. You are innocent and not a fake innocent.

Better then innocent.

2 Corinthians 5
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

In a court room God didn't look at what Jesus did then look at you and hit a gavel and said "NOT GUILTY".

"not counting their trespasses against them," is more then that. It means the charges were dropped, a notch better then not-guilty.


Its not saying well you are guilty or free to be guilty. When you repent and confess your wrongs to God, He really does forgive you and you are really made innocent in everyway.

God's priority is YOU. The laws and rules were made for you, he's not out to please a satisfaction of a law.

The possibility of not sinning again is great precisely because God is looking out for you.

1 Corinthians 10
13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

^God gives you full right and full ability, To avoid and never sin again.

God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able. The problem is your hitting a minor sin at the starting line of the race. Your sin being you can't believe how much temptation you really can handle. You already expect yourself to fail, this too is a sin.

 

Seriously out of what woodwork to these guys come from?

 

The Cross.

 

As Christians we do sin but we do not live in sin! When we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us of that sin and we need to confess that sin and ask for forgiveness! Only Christ was perfect and sinless! If we do not sin then why did God send His Son to die on the cross?

 

Oh boy! This is like getting blood out of a stone! Let's try again. 1 John 1:8. 'If we say [Present Tense] that we have [Present Tense] no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'
I think everyone here knows that you're deceived, but it's good to have confirmation from the Bible.

Now get on and reconcile Galatians 5:19-21 with 1 John 1:8-2:2, if you are able.

 

The analogy fails of the intent of John's statement, you would need to modify it to "If we say we do not use the bathroom..."

Saying that would be contrary to what is being said. Perhaps you are not currently in the bathroom now, but all of us know we will be in there at some point.

John speaks of past and present sin in our lives:



1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


One question I would ask is do you dismiss John's teaching because you are skeptical of the Word of God, as evidenced in the other thread? Do you doubt the veracity of John's authority as an Apostle and a writer of Inspired Scripture?

Secondly, I would simply ask, are you seriously convinced that you do not sin anymore? You have no need to confess sin in the body?


God bless.

 

Darrell the debate is on this verse now:

1 Corinthians 10
12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

God always gives you a way out.

One has NO EXCUSE for sin. One's license to sin has been REVOKED.


Now if you got a better explanation of 1 Corinthians 10. I want to hear it.

Maybe explain how when God forgives you its a phony act, still have sin.

We got a Lamb who takes away sin of the world. You got one that takes what? nothing?

 

Matthew 18

23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


I bold and underlined when FORGIVENESS happened.....the man is "SAVED", his sins were forgiven by God almighty.

And then the next BOLD and underline, Same fellah.......straight to toasty hell. He's got to repay ALL that was owed.


Who is this warning for? Peter? I'm pretty sure a 5 year old can figure the morale of the story.

But I think a SINNER living in Sin wanting to keep their Sin, someone who requires a license and an excuse to continue the evil they do everday would hide from the word of the Lord.

 

There is no debate. Are you missing what Paul states here?

12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Does that not mean Paul accounts for the fact that we can...fall?

And what is the reason for that fall?

Secondly, let's put this back in it's context, and let Paul finish up this thought:


1 Corinthians 10:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.


You miss an extremely important part of this teaching because you have yanked it out of it's context to use it for your personal purpose. This is not surprising for someone who is skeptical of the Word of God in the first place.

Or is it?

Back up, Utilyan, and notice the "example" given, and then tell me whether in view is a Christian being "good," or a warning not to fall as those in the Wilderness fell.

It is true...God gives every man an opportunity, but that does not mean that men will take advantage of that opportunity.

So tell me, my friend...did you flee from idolatry? When? How?

How can you possibly see this as nullifying John's teaching?


Continued...

 

False argument.

Not one person has endorsed a license to sin, and furthermore, you err grievously in your thinking by implying any one ever had a license to sin.

Simply absurd reasoning (and forgive me for calling it that (that is, reason, I maintain it is absurd)).

And this is typical of the L.O.S.T.: you jump from proof-text to proof-text when your reasoning is examined.

First Corinthians does not nullify a great many teachings in the New Testament which make it clear believers are going to sin after salvation. That we will not be completely free from sin until our bodies are redeemed.

This...


1 Corinthians 10:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


...does not teach that believers are sinless.

Your doctrine was rejected in the First Century, it is rejected today. Perhaps this is why you try to call John's teachings as well as other Inspired Writers into question. You have to dismiss Biblical teachings so your own are not exposed by the light of Scripture.

Could you quote me on that?

You are confusing positional sanctification with progressive sanctification. The former is our position in regards to God in the eternal perspective, the second is our condition from a temporal perspective.

Here is an example of a born again believer sinning:


Galatians 2:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.


Or do you think hypocrisy is not sin?

So if you're looking to Peter as an example of Super-Saint, you are going to have to explain why this man, a great man of God despite his failures and sin, could sin...

...but you do not.

First...who is this "we" you speak of?

You aren't going to find anyone that is going to agree with your Doctrine here, I am pretty sure of that.

You aren't going to see the Catholic Church guilty of this error either, because their views on sin are often targeted. Complaints about Confession, for example.

Secondly, you reveal a very shallow understanding of the Cross of Christ and Scripture in general. Christ did not remove sin from the world, that is quite evident to most of us.

You need to understand that the Work of the Cross deals with the penalty for sin. Old Testament sacrifice performed a similar function, but it wasn't complete. It had to be repeated because it did not take away sins. When they offered up those sacrifices, it was basically in the temporal plane that remission of sins were granted. Whereas Christ's offering removed the need for sacrifice in the life of the believer, because remission of sins was made complete.

That doesn't mean that sin is completely removed from our existence. We still remain in the flesh, which is unredeemed.

You want to understand the control your flesh has, my friend...try fasting. Your flesh will soon reveal it's impact in your life.

While it is true that Christ does remove sin from our lives, this is a never-ending process of gradual progression, one which relies heavily on the believer's understanding of exactly what God declares sin in our lives.

Think back to when you were saved, and now: have things been made aware to you and revealed as sin that previously you did not consider sin?

Well guess what, that is going to continue happening the rest of your life.

But you have hand-cuffed yourself in place with your unorthodox view of Scripture, which makes me think your growth is going to be a very, very...slow process.

Here it is again:

Now, answer the question already posed to you: are you going to publicly state, "I Utilyan...no longer sin."

That is what you are saying in subtle terms, my friend, might as well go ahead and boldly proclaim your belief.


God bless.

 

I'm satisfied with this said right here.^

 

I no longer sin. I'm in this category here: 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Not some of it.....ALL OF IT.

The idea God can't help anyone stop sinning, is a sin itself. If your surprised Jesus would help anyone, that too is a sin.

1 john 1
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

John 5

14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.”

39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

47“But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

 

Again, the false argument. God does remove sin from our lives but to believe you never sin is absurd. Peter sinned after being born again, but not you?

You are doing the very thing John speaks of...

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I guess you never need to confess your sin. How do your priests feel about that. Have you spoken with them about your sinless perfection? My guess would be no.

And I guess you need not our Advocate:

1 John 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


Can you tell me who John is speaking of here? Who is Christ Advocate for?


God bless.

 

You're looking for excuses. When you sin......IT IS YOUR FAULT.

I really want to hear it. Who's fault is it when you sin?

Oh its God's fault, he didn't give me enough elect dust.

Its God's fault he never gave me the capacity to not sin.

Oh no..... It is Your Fault. Completely. Repent and sin no more.


Jesus Christ himself says stop sinning or something worst will happen. Who am I going to listen to you? with a "surely you will not die" doctrine? or Christ?

 

Another false argument...I take full responsibility for my sin. At no time have I alluded to anything else. I do not use the fact that I am still in unredeemed flesh a an excuse, but, neither has God forgotten that fact either.

You teach an ancient heresy that not even Catholics embrace, so, if you say you are a Catholic you are the perfect example of a rogue adherent who would likely be excommunicated from the Catholic Church if you tried to teach your doctrine within the Catholic Church.

Again, why is it that Peter sinned after being born again but you do not?

My suggestion is that you contact Rome right away, and let them know that their true Pope has arrived, and you will be happy to step in and straighten out their erroneous belief that men must confess their sins.

As I said, not much point trying to debate such basic error. That you think you do not sin will keep you from actually putting sin away in your life. You make God a liar, and essentially place yourself on a par with Christ, Who is the only man who will ever live a sinless existence here on earth.

You, my friend, fall into the same category as the rest of us. You sin, we know it, you know it, and it is not until you confess your sin to God that you will benefit from our Advocate.


God bless.

 

Anyone CAN sin, as in the free option is there. Everyone has sinned and this can be forgiven.

But everyone has the free option to never sin again.


The difference between You and I, Darrell is when we both pray to God to keep us out of sin you don't have the faith nor belief that he really could.

You are looking at Darrell asking can he stop sinning when you should look at Christ he says STOP SINNING.