Featured How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Jesus tied discipleship with salvation. There is no salvation without the full intent of discipleship. Even the thief on the cross was a disciple for the last hours of his life.

The specific command to the man concerned things that were holding him from the kingdom. Possessions were clearly going to hold him back from following Jesus. Some people know how to hold onto possessions loosely and not need to give them up because they are not holding them back.

As for me, I did not own anything when I entering into life with Christ. I was 14. However, I did give up my life to follow Jesus and things were much different afterward - and quite difficult - because I had to live my life differently from my peers. My faith has cost me financially many times, and that's fine because I DO have a problem with holding onto material things and I am learning how to avoid clinging to them.

 

No, but there's also no evidence of it either. That's conjecture. I try to avoid biblical conjecture when I am determining what the Bible teaches about doctrine.

If you think I believe that, you've completely missing the point and you don't understand at all what I am trying to communicate.

 

It's no more "conjecture" than your view.

 

Pure conjecture.

 

kyredneck I agree with your scenario and with that thought heaven will be empty... Nada, Zilch, Nobody there!... I guess OP left grace out!... The law won't get you there... You deserve it?... Think again all have sinned and come short of the glory of God... How To Get To Heaven When You Die?... I'm getting there by the birth, life, crucified death, and resurrection of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ whose sinless life's blood paid for my sins and I know of no other way... Brother Glen

 

In response to my assertion,

"Jesus tied discipleship with salvation. There is no salvation without the full intent of discipleship. Even the thief on the cross was a disciple for the last hours of his life."

our friend replied:

I've been teaching through the Gospel of Luke over the last three months, so please excuse the heavy reliance on Luke. These are the passages at the forefront of my thoughts:

Luke 9:23-24
Then [Jesus] said to them all, “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it."

Luke 9:57-62
As they were walking along the road, someone said to [Jesus], “I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus said to him, “Foxes have dens and the birds in the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Jesus said to another, “Follow me.” But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” But Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Yet another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but first let me say goodbye to my family.” Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Luke 14:25-26
Now large crowds were accompanying Jesus, and turning to them he said, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 11:29
"Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

John 12:25-26
"The one who loves his life destroys it, and the one who hates his life in this world guards it for eternal life. If anyone wants to serve me, he must follow me, and where I am, my servant will be too. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him."

Ephesians 4:20-24
(Please note that Paul references the foundational message that his audience had previously heard)
But you did not learn about Christ like this, if indeed you heard about him and were taught in him, just as the truth is in Jesus. You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image—in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.

1 John 2:3-4
Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments. The one who says “I have come to know God” and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person.

 

V. 30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

But you want to present the load as being heavy and the yoke difficult . You like the idea of heaven being very hard for us to attain, don't you?

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1 Jn 5:3

I'm seeing a pattern of you cherry picking passages that make this way appear to be as difficult and heavy to bear as possible. You ever take time out to do this?:

........ rejoice that your names are written in heaven. Lu 10:20

You ever meditate on the truth of this?:

Maybe you need to go back to Bible School. 1:14

 

Indeed it is. But the point is - THERE IS A YOKE.

To enter into Christ's yoke, you have to set aside your own life.

We cannot attain "heaven" at all. It is worse than hard, it is impossible. Christ has life within Himself and He calls us to enter into that life. But to enter into His life, we must become His disciple.

Right. They are not grievous, however THERE ARE COMMANDMENTS to be kept.

You seem to be operating from some sort of presupposition about my intentions. I am not "cherry picking" unless you mean that I am pulling out certain key portions of much longer passages explaining the very thing I am presenting. I appeal to the entirety of the Gospels AND the rest of the New Testament for my position. I could have quoted much more, but that would have bogged down the post. Go back to the Gospels and examine what Jesus had to say about entering into eternal life. Then take a look at the other New Testament writers - including Paul - and see how they reaffirmed the teaching of Jesus and applied it to their current circumstances. It's very simple.

Sure. When I see the power of God at work in my life in dramatic ways, I often get excited about that. But most of all, I am delighted that my life in found in Christ and I am with Him each day, even when outwardly exciting things are not happening before my eyes.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

I have been presenting scriptures here, explaining how I understand them, and responding to your pushback. You seem to be claiming that I don't understand the scriptures. If so, please teach me then. Show me from the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels how one enters into eternal life without any intention of discipleship. If you find such a passage, then show me how it undermines the words of Jesus that I have "cherry picked."

 

6 Wherewith shall I come before Jehovah, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt-offerings, with calves a year old?
7 will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6

Has God changed His requirements from His children? Is it harder now and MORE complex now under the new than it was under the old?

 

I've always found Mark 10 to be the deciding factor for me:

Mar 10:17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Mar 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'"
Mar 10:20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth."
Mar 10:21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
Mar 10:22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!"
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God."
Mar 10:26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?"
Mar 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God."
Mar 10:28 Peter began to say to him, "See, we have left everything and followed you."
Mar 10:29 Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
Mar 10:30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
Mar 10:31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first."

 

That wasn't Christ's answer to the initial question, it was Christ's answer to RYR's next question, "What lack I yet?" And then, "If thou would be perfect....."

Is this kingdom of God the same as defined in Ro 14:17 and 2 Pet 1:11?

Saved, delivered, from what GT?

 

I has previously stated:

I have been presenting scriptures here, explaining how I understand them, and responding to your pushback. You seem to be claiming that I don't understand the scriptures. If so, please teach me then. Show me from the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels how one enters into eternal life without any intention of discipleship. If you find such a passage, then show me how it undermines the words of Jesus that I have "cherry picked."​

Instead of Jesus, our friend responded with Micah:

There are some things that have changed. Most notably, God has revealed Himself in Jesus, has taught clearly the immediate availability of the Kingdom to all who consent to enter.

What you quoted is a great passage of scripture that plainly supports what I have been saying all along. We are called to live righteously (justly), to live a life of love (kindness) and to engage in discipleship with God (to walk humbly with thy God).

When you try to do this, you will find that you cannot do it by your own effort. That is where both the Old and New Testament saints cast themselves upon the grace of God and lived a life of discipleship where they were able to experience reformation in the Old Testament era, and transformation in the New Testament era.

With the work of Christ and the giving of the Spirit, walking with God is now internalized in a way that it was not in the Old Testament era.

I don't know where you are getting the weird idea that ANYONE here is claiming that things are harder and more complex than in the Old Testament or that we are advocating that those who lived before the Christian era could not know God or expedience salvation. That is a FALSEHOOD that you keep bringing into this discussion.

The truth remains that Jesus clearly taught (as did Moses and the other witnesses for God in the Old Testament) that a right standing with God is tied to an intent for discipleship/obedience.

If you think I am in error, please quote anything that Jesus said to the contrary and demonstrate how that violates what I have written in this thread.

 

That's a pretty good articulation of how 'Lordship Salvation' doctrine' comes across. Webdog once called it "front loaded works", which I think is a good articulation also.

 

5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10

You think it's impossible for His children to NOT have a right standing with Him? I KNOW it's possible because the scriptures are full of examples of His displeasure towards His own. This began with your disagreement with the idea that the thief on the cross could have been an erring child of God. I am convinced that His redeemed heavenly born children are capable of doing everything they're told NOT to do, and that includes committing a capital crime.

 

No I don't.

It's obvious you have no idea what I think, or else you are so desperate to "win" this discussion that you willing to ascribe false positions to me.

It appears you are also unable or unwilling to demonstrate your position from the teachings of Jesus, as requested. You have also failed to refute my basic assertions regarding the intention of discipleship as the place where one enters into the kingdom of God (aka eternal life). In fact, just about every scripture you have posted reaffirms my position.

Yes, obviously.

I simply noted that you have NO basis to make a claim either way about the spiritual condition of the thief on the cross before he encountered Jesus there. All we know of the man are the very few verses in the Gospels. That's no place to build a theology.

Capable? Yes. Likely to do so? No. Especially if they have engaged in discipleship with Jesus on a consistent basis. When one is in a discipling relationship with Jesus, old desires and attitudes began to go away and get replaced with new desires and habits. There are going to be areas where we will remain quite weak for a long time, but the discipling work done in other areas will erode those strongholds.

Ultimately, we can be assured that we will be completed by Christ and made ready for reigning with Christ (Revelation 22:5b) in the new heavens and earth.

So to sum up your false assertions so far:

1.) I do not believe the Old Testament saints were bound for destruction before Christ.
2.) I do not believe it is more difficult for someone in the New Testament era to be right with God than it was in the Old Testament era.
3.) I do not advocate a works-based salvation ("front-loaded" or not), but I do assert - based on the explicit teaching of Jesus and the New Testament writers - that the intent for discipleship (laying down one's life in favor of Christ's) is required to enter into eternal life in the kingdom of God.
4.) I do not make claims about the thief on the cross except that he was certainly in a position to have clarity about the nature of the world, his own nature, and the nature of Christ at the crucifixion of Jesus. I am certainly not building a doctrine on his experience.
5.) I do not assert that a person who has entered into life with Christ is free of instances and periods of rebellion or faithlessness against God, but I will say that it would not be a life pattern.
6.) I do not believe that someone who has fully entered into life with Christ will ever lose that life because the One Who grants it is faithful to complete what He has begun.

From now on, please deal with what I have written instead of concocting straw man arguments or assuming I hold all kinds of unbiblical arguments.

And for at least the third time, please show me anything from the teaching of Jesus that would support you position and undermine my position.

 

I've made no 'assertions about you personally (but I have come to conclusions concerning evangelicals in general), so please chill out. Go back and check, what I've done is ask questions.

You insist that every child of God will indeed forsake all and become a disciple. If they don't forsake all and become a disciple they're not a child of God. Is that correct?

I will tell you up front (and I'm NOT into giving personal testimony), I've NEVER considered myself to be a disciple, never felt worthy to be called His disciple, never felt any compelling unction from Him to forsake all and become His disciple, yet there's nothing that has affected my life as much as loving Him, loving His word, and loving His people. I can't imagine life without that fellowship, it's the grandest thing that's ever happened to me. But I've a real problem with considering myself to be a disciple.

Concerning disciples, what do you think of secret disciples? You know, like so many who believed secretly because of fear of the Jews.

 

There’s your biggest mistake. I have never claimed or owned the label of evangelical. I am part of the Baptist movement, not someone whose spiritual ancestors came out of a mainstream church in a rejection of liberalism (which is the current definition I hold of an evangelical).

Apparently, you are reacting to what you think I should be saying instead of what I am actually saying.

Not quite. You have told me what I happen to think, that I am someone who thinks it is harder for a New Testament era person to come to faith than an Old Testament person, etc. But let’s leave that behind in favor of actually discussing the real issue.

In the big picture sense, yes. That is the call of Jesus and that’s the message we are commissioned to present. However, most people cannot immediately set into faith and it is in reality a process that may take days, months or years of breaking down the resistance to the call of Jesus. If God is drawing a person, they are under the spiritual pull of God and they will be received on the basis of what they can surrender at the time. Like human spiritual births, things don’t necessarily happen in an instant, but things are being pushed to their eventual resolution. During the birthing process, one’s life can still be lost if one decides to reject God and not move further into life. (The parable of the sower/soils and the warnings in Hebrews point in this direction.)

Becoming a disciple – at least in common American practice – is not a structured event and Jesus calls us into the obedience we can handle. At the very beginning, one comes into faith and discipleship to Christ by simply surrendering all one knows oneself to be, to all one knows Christ to be. Someone just coming into faith will often not know themselves as well as they thought, and they certainly do not know that much about Christ yet. But in the end, it is not about knowledge, but the attitude of a student/learner with the intent to follow Jesus wherever He leads.

You may be a victim of your church’s lack of teaching of the gospel. I could say the same from my church experience up to the age of 14. It was all about a transfer of sins in exchange for righteousness from Jesus that was pled by Jesus before an angry Father God who wanted to destroy us. Instead of the Father God beating up on us, he somehow exhausted his anger on Jesus (because he needed to hurt someone) and we got to go free, not to be bothered again until we died. At that point, we got to leave our bodies and this earth behind to go to Heaven. But that’s not the gospel. That’s a certain theory of atonement that has no necessary connection to the Kingdom of God and the call to discipleship that Jesus taught. What I heard as a child didn’t make a bit of sense to me. It seemed to be all about legal maneuvering, a God who didn’t want to accept me but was forced to do it because he had already beaten up on Jesus.

But when I was 14, I was out of town and heard a preacher teach about Jesus calling us to trust and follow Him. That made perfect sense to me and I responded to that gospel immediately. My church didn’t embrace a message that called people into an active relationship for several more years, but when that happened, many church members (and church leaders) came to faith in Jesus.

Sounds like you are already a disciple, even though you don’t know what to call it. It may have to do with what you think a disciple means. A disciple of Jesus is a student, an apprentice, of Jesus. One who learns from Him and lives his/her life in relation to His teachings and lifestyle.

While not the ideal situation (most situations are not ideal, at least at the beginning), it is absolutely a valid experience. It is part of the birthing and discipleship process. There are many secret (or simply, underground) disciples in parts of the world where being a Christian is a death sentence. Many of the early Christians met in secret and communicated quietly because of the circumstances.

 

I don't see anything there about repentance. '"Men and brethren, what shall we do?"........."Repent......and be baptized......" (Acts 2:37-38).