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Featured Luke 10:1 and 17 which Version is correct?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by revmwc, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Reading through the KJV and the NASB we see Jesus sent out 70 in groups of two. But when we go to the NIV and ESV we see He sent out Seventy two. Now following the numbers 7 x 10 would be 7 spiritual perfection with ten ordinal perfection and we have God spiritual completion with God's perfect order. While 72 would be 6 x 12, six being the number of man and 12 equals Governmental perfection. So we would have man and perfect government so which is correct? 70 or 72
     
    #1 revmwc, Apr 4, 2016
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Where does the bible teach that 7 = spiritual perfection and that 10 equal ordinal perfection?
    Where does the bible teach that 6 is the number of man and 12 equals Governmental perfection?
     
    #2 TCassidy, Apr 4, 2016
  3. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    12 equals government perfect?

    12 disciples, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 months in a year all point to government perfection???

    Anywho... what is the manuscript evidence????????? That is the real question. You can point to numerology all you want. But you have no objective basis to make any assertion other than "it fits my theology" to have 70 since it supposedly represents God's spiritual completion and perfect order.

    Further, which reading likely explains the rise of the other??? What other significance is there in the number 70 (as in the table of nations in Gen. 10) or the LXX???

    Even more further, what do the textual critics have to say? They can offer helpful ideas.

    Here is a helpful tool for the MSS data: http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php
     
    #3 Greektim, Apr 4, 2016
  4. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    1. Does the account of the sending of 70 or 72 disciples have importance symbolically?
    1a. Does Jesus or the gospel writers the give an answer to that question?​

    1b. If you answer in the affirmative, what is the symbolism and which number better expresses that symbolism?​

    2. Which number has better textual support?
    2a. Among what textual traditions does the data occur?

    2b. What would be the reason for the variant?
    ​
    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Apr 4, 2016
  5. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I think there is some symbolism of 70 actually when considering the table of nations in Gen. 10-11 and the role of Abraham and Abraham's seed (Christ) to resolve the sin of the nations and bring them the blessing of the nations. This is part of Luke/Acts narrative. Jesus has brought about the blessing of the nations promised to Abraham in Gen. 12 as a remedy to Gen. 10-11.

    But as "rev"mwc pointed out inadvertently, there is then reason to disregard that since a scribe may be more apt to change from 72 to 70 for that exact theological reason (or the numerology one he is so fond of). In other words, the more difficult reading is 72. So internal evidence leans towards either 70 or 72, which is why internal evidence is always ever only corroborative for me, never probative.
     
    #5 Greektim, Apr 4, 2016
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Luke 10:1 (UBS/NA 27) Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἀνέδειξεν ὁ Κύριος [omits καὶ] ἑτέρους ἑβδομήκοντα, καὶ ἀπέστειλεν αὐτοὺς ἀνὰ δύο πρὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ εἰς πᾶσαν πόλιν καὶ τόπον οὗ ἤμελλεν αὐτὸς ἔρχεσθαι.

    Luke 10:1 (Byz) μετα δε ταυτα ανεδειξεν ο κυριος και ετερους εβδομηκοντα και απεστειλεν αυτους ανα δυο προ προσωπου αυτου εις πασαν πολιν και τοπον ου εμελλεν αυτος ερχεσθαι

    [Hint: See the [omits] for the textual variant in the verse.]

    [Hint #2: ἑβδομήκοντα is the same in both verses.]

    Luke 10:17 (UBS) ῾Υπέστρεψαν δὲ οἱ ἑβδομήκοντα μετὰ χαρᾶς λέγοντες· Κύριε, καὶ τὰ δαιμόνια ὑποτάσσεται ἡμῖν ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου.

    Luke 10:17 (Byz) υπεστρεψαν δε οι εβδομηκοντα μετα χαρας λεγοντες κυριε και τα δαιμονια υποτασσεται ημιν εν τω ονοματι σου.

    [Hint #1: No textual variants.]

    [Hint #2: compare εβδομηκοντα to εβδομηκοντα in verse 1.]

    Ah hah! But read verse 1 (or 17) in an NA pre 27th edition and we find Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἀνέδειξεν ὁ Κύριος [omits καὶ] ἑτέρους ἑβδομήκοντα δυο, καὶ ἀπέστειλεν αὐτοὺς ἀνὰ δύο πρὸ προσώπου αὐτοῦ εἰς πᾶσαν πόλιν καὶ τόπον οὗ ἤμελλεν αὐτὸς ἔρχεσθαι.

    Now for a little study. SEVENTY (ἑβδομήκοντα) is found in the majority of all manuscripts. The problem is a few respected manuscripts include the word δυο after the word εβδομηκοντα making it ready SEVENTY TWO. The word δυο is omitted in א (appeared only in the hand of a marginal corrector) A C L W Θ Ξ Ψ families 1 &13 the Majority, f q and various others. Prior to NA 27 the reading was considered canon, but after NA 27 the reading is considered spurious. As both the NIV and the RSV (from which the ESV was edited) pre-date NA 27, it stands to reason they would follow the older conventional wisdom and include the δυο. Newer, more accurate, versions rightly omit the δυο and read SEVENTY.

    And, low and behold, verse 17 has the same scribal error! Do I smell a rat? Probably. Keep reading!

    This is a fairly common scribal error called "Transposition" because a word is moved (or transposed) from one spot in the text, where it belongs, to another spot in the text where it does not belong. The word δυο belongs in the text where it says they were sent out "two up" (ανα δυο) but was transposed to where it caused the later confusion. But what about verse 17? This appears to be scribal harmonization. As he continued his copying he noticed the two verses did not say the same thing so he "fixed" verse 17 when he should have "fixed" verse 1. :)

    So the whole cabalistic thesis based on spurious numerology and an even more spurious scribal error is proven to be without merit.
     
    #6 TCassidy, Apr 4, 2016
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  7. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? What is this stuff friend? Frown

    Please provide some Scriptural proof for your assumptions on 7 being perfect and 10 being 'ordinal'. Confused

    As to the OP 72 is what I would preach.
     
    #7 Internet Theologian, Apr 4, 2016
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Seven in the Hebrew is Shevah the root is savah it means to be full or satisfied, have enough. So the word seven is dominated by this root. We see on the seventh day of creation God rested, all creation was completed or perfected. God instituted the Shavath as the day of rest. Greek of course is hepta while the Latin is septem. So seven is connected to perfection or completion. It deals with time as is seven days, seven years and many other sevens. The seventh day completed all of creation and its beauty. As you study through the root savah we see another derivative Shavagh to swear or make an oath. In Genesis 21:28-30 we the “seven ewe lambs” these guiding us to the satisfaction or fullness of the oath. Then we see Beer-sheba, “the well of the oath.” We see the seven ones of Ephesians 4:4-6, which complete the believer spiritually.

    Ten perfection of divine order. God’s law for Israel given in Ten Commandments and they were complete. God also laid out the tithe as a 10th part and it was complete. For Redemption Money we see Exodus 30:12-16 and Numbers 3:47 when paid it was complete. We see too the 10 virgins of the parable Jesus spoke, they were prepared and when the Bridegroom came all was completed. All in perfect order, God’s perfect order.

    So 7 X 10 = 70 represent the significance of Spiritual completion in Diving order, so seventy sent out would represent Christ Spiritual work seen in God’s perfect order.

    Now seventy two as we see in the NIV and ESV. 6 x 12. Six the number of man for man was created on the 6th day. God also appointed six days for man to Labor. What is very interesting is that the generation of Cain are listed in 6 generations, Cain represents the natural unregenerate of the human race. Revelation give the number of a man with the Beast of the Tribulation, the number of man is six while the number of the beast is 666 and why 666, this represents the unholy trinity with the beast, the false prophet and satan. The Beast and Anti-Christ are known by their gematria, if six is the number for secular or human perfection then the number 666 is triple that. So six is definitely the number of man.

    Now 12 as Perfect Government. As mentioned in an earlier thread, 12 Tribes of Israel, or should we say 12 sons. We see in the New Testament, 12 Apostles, which many say there were 13 and yet we see that there are 12 foundations for New Jerusalem, each having the name of an Apostle. The Twelve gates containing the names of the twelve tribes. The twelve pearls of which each gate is and the twelve angels seen in connection to this great eternal home of believers.


    So if 70 were sent out as the KJV and NAs state we would see Spiritual completion with Divine order in the ministry of the 70 while the 72 of the NIV and ESV would the number six in secular or human perfection connected with perfect government.

    Which text is correct the TR used in the KJV or another? 70 or 72? Edited caught some spelling errors and since we get graded for spelling now I needed to correct them, hopefully I didn't miss any.
     
    #8 revmwc, Apr 5, 2016
  9. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Found another spelling error and needed to correct it.
     
    #9 revmwc, Apr 5, 2016
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The NET footnote supports 72 (more difficult reading) and also the LEB has 72. But, all things considered 70 works for me. :)
     
    #10 Van, Apr 5, 2016
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Looking through the textual apparatus on my UBS Fourth Edition Greek N.T. (dated 1993), it appears that 72 is found in only four manuscripts, including Codex Vaticanus and Codex Bezae. Around 1,000 manuscripts, including Codex Sinaiticus have 70.

    I admit that I'm biased, being a Traditional Text man, but the issue seems rather plain to me. :)
     
    #11 Martin Marprelate, Apr 5, 2016
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  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So now you are a Hebrew expert?
     
    #12 TCassidy, Apr 5, 2016
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Nope just showing what it means, a great Hebrew dictionary and a few commentaries will lead you to the meaning of the words.
     
    #13 revmwc, Apr 5, 2016
  14. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4 Member

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    Let us assume that revmec is wrong. Let's assume the designations of 'biblical numerology' is in error and there is no such teaching about numbers in the Bible. QUESTION: why did the Holy Spirit seem to emphasize certain numbers in scripture, i.e. three, six, seven, 13...among many others?

    In other words...why did John tell us "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." So, why is 666 the number of a man (in this case antichrist)??? And...is that number connected to the day man was created(the sixth day)? How about the height of Nebuchadnezzar's statue or the width of that statue? Is that number connected to Goliath's height? Yes/no/why?
     
    #14 Calypsis4, Apr 5, 2016
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The Hebrew word is שׁבע. It is transliterated "shebah" and pronounced "shib-aw." It is the cardinal and ordinal number 7. It comes from the Hebrew word שׁבע (pronounced shahbah)
    and means "to swear, or take an oath." The reason for that is the oath was said to be "to the 7th" meaning the statement was true from day one of the week through day seven of the week and would never change.

    The Hebrew word for "complete" is תּמים (pronounced tamiym or taw-meem). This is the same word translated "perfect."
     
    #15 TCassidy, Apr 5, 2016
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    IMO, 'symbolism' in sending out of the Apostles by two lies here:

    ,,,doubled,,,because the thing is established by God Gen 41:32

    17 Yea and in your law it is written, that the witness of two men is true.
    18 I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Jn 8:17-18

    And I will give unto my two witnesses,...... Rev 11:3

    The principle is consistent throughout the scriptures:

    Two Angels at Sodom; Moses/Aaron; Joshua/Caleb; David/Solomon; Elijah/Elisha; Zerubbabel/Jeshua; Ezra/Nehemiah; John The Baptist/Jesus Christ; first the incarnate Son and then the Comforter: Paul/Barnabus; etc..
     
    #16 kyredneck, Apr 5, 2016
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