Featured Will the return of Christ be in 2 stages?

These two passages you cited talking about are two different different events that you are confusing as both referring to the same event as the rapture 1 Thess 5:2-4 is talking about the rapture while Mark 13:20 in which Jesus states, “20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days”, he is answering the question the disciples posed earlier in the same chapter about when the destruction of the temple and the overtaking of Jerusalem would occur (not the rapture), “And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?5 And Jesus answering them began to say...” And so begins Jesus reply to the disciples question in Mark 13 in which you quoted.. Adam Clarke wrote “It is very remarkable that not a single Christian in the destruction perished in the destruction of Jerusalem though there were many there when Cestius Gallus invested the city” (Source Herschel W. Ford, Seven Simple Sermons on the Second Coming). Thus the fulfilling of the "elect" being "saved" as Jesus prophesied in the verse you quoted Mark 13:20.

 

Here is the one verse I would give you to show He is reigning now as King as prophesied at not fulfilled in 2 stages,
"20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," (Ephesians 1:20-22)

 

One other other passage that shows His resurrection and ascension fulfilled the prophecy of Him as King, "8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8) Scripture tells us the last thing that will be put under Him is death and this occurs when we receive our resurrected bodies."26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.27 For he hath (PAST TENSE "HATH")put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him." (1 Corinthians 15:26-27)

 

Calypsis,

I don't deny Christ has not returned, however there is no scripture in the entire Bible to support the idea of a third coming (once 2,000 years ago, once for the rapture of the church, and once at the end after the tribulation). By my math one plus one plus one equals three, hence this is 3 teaching comings (though I realize you may not want to refer to it as such as the "two stage theory of Christ's return" sounds much better and less contradictory to scripture. The rapture and the end occur at the same time.

 

I don't believe the 2nd coming has occurred, what post did I say that in? I didn't, nor do I believe that. I think posters can see through the straw man you are attempting to create by basically painting me as a preterist. Christ will return and rapture the church and the earth will be destroyed. You believe the rapture occurs before the tribulation. What I have consistently posed on this thread and reject as unbiblical is the doctrine of the two stage theory (or as I'' think in laymen's terms teaching is basically proclaiming 3 comings of Christ). What is the Greek word for "coming" in the New Testament referring to the pre-tribulation rapture coming and what is the Greek word for His coming after the tribulation? If they are one in the same, I would expect a distinguishment that the writers of the New Testament would use, or did they use the same Greek word for "coming" to refer to both separate events?

 

Calypsis,

You did meet the challenge and produced a few writings from early church fathers, I did not deny this, I acknowledged you produced such, but countered with stating #1 ) the writings you cited were few in number #2) there are far more early church father quotations in the same link you provide arguing the opposite of what you believe # 3) I then challenged you further in the same post to produce historical writings from time of the reformation to before 1800 which you failed to do, but rather in your reply above you utilized ad hominem attacks such as calling me a "confused person" If the two stage theory is true, it should be easy to # 1) provide citations from the reformation period to before 1800 from historical writings and # 2) provide many of them. I do not believe you can. Why are these writings not present? Do you believe the church simply believed in heresy by denying a third return of Christ (or if you prefer the term "two stage theory") from the time of Luther and Calvin until after the 1800's? (If you are correct and the two stage theory is true, that is the only conclusion). I wish you well as well.

 

Hi again Brother Revmwc,

Concerning Mathew 24:3 and the disciples question of "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?", Jesus answered this in 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.". This could be interpreted to indicate the second coming was to occur right then (in which case if I accepted this interpretation and as I also believe Matthew 24 is mainly discussing the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews led away captive into all nations, and the burning of the temple I would have to be a full blown preterist), however, the word "then" (used by Matthew more than all New Testament writers put together) can mean an event that will happen right away, or it can mean the order in which events will happen. In other words, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the Jews being lead away captive in all nations must necessarily precede Christ's return (all of these things would happen first) "and then"-in the order of events mentioned-- "shall appear...the Son of man coming in the clouds".

Keep in mind, at the time of the fall of Jerusalem, the disciples were to escape to the mountains. Then, there was time to flee as Christ also warned believers to do in the Olivet disourse to be saved, but when Christ comes there will be no time to flee. At the 2nd coming believers will not flee into the mountains, but will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds

As far as your question about when 1/4 and 1/3 has occurred, you are assuming one should take literally all Bible prophecy. Such expressions like the sun, moon, and stars being darkened were used by Jesus in the same

way the Old Testament prophets did: figuratively. For example, in the prophecy regarding the fall of Babylon, which was to come “as destruction from the Almighty” Isaiah prophecies: “He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the STARS of heaven and the constellations thereof SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT: the SUN shall be DARKENED in his going forth, and the MOON shall not cause her LIGHT TO SHINE…Behold, I will stir up the MEDES against them…and Babylon…shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah (Isaiah 39:9-21). The fulfillment of this prophecy is evident. The kingdom was given to the ancient people known as the Medes (Daniel 5:28-31). This was not an end-of-the-world prophecy, even though it was described in language about the sun, moon, and stars being darkened, likewise neither was the tribulation spoken of by our Lord in the Olivet discourse concerning the burning of the temple, overtaking of Jerusalem by the gentiles, and the scattering of the Jews into all nations.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Calypsis,

You are overlooking an important fact-There is not one verse anywhere in the entire New Testament that mentions a seven year tribulation period. I wish you well to brother or sister and have enjoyed our discussion.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Calypsis,

I will answer your last question as this is a debate forum and you have posed me questions above, thus I will answer them like I have all your prior questions, then per your wishes I will not post any further with you on this thread, unless you continue to post. How can He possibly come at a time when he is not expected and at a time when He is expected...at the same moment? I will point you to 1 Thess 5:2-4, "2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." The elect will be looking for Him, thus the day will not "overtake you as a thief", but the reprobate will not be looking for Him, but rather be mocking and saying "4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (2 Peter 3:4). To the elect they look for the promise of his coming and therefore will not be overtaken "as a thief", however the nonelect mock Him ever coming and will be overtaken as a thief when He comes. One 2nd coming of Christ, to one not expected, but to the other expected.

 

Calypsis4,

If the 7 year tribulation period was Biblical, I would expect at least one New Testament writer to have mentioned it, but you readily admit above none did. The reason being is because it is not Biblical.

Of course, I know of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks and disagree with you misapplying it to support your teaching of a 7 year pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Lord willing I hope in the next few weeks to start a thread on Daniel's prophecy and you are more than welcomed to participate if you can put up with me (lol), but that is a whole other topic and we are getting off the subject of the OP which is the two stage theory of the return of Christ. Unless you wish to correspond further regarding the OP this will be my last post to you (I know I said that in the prior post, but after I posted your post above appeared in my in box).

 

No I have an alert that tells me when someone has responded to my posts. It went off when I was composing post # 57. At any rate, it is not important have a good evening.