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Featured The Parable of the Lost-Centering on the Lost son

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Mar 24, 2016.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Well excuse me pastor Bob....but while i can see what you are suggesting it is not built upon a solid biblical foundation. i do not think we have liberty to turn the word of God revealed into clay that we just make it say what we want it to say.

    A sinner can no more"give his heart "to God than a patient during the middle of open heart surgery can take over for the doctor as the Dr says....I have done all i can do, the rest is up to you!

    You offered your thoughts publically and it brought a response. We react in here everyday to each others posts....that is what happens here. when you questioned my posts i read what you offered...but now you seem to indicate it is a one way street.

    I did not post anything questionable at all. I just showed the text had nothing to do with either verse...

    We have you along with Rmac seeking to offer directly opposed to what we believe. We answer what you offer and would expect the same ...
     
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  2. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    That's not the issue, brother. I am not suggesting anything other than "the language" of Proverbs 23:26. I am merely asserting that "the language" is not foreign to the Word of God. You keep saying that I am misapplying the passage when I am not applying it in the first place. I'm simply borrowing the language. Just as a son can "give his heart" to his father, so I can "give my heart" to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I'm sorry if you feel this is what I am doing. I simply find it tiresome to respond when you've refuted something I haven't stated. I will gladly respond to your refutation to my actual arguments. After all, that's what a debate forum is for.
     
  3. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. After the son is a son he can give his heart to his father. And after we are sons of God we can give our hearts to God. In fact, such is the result of our sonship and not the cause of it. :)
     
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  4. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Brother Bob,

    That is some serious gymnastics there brother! With all due respect you are applying it by borrowing it. It is exactly how you used it. The passage isn't soteriological in nature but you are forcing it into soteriology. You are applying it and borrowing it in attempt to prove your practice and teachings. It doesn't work, it is a bad hermeneutic and it does not fit nor does the passage justify 'giving our hearts' to Jesus. It isn't practicing 2 Timothy 2:15.
     
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  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So then Esau was accepted by God for he is the Son of Isaac, and Ishmael was accepted by God for he was the son of Abraham. They were sons and called sons. This Parable and these references to the elder son, as backed up by Calvin and Henry, clearly show that Christ was showing the Pharisees and scribes as the elder son, going by what you have stated that they are called sons and therefore are believers and so by your belief is that all that are called sons are therefore saved would carry over to the Pharisees and scribes as they are seen in the elder son.

    Yet it is clear from the text and the meaning Jesus drew from it that the elder son clearly was not saved by the actions he showed. The Prodigal was wayward in sin who is like the publican and sinners received by the Lord. Why because they came to Him in belief that He would save them. We see who the Parable was directed to in Luke 15:
    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

    He spake this parable to the Pharisees and scribes. Clearly an object lesson for them. They are seen in the Elder son, they have been in their minds been faithful to God. They haven't been rewarded as these publicans and sinners have. They have been faithful, followed the rules, offered sacrifices, write scripture and are faithful. They expect there works to save them and that point was driven home when Christ said the father of these prodigals stated " thou art always with me" and they felt that was them. Now we see:
    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Was the elder led by the spirit to be as he was? The elder had been with the father and faithfully worked for his approval all his life, he was his fathers son. Israel had been a called out nation the Pharisees and scribes were sons of Abraham and had always been SONS of Abraham, did that make them saved? They were in their minds "always with" God always belonged to God and yet were they actually sons?
    The Prodigal represented, the Publicans, harlots and sinners that Christ accepted, for we see Luke 15:
    "1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
    2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."
    This was the reason for the Parable. The ones murmuring about the sinners being received and even having a meal with them were not saved. So too the Elder sons is the type or mirror of them, therefore unsaved by the meaning of the story. Just as the 99 sheep were lost how do we know because they were left in the Wilderness, not in the sheepfold. Then we see this right before Christ speaks the parable of the son,
    Luke 15:
    10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

    The prodigal is the sinner that repented, is it by works no way. He came to himself we are to he realized Himself a sinner came to Christ. Very Clear how salvation works, realize you are a sinner and that God the Father formed the plan and Jesus became the sacrifice for your sin and Call upon Him for Salvation, the Holy Spirit revealing it to all through His convicting them. All God's work none mans.

    Romans 14:
    8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
    9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    Whether saved or lost we are the Lord's, every human ever born has belonged to Him, for He died and rose and revived to be the Lord of the living (saved) and the dead (lost). We all belong to the Lord.
     
    #65 revmwc, Mar 25, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Let's see how this holds up! Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said Son,..." He was in torments yet called a Son? But you state that after the Son is a son he can give his heart to his father. The rich man called to "Father Abraham, and Abraham called him Son. But we know the rich man was lost even as a Son. Just as the older brother was lost and the prodigal came to himself and knew he was a sinner on need of salvation and went to the father in confession.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    As an Israelite, genealogically he would also be a son of Isaac and a son of Jacob and who knows, maybe even a son of David.
     
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    But as a son was he saved? The older son in the story of the Prodigal was an example of the Pharisees and yet the father said you have always been with me, so was he the example of a faithful believer or a lost child?
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    We were talking about the rich man burning in hell, right? As Abraham's descendent:

    8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
    9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mt 3

    I think the simile goes beyond that to include Israel in general and their mindset (at that time) portrayed by the eldest son. The youngest son portrays the incoming of the Gentiles; bringing God's 'other sheep' into the fold.

    Compare:

    28 But he was angry, and would not go in: and his father came out, and entreated him.
    29 But he answered and said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine; and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: Lu 15

    With:

    19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. Ro 10

    44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

    ....and there's many other examples. Jealousy exhibited from the firstborn to the younger is a recurring theme in the scriptures foretelling/portraying the enmity between the Jews and Christ and His infant church.

    When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27:17,18
     
    #69 kyredneck, May 10, 2016
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  10. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Being a son of Abraham, a descendant of Abraham, and being addressed as a descendant does not make one saved - note John 8:37ff.

    Also note 1 Timothy 4:10. :)
     
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  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    28 But he was angry, and would not go in: and his father came out, and entreated him. Lu 15

    Reminds me of Jonah:

    10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil which he said he would do unto them; and he did it not. Jonah 3
    1 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry.
    4 And Jehovah said, Doest thou well to be angry? Jonah 4
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Agreed but see post #23 for one who says being called a son makes one saved.
     
  13. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Context
     
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  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The context of the parable is very clear, The 99 who needed no salvation were the lost Pharisees who saw themselves as safe and saved, but they were very much lost. The lost coin clearly showing the Holy Spirit shining the light so that the Lost could be found and the Prodigal was lost and in sin but came to himself we are told and saw what the Father had and chose to come to the father as a servant for he was not worthy to be called a son. But the Older brother represented the Pharisees who had in their eyes been with God and served Him faithfully yet they were lost and Undune as was the older son who represented them . To which #23 addressed as me judging the older as lost and not having that right. The whole point of the parable was to show the Pharisees just what their state was and that Jesus came to save sinners.
     
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Very clear? Srsly? Clear as mud, maybe [Edited]

    Huh? o_O The 99 who needed no salvation were 99 lost Pharisees who were lost? And they, the 99 Pharisees who needed no salvation, were really lost? And you say the context of the parable is clear? Srsly? o_O :confused: :eek:

    The lost coin was just that, a LOST coin that when its owner found it, they rejoiced. It is that way when God saves sinners.

    The son was his son already. Just because he was in the pig sty did not negate that fact. When we sin, we are much like the son in the pig sty, but that does not negate the fact we're still His son. That is the context of that parable. We have eternal sonship with the Father through Christ's efficacious crosswork.

    This part of the parable I admit I have struggled to find the meaning of. But the older son was still the father's son. I don't think the Pharisees fell under that title. Jesus told them they were of their father the devil.[John 8:44]

    [Edited] Jesus never came to save the (self)righteous, but to call sinners to repentance. The Pharisees were not amongst those He was seeking to save.

    [Post has been edited to remove insulting comments directed towards another member; JonC]
     
    #75 SovereignGrace, May 11, 2016
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  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Here we see the key to the parable:
    Luke 15:
    "2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
    3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,"

    The Pharisees murmured, so Christ spoke this parable unto them.

    Now notice the 99 and where the Shepherd left them.

    verse 4 says He left "the ninety and nine in the wilderness," now why would they be left in the wilderness and not in the sheep fold? John 10:1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."
    Maybe because the Pharisees were thieves and robbers? The wilderness what does the wilderness represent? Well we know Jesus was lead up into the wilderness to be tempted, Hebrews 3:17 "But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?" The Israelites wandered in the wilderness because of their sin, the 99 represented the Pharisees who though they thought they were of God were actually in sin and the wilderness. But Jesus the shepherd left Heaven to seek His lost sheep, and the publicans and sinners came to Him and the lost sheep, those who come to salvation were found and the shepherd celebrated.

    How do we know the 99 weren't saved and represented the Pharisee's?

    Verse 7 "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
    Just in their own eyes but lost and in the wilderness, the Pharisees felt they needed no repentence, but did they? Of course they did.
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Then Luke 15:
    8 "Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
    9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
    10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth."

    Now we know the Holy Spirit is the light. The ten coins of the headdress of a wife in those days represented her commitment to her husband, much like the rings of today. If one coin was lost from that headdress it meant she had been unfaithful. So she diligently sweeps lite a candle, the Holy Spirit, Psalm 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." god word is the light to salvation and the Holy Spirit shines that light to all the lost. John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." Jesus as the light came so that the lost could be found. John 9:5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." Again the light came to shine to draw sinners to Him. Now where is that light? Philippians 2:15 "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" We as believers are the light that shines for those who don't believe, as our lives are to be a witness to those who are lost. 1 John 1:8 8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." the Spirit bears witness and shines the light for the Lost to see.
     
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The whole point of the Parable of the lost it is not three separate parables but one parable. That is how many get it confused, see it as one, the shepherd Jesus came into the world to seek His lost sheep, and found them. The Holy Spirit shining the light in this world for the Lost to see. The Father waiting in Heaven for the lost son to return.
    Then there are those just people that is those who see themselves as just who need no repentance. like the Pharisees who murmured. They were like the older son, how do we know?
    Luke 15:2 "And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."
    Notice what the older brother does here,
    "27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
    28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
    29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
    30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf."
    The Pharisees murmured and said "This man receiveth sinners" the older brother states "as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf." Can you see it the comparison? Jesus came and received sinners and the fatted calf was killed for the sinners.
    The 99 sheep were left in the wilderness because they saw themselves as just, the lost coin was found just as a sinner is drawn by the Holy Spirit, and the lost son returned but the older brother like the Pharisees instead of rejoicing murmured and complained that His father never did that for him and said:
    "28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
    29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:'
    Just like the Pharisees to whom Jesus spake this parable, one complete parable showing all three Persons of the God Head in their distinct functions.
     
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Don't disagree. They all proint to the same thing...the lost being found.

    BINGO!! He came to save His sheep. Period. End of story. The goats He will not seek, He will not save. He found them, and is still finding them.

    Yet most will never see that Light, as He does not shine in their hearts.

    Bzzzzzzz!!! Wrong!! If He is waiting on us to approach Him, there would be none there but God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit, the angels who never fell, and the fourst beasts around the throne. God seeks, which shows He is not waiting, but searching for them, finding them, and saving them.

    As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”[Romans 3]

    But you said those 99 who needed no repentance were the Pharisees. That is not the context. The Pharisees needed to repent, but failed to do so.
     
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Brother mwc...you posted this...

    Look at what you posted here. The lost SON. Not everyone falls under that appellation. Not everyone is God's son. Only those He chose from the creation of the world are His sons. They are His via adoption.
     
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