Featured Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it

No where in the entire first chapter of John does it say Christ has reconciled the world. It does say behold the Lamb of God who is taking away (present tense) the sin of the world. This is consistent with God reconciling the world through Christ one sinner at a time by the washing of regeneration.

 

I absolutely do deny that Christ is the 'means of salvation.' He is the Saviour! He saved us (Matthew 1:21; Titus 2:13-14 etc.). He might possibly be called the means of reconciliation (Colossians 1:20). You can plough your way all through the Scriptures and you will never find Him being called the 'means of salvation.' Faith in Christ is, I suppose, the means of salvation.

I also deny that Christ is the propitiation for all humanity, but these are not the questions I was asking. I am interested to know if you know what 'propitiation' actually means.

 

Perhaps we might return to the thread topic, accurately stated as Penal Substitutionary Sin Offering.

 

Martin, you can deny scripture till the cows come home. Christ is the means of salvation. No man comes to the Father except through Him.

 

Hi John, you need to support your inventions with scripture. All this reading between the lines is without merit. Yes scripture denies humanity is reconciled with God, but supports God is reconciling humanity to Himself. You cannot change "reconciling" to reconciled no matter how often you repeat your belief.

Pay no attention of how JohC presents my views, unless supported by quotes. Next he will have me denying the incarnation.

 

"The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of his Father; and purchased not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto him."

 

Jon, you seem to be floundering around trying to find a basis in scripture for conflating the purchase with the reconciliation. Paul tells us God is reconciling what you claim has been reconciled.

 

I quoted three Scriptures in my post, none of which you have referenced. Van, as ever, you are confusing the hammer with the blacksmith, the ship with the captain. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Saviour, not the means.

Also, although you may be able to copy Greek words out of a book, I am not convinced that you know what 'propitiation' means in English.

I am unable to find any such word as 'propitiationary' in the English language. Perhaps you mean 'propitiatory'? But if so, what is a 'propitiatory shelter' and where is it found in Scripture? And what text are you thinking of when you speaking of God 'placing' people in Christ? Perhaps you have misinterpreted Colossians 1:13?

 

JonC it is time to end this discussion. First you conflate reconciling with reconciled, then you claim because Jesus was both man and God, that somehow reconciled humanity. LOL

There was a reason Christ suffered and died on the cross Jon, and it was to provide the means of reconciliation for the whole world.

Please provide a quote where Christ's birth, a union of man and God, reconciled humanity. None will be forthcoming.

Lots of people believe God sent His Son into the world to become the propitiation for our sins.

 

“[Christ Jesus], Whom God purposed for a
Propitiatory shelter” (Romans 3:25)."

Just google it, you are embarrassing yourself. Spelling errors? Really. We are trying to discuss what Christ accomplished on the cross, and I am not sure you have anything but "taint so" to add.

And since you are unaware God places people into Christ, I am sure you pulled an Admiral Nelson when you studied Romans 6:3.

If you have something to add, please share it.

 

Romans 3:25. ''Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith.' God is propitiated by the blood of Christ our Saviour shed upon the cross towards those whom He gave Him to save (John 6:38-39; 17:2; Hebrews 2:13b).

'Til on that cross, as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied-
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.'

And in what way do you see Romans 6:3 as meaning that God 'places' people into Christ. On what basis does He do it? Are you thinking of water baptism? Where does faith come into it? I am not (yet ) saying you are wrong; I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

 

FWIW on occasion I chime in with the fact that we are progressing through the time continuum while God exists in the state of eternity.

Scripture prepositions and verb tenses are a challenge going from one state of being to the other.

Yes we have all we need with the word of God but it is limited to our condition, when we try to expand the here and now work of God's salvation of mankind attempting to apply the temporary with the eternal we are bound to be confused in the attempt to expand our limited vision to include the eternal glory of God.

e.g. How do we explain the concept of color to a blind person?
Or melody to a deaf person?

NKJV Ecclesiastes 8:17 then I saw all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it, yet he will not find it; moreover, though a wise man attempts to know it, he will not be able to find it.

So why not just enjoy what we have?
You don't need to take graduate courses in digestion, assimilation and absorption to enjoy a meal.

Just eat.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


HankD

 

When I was in my 30's (Long time ago) I ended up in the psychiatric ward (Aha! we thought so!).

Jesus delivered me with a simple passage of scripture.

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

HankD

 

I said you believe Christ has, past tense reconciled humanity. I say scripture refutes that view.
Next you conflate humanity and human nature. They are not the same thing.
For sure I reject you position, reconciling does not mean reconciled.
You have repeated and repeated the claim humanity must be reconciled for individuals to be reconciled. I asked you to support this claim because on its face it is ludicrous. You have not provided any scripture to support this claim.
I have denied that the incarnation reconciled the whole world to God. These arguments come across as someone throwing one argument after another against a wall, hoping something will stick.
Unless someone undergoes the washing of regeneration they are not reconciled.