Did Jesus distribute the bread and fishes to 15,000 people in person?

Did Jesus distribute the bread and fishes to 15,000 people in person?


John 0611

TRStephanus 1550

11ελαβενδετουςαρτουςοιησουςκαιευχαριστησαςδιεδωκεντοιςμαθηταιςοιδεμαθηταιτοιςανακειμενοιςομοιωςκαιεκτωνοψαριωνοσονηθελον


Westcott Hort

1ελαβεν ουν τους αρτους ο ιησους και ευχαριστησας διεδωκεν τοις ανακειμενοις ομοιως και εκ των οψαριων οσον ηθελον


ASV 11 Jesus therefore took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down; likewise also of the fishes as much as they would.


Darby

11 And Jesus took the loaves, and having given thanks, distributed [them] to those that were set down; and in like manner of the small fishes as much as they would.



ESV

11 Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated. So also the fish, as much as they wanted.

HCSB

11 Then Jesus took the loaves, and after giving thanks He distributed them to those who were seated—so also with the fish, as much as they wanted.


NASB 1 Jesus then took the loaves, and having given thanks, He distributed to those who were seated; likewise also of the fish as much as they wanted.




NIV

Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.


NIV UK

1 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.


NLT 11 Then Jesus took the loaves, gave thanks to God, and distributed them to the people. Afterward he did the same with the fish. And they all ate as much as they wanted.



NRSV

11 Then Jesus took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted.


RSV

11 Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted.


Wycliffe

11 And Jesus took [the] five loaves, and when he had done thankings, he parted to the men that sat to the meat [he parted to men sitting at the meat], and also of the fishes, as much as they would.


Geneva

11 And Jesus took the bread, and gave thanks, and gave to the disciples, and the disciplesto them that were set down: and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.


KJV

11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciplesto them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.



WEB (World English Bible)

11 Jesus took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributedto the disciples, and the disciplesto those who were sitting down; likewise also of the fish as much as they desired.

YLT

11 and Jesus took the loaves, and having given thanks he distributed to the disciples, and the disciplesto those reclining, in like manner, also of the little fishes as much as they wished.


Manuscripts omitting the Red Letter Portion : p66, p75, Aleph, B, A

Manuscripts containing < μαθηταιςοιδεμαθηταιτοις > : Majority


I estimate there were ca. 5,000 men plus 5,000 women plus 5,000 children.

Then do you think Jesus distributed all the loaves of bread and fishes to 15,000 people in person?

Another question is whether the miracle of proliferating the bread was performed only by Jesus or by Jesus and disciples?


Eliyahu

 

Thanks to everyone for the input on this thread.

Some of the points which still need more attention are:

- Proliferation of the Bread. - This is the issue different from any jobs or work, because
if Jesus increased the Bread from 5 loaves to thousands of loaves, and the disciples delivered them to the people sitting on the lawn ground, it means there was no miracles on the part of the Disciples.
But if Jesus increased the quantity of the bread, and the disciples did the same, then it means the disciples performed the miracle too. This is totally different from Baptizing or Building something.
It is a matter of miracle by the disciples.

- There are apparent difference between the manuscripts, texts, and translations.

For example
(NIV) Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

(KJV) 11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.

Apparently, KJV states that Jesus didn't distribute the Bread to the crowd in person while NIV said so.

If we treat KJV and NIV teach the same, what is the point to study the textual differences and variances?

Again this gives us the lesson that the miracles needed or used the human involvement

 

Thanks to everyone for the comments.

Some of the key points that we should learn from this passage are :


1. Creative Proliferation


Jesus fed the people with 5 loaves of bread. 5 loaves must have increased to thousands of the loaves. This is a kind of another Creation different from Making or Building or Doing. Such Creation is beyond the Law of Conservation of Mass (the Principle of Mass Conservation), which means the miracle. So, the Creative Proliferation cannot be compared to the works of building or baptizing the people.

That was done not only by Jesus Christ, but also by His Disciples!


Many people may think that Jesus Himself was doing the miraculous Creation of the Bread out of 5 loaves, then the disciples delivered and served diligently, which is not taught in the genuine Bible here.

We can read and find that Jesus did the creative proliferation of the bread, and the disciples did the same! Then they served the people.

Read the passage again from KJV and from TR.

This Creative Proliferation is different from any human works today.


This is commensurate to the story in 2 Kings 4

The woman did the creative proliferation, not Elisha did it.

In verse 42-44, the man from Baalshalisha (Not the man of God who may be Elisha) performed the Creative Proliferation of the Bread for 200 people. This is very similar to what Jesus has done for 5000 plus.


2. Variance of Manuscripts, Texts, Translations


Apparently, as I illustrated in the OP, there are clear differences between Alexandrian manuscripts and Byzantine manuscripts, between W/H text and TR, between MV and KJV. We must discern what is wrong and what is right. In this case, the Alexandrian copies omitted the words which give us the precious lessons.

TR and KJV are correct, while WH, NA, MV are wrong!

If anyone think and say the difference is nothing, then he or she can ignore any difference and variance of the Bible texts and translations.

Compare the above translations.


3. The Lesson that we can learn from this


God doesn’t do the miracle without the involvement of human participation.

We may pray, and wait for the answer from God. It is our participation. We need to be prepared to challenge the reality as well.

The Creative Proliferation didn’t take place by Jesus alone, but the same process was done by the disciples.


If Jesus alone created the bread for 15,000, that spot must have been full of bread and the disciples would have been busy in delivering the bread. But the actual happening must have been that even in the hands of the disciples, the creative proliferation took place. If you cannot believe this, read 2 Kings 4 thoroughly.

We may be missing many opportunities because we try to stay away from the miraculous work when we pray God to do miraculous work for us.

It is a matter of the shortage of our faith.



Eliyahu



2 Kings 4

1. Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the Lord: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen.

2 And Elisha said unto her, What shall I do for thee? tell me, what hast thou in the house? And she said, Thine handmaid hath not any thing in the house, save a pot of oil.

3 Then he said, Go, borrow thee vessels abroad of all thy neighbours, even empty vessels; borrow not a few.

4 And when thou art come in, thou shalt shut the door upon thee and upon thy sons, and shalt pour out into all those vessels, and thou shalt set aside that which is full.

5 So she went from him, and shut the door upon her and upon her sons, who brought the vessels to her; and she poured out.

6 And it came to pass, when the vessels were full, that she said unto her son, Bring me yet a vessel. And he said unto her, There is not a vessel more. And the oil stayed.

7 Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy children of the rest.

42 And there came a man from Baalshalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.

43 And his servitor said, What, should I set this before an hundred men? He said again, Give the people, that they may eat: for thus saith the Lord, They shall eat, and shall leave thereof.

44 So he set it before them, and they did eat, and left thereof, according to the word of the Lord.

 

Only in Gospel John of TR and of KJV(YLT etc) it is implied that the Creative Proliferation was done also by Disciples. Other gospels didn't mention the details about it.

he distributed to the disciples, and the disciplesto them that were set down


Eliyahu

 

Throughout the Bible, no one could perform the miracle without the Holy Spirit.
Therefore we can believe that Disciples must have performed the miracle by the Spirit of Christ in any case.
It must be absurd if one thinks that Jesus alone performed the Creative Proliferation when He fed 15,000 people.
If Jesus performed the miracle alone and distributed to the multitude ( as stated in NIV, etc),
6 seconds per person, 10 person per minute, 600 per hour, 25 hours for 15,000, or 20 hours for 12,000. Without considering the distribution service, just Creative Proliferation would have taken several hours at least. There must be the participation of the disciples in the Creative Proliferation as we read the case of 2 Kings 4.
Away from Jesus or in the presence of Jesus, Disciples must have exercised the Believing in Jesus, Following and Obeying Him.
This portion may not be the lesson for the beginners, but for the grown-up Believers who believe the Teachings, especially the Teaching in Mt 10:8 ( Heal the Sick, Cleanse the Lepers, Raise the Dead, Cast out the Devils was true ).


I think I explained enough.


Eliyahu