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vessels of wrath

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HankD

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="HankD,

Hello Hank....good imput.




Apart from God's enabling grace vessels of wrath will express their sin nature daily. When the confession uses this expression , it is simply saying that God as Creator is under no obligation to do anything for them except to be their righteous judge.
That He sets his love on the elect is purely MERCY. God does not prohibit the vessels of wrath from seeking Him.....they do not want to, even when the gospel is preached to them.....they are truth suppressors.
I am not sure what you object to here? The natural default position of the sinner....is to sin;
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

eccl8
11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:

13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.

I guess I'm straining at the gnat but looking at these passages through the calvin lens the 4 passages you gave in the o/p.

God did not just leave the vessels of destruction in their state of destruction but did something (fitted - katartidzo) to them (similar to the predisposing of the elect) before the time continuum was initiated. Perhaps allowing them to express their evil in a "free" manner thus God vindicates Himself (so say the scripture) to the rest of His creatures having intellect, emotion and will.

Given - It's an area of debate, dispute, etc...

HankD
 
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Van

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If men of flesh can never at any time seek after God, then Jesus was mistaken when He said people were entering the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 23:13. All these assertions to the contrary are simply unbiblical.

"Enabling grace" code for irresistible grace is proven unbiblical by Matthew 23:13.

Next we get Genesis 6:5 ripped from its context, and no mention is made of Genesis 6:8.

Was Ecclesiastes 8:12 highlighted when it says" it will be well with those that fear God." Nope

For those with an objective mind, ask yourself why Jesus said it was hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. If the fiction being peddled were true, it would be the same difficulty for everyone enabled by irresistible grace. But of course, that is not true. We must come to our senses, and put our trust and devotion into Christ alone. And that is more difficult if a person is rich in worldly treasures. It is better for those rich in faith.
 

Van

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The topic of the OP. is vessels of wrath, but you use it as a platform to restate you false views on everything else.
It is your false views that have been outed.

"No one is transferred spiritually?" Really, Just how does the Spirit put us in Christ. In a shipping container? LOL Are we in Christ physically or spiritually?

Since the wages of sin is death, to be made sinners certainly fits us for destruction. God did not need to deal with every individual off spring of Adam, only establish that any off spring would be made a sinner and be conceived in iniquity. Note we were by nature, children of wrath, pointing to the consequence of being born "in Adam."
 

Iconoclast

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I guess I'm straining at the gnat but looking at these passages through the calvin lens the 4 passages you gave in the o/p.

God did not just leave the vessels of destruction in their state of destruction but did something (fitted - katartidzo) to them (similar to the predisposing of the elect) before the time continuum was initiated. Perhaps allowing them to express their evil in a "free" manner thus God vindicates Himself (so say the scripture) to the rest of His creatures having intellect, emotion and will.

Given - It's an area of debate, dispute, etc...

HankD
The self will of the wicked is enmity against God,it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be. In the posts above it is explained that it is this expressions hof self willed Rebellion that demonstrates how they have fitted themselves for destruction....it cannot be any other way.
God's holiness demands sin is fully punished
 

Iconoclast

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It is your false views that have been outed.

"No one is transferred spiritually?" Really, Just how does the Spirit put us in Christ. In a shipping container? LOL Are we in Christ physically or spiritually?

Since the wages of sin is death, to be made sinners certainly fits us for destruction. God did not need to deal with every individual off spring of Adam, only establish that any off spring would be made a sinner and be conceived in iniquity. Note we were by nature, children of wrath, pointing to the consequence of being born "in Adam."
We are quickened,in dwelt, and sealed at new birth.....that's how
.
 

Van

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LOL, you left out the part about being sealed "in Him." Folks, turn from the mistaken doctrines of men that conflict with scripture after scripture.

If total spiritual inability were true, men could not have been entering the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 23:13.

If "irresistible grace" were true, the men entering could not have been blocked, Matthew 23:13

Next we get the absurdity that being made sinners, did not fit us for destruction. Romans 5:19
 

Iconoclast

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LOL, you left out the part about being sealed "in Him." Folks, turn from the mistaken doctrines of men that conflict with scripture after scripture.

If total spiritual inability were true, men could not have been entering the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 23:13.

If "irresistible grace" were true, the men entering could not have been blocked, Matthew 23:13

Next we get the absurdity that being made sinners, did not fit us for destruction. Romans 5:19
Your off topic posting is tedious....
Your lack of understanding of Mt 23....epic....lol
No one mentioned or denied romans 5.
You are the undisputed twaddlemaster.
 

Van

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More change of subject.
More denial of Matthew 23:13
More denial of Romans 5:19 where everyone was fitted for destruction by being made sinners.
More gratuitous insults.

God first puts us spiritually in Christ, then seals us in Christ with the Holy Spirit. How do we become vessels of mercy? God puts us spiritually in Christ when He credits our faith as righteousness. Before God puts us into Christ, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3.
 

HankD

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The self will of the wicked is enmity against God,it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be. In the posts above it is explained that it is this expressions hof self willed Rebellion that demonstrates how they have fitted themselves for destruction....it cannot be any other way.
God's holiness demands sin is fully punished
I believe you are getting closer to the kernel of the issue of which I am inquiring and it is holy ground IMO.
Many/most of us lack that sensitivity and seem unaware of the danger involved which is illustrated in the book of Job when at the end of the day God holds all the players accountable (except for satan for some strange reason) for what they have said about Him (God) including Job.

i can't help thinking about this when speaking in His name (which is what we do when we say God is... God wills...God does...(fill in the blanks)).

Now on to: the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
If you know Greek it is just the opposite of what you said "they fitted themselves for destruction" the statement is not reflexive but passive, they received this "fitting" they did not do it to themselves.

This view (I believe) could/should/would be categorized within the realm of hyper-Calvinism (which although I don't buy lock, stock and barrel, logically and scriptural it seems correct).

i.e. God Himself created and framed them purposely as "vessels of wrath" to show forth His glory and for no other primary reason.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Like I alluded to it's something I try to avoid exercising in my brain, but how else can we know our Father's true character?

It is tempered by the phrase "God is love".

HankD
 

Iconoclast

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HankD,
Hello Hank, just finished driving, sorry for the delay....
I believe you are getting closer to the kernel of the issue of which I am inquiring and it is holy ground IMO.
I agree. the truth delights to be investigated as long as we keep the attributes of God as a hedge in our discussion and inquiries.
Many/most of us lack that sensitivity and seem unaware of the danger involved which is illustrated in the book of Job when at the end of the day God holds all the players accountable (except for Satan for some strange reason) for what they have said about Him (God) including Job.
What truths are revealed are revealed for our study and benefit. Satan does not get a free pass.
We are just not told what would happen to him as a result of these wicked deeds at this time.

i can't help thinking about this when speaking in His name (which is what we do when we say God is... God wills...God does...(fill in the blanks)).
That is a proper caution that keeps us from taking God's name in vain.

Now on to: the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
If you know Greek it is just the opposite of what you said "they fitted themselves for destruction" the statement is not reflexive but passive, they received this "fitting" they did not do it to themselves

Here is the way I have seen it taught or preached;
.
from precept Austin;
Paul is not teaching that God took vessels and prepared them for destruction. These vessels (from the same lump) were themselves prepared for destruction. For example, as discussed earlier, Pharaoh heard God's Word and clearly saw God's mighty power and yet he steadfastly refused to bow his knee to God, thus "fitting" (preparing) himself for destruction
And so continuing his picture of God as a potter, Paul refers to those whom God has not chosen for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin (God’s wrath). Vessels of wrath are those whose sins make them subject to God’s wrath. They are prepared for destruction by their own sin, disobedience, and rebellion, and not by some arbitrary decree of God. (see below also)

Denney - Paul does not say how the vessels of wrath (skeue orges) came to be what they are, the objects upon which the wrath and power of God are to be revealed; he only says that such as they are, God has shown great patience with them. (Expositor's Greek)

Prepared (fitted) (2675) (katartizo [word study]from katá = intensifies meaning + artízo = fit, finish) means to make someone completely adequate or sufficient for something, causing them to be fully qualified, in this case for God's just wrath. The perfect tense emphasizes the state or condition that was the result of their rejection of God's internal and external revelation of His nature. They rejected God at some point in time and they were still in that state. They were ripe (fitted) for destruction because of their own actions of rejecting the truth.

Warren Wiersbe - The word “fitted” in Romans 9:22 does not suggest that God made Pharaoh a “vessel of wrath.” The verb is in what the Greek grammarians call the middle voice, making it a reflexive action verb. So, it should read: “fitted himself for destruction.” God prepares men for glory (Ro 9:23), but sinners prepare themselves for judgment. In Moses and Israel God revealed the riches of His mercy; in Pharaoh and Egypt He revealed His power and wrath. Since neither deserved any mercy, God cannot be charged with injustice. (Bible Exposition Commenary)

MacArthur - The Greek verb rendered prepared is passive. God is not the subject doing the preparing. There is the very clear sense in this use of the passive voice to relieve God of the responsibility and to put it fully on the shoulders of those who refuse to heed His Word and believe in His Son. They are prepared by their own rejection for a place (hell) prepared by God, not originally for them but “for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41). (Ed: In other words if the verb prepared had been active voice, the picture would be of God actively preparing men for destruction, which is not the case! Substantiating this point is the fact that "prepared beforehand" in Ro 9:23 is active voice, indicating God did in fact actively prepare them for glory.) (Romans Commentary. Moody).


Bible Knowledge Commentary - The perfect participle “prepared” describes past action with a continuing result or state. “Prepared” may be reflexive (“prepared themselves”), but it seems preferable to take it as passive (“were prepared”). The thought is that they have been and are in a state of readiness or ripeness to receive God’s wrath. The objects of God’s wrath are the unsaved (Ro 1:18), who will suffer eternal judgment (Jn 3:36). God has patiently endured their antagonism to Him (cf. Acts 14:16 Ro 3:25), but their judgment is coming. Those who oppose Him and refuse to turn to Him (Mt 23:37) are then “prepared” by Him for condemnation. They are “storing up [God’s] wrath” against themselves (Ro 2:5). In hell they will experience His wrath, and His power will be made known (cf. Ro 9:17). God does not delight in wrath, and He did not choose some people to go to hell. Some are prepared by God for eternal judgment not because He delights to do so, but because of their sin. In view of their sin, which makes them “ripe” for destruction, God is willing to exhibit His wrath, and He will do so at the proper time.

God endured these Vessels of Wrath and did not destroy them immediately. Why has God endured them with much patience all these years? He had a purpose -- in order to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy. We fail to view the truths about God's sovereignty in salvation from His perspective but usually choose to view it from man's vantage point presupposing that we have rights, and forgetting that God can do as He pleases and be justified no matter what He does.

When God looks down on mankind, He sees
all men under sin (Ro 5:12 all are in Adam and in desperate condition and need for His mercy and compassion). In view of that truth what does He have the right to do? Obviously as the Sovereign Creator He has the justifiable right to condemn all mankind to an eternal hell because all are sinners. If you think that this would make God an unfair Judge, then think back for a moment to what Paul taught in Romans 1.

I found these thoughts helpful.
 

Iconoclast

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Van,
post: 2236473, member: 10696"]More change of subject.
More denial of Matthew 23:13
More denial of Romans 5:19 where everyone was fitted for destruction by being made sinners.
More gratuitous insults.
Actually it is more off topic posting and disruption by you.
.
How do we become vessels of mercy? God puts us spiritually in Christ when He credits our faith as righteousness. Before God puts us into Christ, we are by nature, children of wrath, Ephesians 2:3.[

God does not credit anyone with anything as men have no inherent faith. God is not a debtor to man. That is another profane thought. It is your twist on things....the "folks' are not following you into the ditch.:Cautious:Cautious:Rolleyes:Rolleyes
 

HankD

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HankD,
Hello Hank, just finished driving, sorry for the delay....

I agree. the truth delights to be investigated as long as we keep the attributes of God as a hedge in our discussion and inquiries.

What truths are revealed are revealed for our study and benefit. Satan does not get a free pass.
We are just not told what would happen to him as a result of these wicked deeds at this time.


That is a proper caution that keeps us from taking God's name in vain.



Here is the way I have seen it taught or preached;
.
from precept Austin;
Paul is not teaching that God took vessels and prepared them for destruction. These vessels (from the same lump) were themselves prepared for destruction. For example, as discussed earlier, Pharaoh heard God's Word and clearly saw God's mighty power and yet he steadfastly refused to bow his knee to God, thus "fitting" (preparing) himself for destruction
And so continuing his picture of God as a potter, Paul refers to those whom God has not chosen for salvation, but rather allowed to incur the just penalty for their sin (God’s wrath). Vessels of wrath are those whose sins make them subject to God’s wrath. They are prepared for destruction by their own sin, disobedience, and rebellion, and not by some arbitrary decree of God. (see below also)

Denney - Paul does not say how the vessels of wrath (skeue orges) came to be what they are, the objects upon which the wrath and power of God are to be revealed; he only says that such as they are, God has shown great patience with them. (Expositor's Greek)

Prepared (fitted) (2675) (katartizo [word study]from katá = intensifies meaning + artízo = fit, finish) means to make someone completely adequate or sufficient for something, causing them to be fully qualified, in this case for God's just wrath. The perfect tense emphasizes the state or condition that was the result of their rejection of God's internal and external revelation of His nature. They rejected God at some point in time and they were still in that state. They were ripe (fitted) for destruction because of their own actions of rejecting the truth.

Warren Wiersbe - The word “fitted” in Romans 9:22 does not suggest that God made Pharaoh a “vessel of wrath.” The verb is in what the Greek grammarians call the middle voice, making it a reflexive action verb. So, it should read: “fitted himself for destruction.” God prepares men for glory (Ro 9:23), but sinners prepare themselves for judgment. In Moses and Israel God revealed the riches of His mercy; in Pharaoh and Egypt He revealed His power and wrath. Since neither deserved any mercy, God cannot be charged with injustice. (Bible Exposition Commenary)

MacArthur - The Greek verb rendered prepared is passive. God is not the subject doing the preparing. There is the very clear sense in this use of the passive voice to relieve God of the responsibility and to put it fully on the shoulders of those who refuse to heed His Word and believe in His Son. They are prepared by their own rejection for a place (hell) prepared by God, not originally for them but “for the devil and his angels” (Mt 25:41). (Ed: In other words if the verb prepared had been active voice, the picture would be of God actively preparing men for destruction, which is not the case! Substantiating this point is the fact that "prepared beforehand" in Ro 9:23 is active voice, indicating God did in fact actively prepare them for glory.) (Romans Commentary. Moody).


Bible Knowledge Commentary - The perfect participle “prepared” describes past action with a continuing result or state. “Prepared” may be reflexive (“prepared themselves”), but it seems preferable to take it as passive (“were prepared”). The thought is that they have been and are in a state of readiness or ripeness to receive God’s wrath. The objects of God’s wrath are the unsaved (Ro 1:18), who will suffer eternal judgment (Jn 3:36). God has patiently endured their antagonism to Him (cf. Acts 14:16 Ro 3:25), but their judgment is coming. Those who oppose Him and refuse to turn to Him (Mt 23:37) are then “prepared” by Him for condemnation. They are “storing up [God’s] wrath” against themselves (Ro 2:5). In hell they will experience His wrath, and His power will be made known (cf. Ro 9:17). God does not delight in wrath, and He did not choose some people to go to hell. Some are prepared by God for eternal judgment not because He delights to do so, but because of their sin. In view of their sin, which makes them “ripe” for destruction, God is willing to exhibit His wrath, and He will do so at the proper time.

God endured these Vessels of Wrath and did not destroy them immediately. Why has God endured them with much patience all these years? He had a purpose -- in order to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy. We fail to view the truths about God's sovereignty in salvation from His perspective but usually choose to view it from man's vantage point presupposing that we have rights, and forgetting that God can do as He pleases and be justified no matter what He does.

When God looks down on mankind, He sees
all men under sin (Ro 5:12 all are in Adam and in desperate condition and need for His mercy and compassion). In view of that truth what does He have the right to do? Obviously as the Sovereign Creator He has the justifiable right to condemn all mankind to an eternal hell because all are sinners. If you think that this would make God an unfair Judge, then think back for a moment to what Paul taught in Romans 1.

I found these thoughts helpful.
Thank you iconoclast for the word study. I'll ruminate on it for a while.

I think the "bottom line" is that these vessels were preserved and allowed to walk the earth to do just what we have been discussing - show His patience even though He knew/knows full well the grief He will endure.
e.g. the wilderness experience:

Hebrews 3
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

I believe He wants to be glorified by this situation to show both angels and redeemed humanity the scope of His endurance with sinners.

So these act reflexively but I am still a little stuck on the passive clause of "fitted for destruction".

My thought again is that He did something to them so He wouldn't need to destroy them at the Point Of Sale but let them endure on into the time continuum until He reaches the preset limit of His endurance (unless it's infinite).

Not a hill to die on.

Thanks again
HankD
 

Iconoclast

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Thank you iconoclast for the word study. I'll ruminate on it for a while.

I think the "bottom line" is that these vessels were preserved and allowed to walk the earth to do just what we have been discussing - show His patience even though He knew/knows full well the grief He will endure.
e.g. the wilderness experience:

Hebrews 3
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

I believe He wants to be glorified by this situation to show both angels and redeemed humanity the scope of His endurance with sinners.

So these act reflexively but I am still a little stuck on the passive clause of "fitted for destruction".

My thought again is that He did something to them so He wouldn't need to destroy them at the Point Of Sale but let them endure on into the time continuum until He reaches the preset limit of His endurance (unless it's infinite).

Not a hill to die on.

Thanks again
HankD
Gen 15:16 gives some support to what you are considering....the sins of the Amorites are not yet full.

We can be thankful for the long suffering of God which is a means to salvation of the ALL the Father has given to the Son.
 

HankD

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Gen 15:16 gives some support to what you are considering....the sins of the Amorites are not yet full.

We can be thankful for the long suffering of God which is a means to salvation of the ALL the Father has given to the Son.
Amen.
 

Van

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More off topic gratuitous insults! More denial of scripture, this time Romans 4:4-5. The claim that God does not credit our faith as righteousness demonstrates a willingness of post obvious falsehood to obfuscate.
'
Folks, scripture is clear, mankind was fitted for destruction when we were made sinners, Romans 5:19.
We become vessels of mercy when God transfers us into Christ. This is basic Christianity 101.
 

Iconoclast

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More off topic gratuitous insults! More denial of scripture, this time Romans 4:4-5. The claim that God does not credit our faith as righteousness demonstrates a willingness of post obvious falsehood to obfuscate.
'
Folks, scripture is clear, mankind was fitted for destruction when we were made sinners, Romans 5:19.
We become vessels of mercy when God transfers us into Christ. This is basic Christianity 101.
The folks have sent me text messages stating you are wrong indeed on every count, and off topic once again.
Romans 4 is not dealing with Rom 9....
 

Van

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More off topic and non-germane babble. Folks, the topic is vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and the answer is Romans 5:19.

God does indeed credit our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5/24.

We indeed are made vessels of mercy when God puts us spiritually in Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30
 
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SovereignGrace

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If men of flesh can never at any time seek after God, then Jesus was mistaken when He said people were entering the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 23:13. All these assertions to the contrary are simply unbiblical.

Boy, Pelagius would be so proud of you...
 

Van

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Yet another misrepresentation of my view, without any support. That is all they have folks, misrepresent and disparage. Just read Matthew 23:13 and ask yourself, did Jesus mean what He said!
 

Iconoclast

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Hank...as you are the only one giving serious biblical consideration to this question I will offer you more food for thought as a related discussion has to do with the longsuffering of God as it pertains to both the vessels of wrath and the believers to be.
http://www.bunyanministries.org/expositions/attributes/07_Longsuffering.pdf

b. To the saint, God defers judgment before salvation (I Tim. 1:16) and discipline after salvation. “The Lord is not slow about His promise [3:4], as some count slowness, but is patient toward you [1:1], not wishing for any to perish [3:7] but for all to come to repentance [3:10‐17]” (II Pet. 3:9). make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” (Rom. 9:22; cf. 2:4; 3:25). THE LONGSUFFERING OF GOD .

2. God’s longsuffering or endurance is directed towards sinner and saint. Even now the longsuffering of God poured out upon the United States is without discrimination, except that the sinner arrogantly repudiates it while the saint both gives thanks for it and takes advantage of the opportunities it provides for service.

a. To the sinner, God defers judgment, even as has been the case since Adam’s fall (Gen. 3:3, 15). “What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” (Rom. 9:22; cf. 2:4; 3:25



b. To the saint, God defers judgment before salvation (I Tim. 1:16) and discipline after salvation. “The Lord is not slow about His promise [3:4], as some count slowness, but is patient toward you [1:1], not wishing for any to perish [3:7] but for all to come to repentance [3:10‐17]” (II Pet. 3:9).













(6) To show the impeccable fairness of His future judgment. Divine waiting disallows any accusation being brought before God. For a time, justice is silenced with patience, yet finally it is loudly upheld with greater evidence. (5) To suffer the wicked so that the church might be properly fashioned. The tares are tolerated until harvest when the wheat is separately gathered. As at Sodom, He endures the wicked for the sake of the elect. (4) To allow for the continuance of the church [people of God], enduring thorns so that roses might ultimately be gathered. This allowed for a godly remnant to arise until the promised Seed should come. (3) To allow for the propagation of mankind instead of its extinction. Though Adam fell, God preferred a world of mankind, rather than the first man’s extinction, and thus ultimately a widespread salvation. (2) To wait for men’s repentance. God is “slow to anger” in spite of man’s abuse of His waiting. Even light afflictions are testimonies of divine patience that prefer repentance and warn of more severe wrath to come. (1) To show that His anger may be appeased. It is in association with His attractive goodness and relieving mercy, they being better appreciated by means of his waiting that allows for their display before all of creation.
 
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