Volition - Was man created with it?

Pastor_Bob said:

I will admit that there is a difference and the words cannot be used interchangeably in every instance. My question would then become, do the two ever come together as it relates to a relationship with the Lord?

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Would not this be also a fair question with regard to the fallen intellect and desires (emotions). Is there a point where darkness and light co-exist? Is there a point where love for sin and love for God co-exist? Can Light and darkness co-exist at any point in time without one destroying the other? Can love and hate for God co-exist at any point of time? If they can, then why the need of new birth? Why not a simple shift of balance so that the light predominates the darkness and the love of God predominates hate for God. Does not the very nature such deny coexistence? It cannot coexist in the nature of God. It cannot coexist within the new nature received from God. How could it then coexist within a fallen nature that is Biblically characterized as a STATE of darkness and depravity?

Pastor_Bob said:

Granted, the will of man is depraved and not bent on fostering a relationship with the Lord; but, I believe every man is given an opportunity (II Peter 2:12) to exercise his volition and free will to appropriate the finished work of Christ to his own sinful condition. [I know some will say it cannot be "finished" if man has to act on it, but that is a game of semantics]

Jeremiah 29:13,14 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD..."

Is this volition or free will?

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We are also commanded to love the Lord our God with "ALL OF OUR HEARTS" but is that possible for a depraved heart? Does the inability of the depraved heart lessen the accountability to do such? Only if our condition is not our own fault. However, if our condition is due to our own fault then God has every right to not only exhort, but to command us to "be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" regardless if we have the ability or not.

Therefore, what are the prerequirements for anyone to search for God "with all your heart"? Can the depraved heart do that? I think not, and it is not God's fault it cannnot nor is God wrong in exhorting, even command it to be done. However, this exhortation is no different than any other Law of God - it is designed to reveal our condition and need of a Savior because we have no such ability to obey.

Hence, as with any Law of God it drives us to frustration that can only be relieved by intervention of divine power (new birth) or it hardens them in their sins. The former is free grace while the latter is being left to our own just condemnation. Can God's grace be demanded? Can God's mercy be demanded? Can the depraved nature even muster sincere desire to please God (Rom. 8:7-9)?

If a people have no eyes to see and no ears to hear then how do they see and hear until the ears are opened and the eyes are opened? That very act is regeneration. But an open eye sees and hearing ears hear. If the gospel is the creative word that opens the ears and opens the eyes then those eyes and ears see and hear the gospel at the same point in time as being opened. Hence, the means (the preaching and empowering of the gospel) is as predestinated as the persons who hear and see. No one can deny that is pure grace and an act of mercy whereas those not receiving it cannot demand grace or mercy and continue in just condemnation and love it so. So which are which? We preach the gospel and that is the only way to tell.

TCassidy said:

Once again you completely missed the point!

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I missed the point because I believe Adam fulfilled the purpose for which he was created. He did not need, "free will," to do so. All he had to do was act naturally.

Pastor_Bob said:

Granted, the will of man is depraved and not bent on fostering a relationship with the Lord; but, I believe every man is given an opportunity (II Peter 2:12) to exercise his volition and free will to appropriate the finished work of Christ to his own sinful condition. [I know some will say it cannot be "finished" if man has to act on it, but that is a game of semantics]

Jeremiah 29:13,14 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD..."

Is this volition or free will?

Click to expand...

With regard to Jeremiah 29:13,14 there is an interesting comparison in Deuteronomy 29-30. As you know the entire ending of Deuteronomy is repetition to obey the commandments of the Lord with all their heart and God will bless them but if they do not God will curse them.

However, in Deuteronomy 5:29 right after giving the Ten commandments a second time to Israel God says:

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

The necessary inference here is they do not possess a heart that will love the Lord their God or seek to obey him.

Near the end of the book in Deuteronomy 29:4 Moses says that such heart must be given to them by God and God has not been pleased to give them such a heart:

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

The necessary inference is that God must give such a heart in order for them to have such a heart.

Then in spite of the fact they have no such heart in the very next chapter God tells them that if they will seek him with all their heart and soul he will bless them:

And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; - Deut. 30:2

And then just a couple passages later God reveals how it is possible for them to seek him with all their hearts and souls:

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. - Deut. 30:6

Therefore, even though God recognizes they have no such heart, and that the only way they can come into possession of such a heart is that it is given to them by God, which has not been pleased to do, still they are held accountable to love him with all their heart, but can only do so, if he circumcises their heart to do so.

So we might ask, can God be just and demand them to love him with all their hearts and souls and obey his commandments when He fully well knows and clearly states that it is clearly impossible for them to do so without him giving them such heart? Is he just and not giving them such a heart as he clearly states he has not and yet still hold them accountable for what he knows they cannot do until he does give them a new heart?

I believe he is just on all accounts because they are responsible for their depraved condition and justly deserve the consequences. Since they are acccountable for their own condition, God has every right to still demand what he knows they cannot do. Because giving a new heart is purely of grace and mercy, and since no sinner can demand grace or mercy, and because no sinner has a heart to even seek God's grace and mercy, God can justly deny giving such a heart as he clearly did. So, merely the exhortation or command to seek him with all their heart is not contrary to the fact they have no such heart to do so and never will unless God first gives them such a heart and he is under no obligation to do so, because that is an act of grace and mercy.