Featured An expose' of Matthew 23:13

ROFLOL. Matthew 23:13 means what it says. Why deny the very words of Jesus?
1) Draw does not mean God's tractor beam of irresistible grace. Strike one.

2) Seeking God and finding God does not equate with being born anew under the New Covenant. Strike two. The people of Matthew 23:13 were seeking God effectively until blocked by false teachers.

3) Then comes the assertion of total spiritual inability affecting all people all the time, which of course is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13. Strike three.

 

1) Metaphorically draw means to attract, the allurement of charisma. God's draws us with lovingkindness.
2) Is it possible that some of the people seeking God, will not be saved? Yes Romans 9:30-33
3) The men of Matthew 23:13 were spiritually dead, yet were seeking God, thus total spiritual inability is mistaken doctrine.

I can do this all day.

 

The question is not what the English word 'draw' means; the question is what the Greek word helkuo means. That is why we need to compare it to the other usages in the NT. When we do that we find, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, that it means to bring irresistibly. But even in my trusty Oxford Concise Dictionary, I find that it means 'to attract,' 'to bring to oneself or to something.' Now if you attract someone, he comes to you. If he doesn't come, he's not attracted QED. So when the Lord Jesus says, "I will draw all [people] to Myself," if they don't come, He hasn't drawn them QED again. He also says, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." So if all people are being drawn to Christ, He promises that He will certainly not reject them, so they are all saved QED again. God certainly draws us with lovingkindness (or 'covenant mercies,' Heb. hesed), but that does not the drawing any less irresistible (Song of Solomon 1:2-4)

But 'all' does not always mean every single person unless you believe that every single person in Judea and the region around the Jordan went out to John the Baptist and every single one of them was baptized by him (Matthew 3:5), which cannot be true because of Luke 7:30.

Nothing in Romans 9:30-33 about seeking God. The Jews were seeking the law of righteousness and seeking it the wrong way; ie. not by seeking Christ (v.33). "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened" (Matthew 7:8). There is, of course, a qualification to this in Deuteronomy 4:29. '.....You will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.' Half-hearted seeking gets one nowhere (cf. James 1:6-8).

Nothing in Matthew 23:13 that says that the men were spiritually dead, and if they were seeking God with all their heart and soul (see above) the scribes and Pharisees could not keep them away.

I think everyone's aware of that. It's nothing to boast about. 'As a dog returns to its own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly' (Proverbs 26:11).

 

Martin, we are not talking about the English word, but about the metaphoric usage of the Greek word. So you start of with a strawman argument to deflect.

To be drawn with lovingkindness does not suggest in the least a tractor beam like the fictional irresistible grace. Even Martin Luther could grasp this truth, why do all the advocates for the nameless doctrine claim total spiritual inability when it comes to alternate biblical views?

To be attracted to God does not require a wholehearted commitment to God. Scripture speaks of lip service Christians.

Next, Jesus did not say He would not reject some of those drawn, that is just another fiction. He said that those given to Him He would not cast out. Please do not rewrite John 6:37 to conform to your view.

No one said all in John 12:32 refers to everyone that ever lived. It refers to all the people who behold Him high and lifted up, i.e. dying for all mankind. The attraction or allurement stems from God's lovingkindness.

Your view of Romans 9 is without merit. Again, folks, the commentaries agree, we do not attain the righteousness from God through works (obeying Mosaic Law) by through faith.

According to Total Spiritual Inability there would be no one seeking after God, either by works or by faith.

And then Martin, you once again deny Matthew 23:13 which teaches the men in the process of entering the kingdom of heaven were blocked. Please do not try to rewrite yet another verse.

 

I agree with Van on this one. Jesus words are plain and simple and to the point.
BTW who said those trying to enter the kingdom of heaven were not already redeemed.

I don't know how to reconcile the apparent tension in this verse as if God's purpose was being thwarted by the unregenerate but it appears that way and so I accept what appears to be the impossible and say along with Jesus

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees.
and consider it a warning with BAD consequences.

And OBTW this rebuke is NOT addressed by me to ANYONE posting here.

Thanks to all.
HankD

 

Thanks HankD, we agree, the Bible means what it says, and if it seems to conflict with our presuppositions, rather than rewrite the bible, we should rewrite our presuppositions.

If you are using the word "redeemed" to mean saved, the reason is no one could block God transferring an individual into the kingdom of His Son. Colossians 1:13. So what seems to be indicated is the men were establishing their faith in Christ when they were derailed.

 

Yes, or something like that, now Jesus says "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".

HankD

 

Absolutely, and thus only those that "arrive" in Christ are in view because you must be "in" Christ in order to be cast out. Therefore positional sanctification, God putting someone in Christ is in view, rather than someone mentally committing to faith toward Christ.

 

No one wants to go to hell. Everyone wants eternal life and go to heaven. The problem is that none want eternal life God's way. The Pharisees did not preach the true gospel. What they preached made their converts "two more child of hell" then themselves as all who preach another gospel are accursed as much as those who embrace it. The consequence is that they really close the door of heaven when they preach another gospel. The consequence is that those desiring to enter heaven are prevented by embracing such a false gospel.

Unfortunately, Van and others don't interpret this text in its context. If they did, they would find that the consequence of the gospel being preached by the scribes and Pharisees was an anti-christ gospel of justification by works and the absolute proof is that Jesus defines their converts as two fold more children of hell JUST LIKE THEMSELVES. But, who cares about context? Right?

 

Agreed.....thank. you

 

Yet another advocate of the nameless doctrine changing the subject. Men were entering the kingdom of heaven. That means they were seeking God. They were not under the influence of irresistible grace because they were blocked.

This statement is true, but does not conform to the nameless doctrine. The nameless doctrine says no one desires entering heaven because no one ever seeks God. And then it says those enabled by irresistible grace are compelled by the power of God and cannot be blocked. So Matthew 23:13 is a twofer.

 

Thanks for pointing that out Biblicist. I missed that in the context.

HankD