Featured The Final Authority of Scripture

There is no double standard.
This is a Baptist Board. The rules are posted on every page. I suggest you read them.
As a Catholic you are a guest on this board. You don't have rights. It is a privilege for you to be here. What you posted is your opinion, and that is all. You say "experience." Some post experiences how they have been to heaven and back and have seen God on his throne and even the devil in hell. Do you believe them? That is their experience. The fact is that the Bible says: no man has seen God and has lived. Thus the Bible is our authority and not your experience or anyone else's experience.

Prove your case through the Bible. How is sola scriptura wrong through the Bible, and how does belief in it make anyone unsaved.
However I can show you that Catholics worshiping idols is breaking the Ten Commandments is idolatry and that a continuation in such a sin is not a characteristic of a true Christian.
I can show you how a Catholic who believes that baptism is the new birth and believes that baptism therefore saves, cannot possibly be saved for only Christ can save.
I can state my case through the Scriptures. Can you? If you can't, then don't post.

 

Look closely

1 Corinthians 11
1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.


He imitates Christ, he does traditions and commands they keep it JUST AS I DELIVERED.
Same chapter few verses later:

1 Corinthians 11
23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.


Do you see a tradition here? do you see a imitation of Christ?

do you see tradition, JUST as I DELIEVERED , what he received from the lord, that which I also delivered to you.

We see a tradition being REPORTED by scripture. like a news paper. The news paper doesn't negate the event.

If I wrote on paper you drive a car around the block to remember mom's birthday, that doesn't mean you are going to switch method on account it is on paper.

In same way you see an independent Eucharist being reported these people are not going to verify through scripture what is traditionally already established. You don't see them opening a bible.

Same way we still remember mom's birthday not on account of the authority of paper, it is independent.

 

I appreciate your efforts. I believe you care for me, if you didn't you wouldn't write anything at all.

In the text you provide Isaiah is prophet not a book. He is verbally preaching. What I'm saying The WORD of GOD is not limited to ink and paper alone.

 

"THIS WORD" Does not equal to INK and PAPER. The context is what GOD told Elijah to SPEAK by mouth.

There are instances God told Elijah to write things down, this is not one of them.



If we go through the logos of John. The word became man and was God. Do you say the Bible is God?

 

Can I get your input on post #55 concerning reliability when God is involved?

 

I don't know what translation you are using but it is not a good one. Consider the KJV here:
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
--This is a command--to wear a head-covering in the service. Paul spends the first 16 verses of this chapter giving a number of reasons why a woman ought to wear a head-covering in church. It is not a tradition, but a command.

He received revelation directly from the Lord and quotes word for word the word's of Jesus. He describes what went on in the upper room though he was not there. He gives the command of Christ.
This is not a tradition. It is a command. If the Lord's Supper is only a tradition to you I pity you! It is a command that we are to carry out until the Lord comes again.
As Christ himself says; "This do until until he comes."
this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. (11:25). It is a command.

It is a pity how you downgrade the Lord's Supper to that of a newspaper clipping. It is a command we keep until Jesus comes again. In it we remember his death by partaking of the wine or juice, and the bread. It is not a mystical and superstitious event called transubstantiation. That again cannot be substantiated through Scripture. Be that as it may, you have a very low view of it all comparing it to a newspaper clipping. It is the command of Christ himself.

 

In short the bible is God, Correct?

 

We keep the command by the command. you however go over God's head having to verify scripture. None of the apostles do communion because scripture told them to.

You don't like the translation? Well I'm not a ancient Greek scholar.

How bout we use the original?
1 Corinthians 11:2
Ἐπαινῶ δὲ ὑμᾶς, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι πάντα μου μέμνησθε καὶ καθὼς παρέδωκα ὑμῖν τὰς παραδόσεις κατέχετε

I believe this is where King James gets it.

Focus on "παραδόσεις"


That comes from paradosis

When Jesus challenges evil tradition its "παράδοσιν"

Same word.

I'll leave links to the original Greek, to both verses.

3862. paradosis

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/11-2.htm

http://biblehub.com/text/mark/7-8.htm



Your best bet is to negate the word tradition entirely.

 

God's Word, (Christ's commands) are encapsulated and inspired in the Bible. What Christ said to the apostles he said in the Bible. What he commanded to the apostles is written in the Bible. So your statement is quite frivolous. They obeyed the commands that are both written and commanded in the Scripture. You are wrong.

It is evident that you are not a Greek scholar. Your forte is argumentation and that often without logic.
Here is the definition of paradosis according to the eminent lexicographer J.H. Thayer:

Thayer Definition:
1) giving up, giving over
1a) the act of giving up
1b) the surrender of cities
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
2a) objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching
2b) of the body of precepts, especially ritual, which in the opinion of the later Jews were orally delivered by Moses and orally transmitted in unbroken succession to subsequent generations, which precepts, both illustrating and expanding the written law, as they did were to be obeyed with equal reverence
Part of Speech: noun feminine.

Note, that the last definition, the one that is least used, the least important definition, is the one that you use and that the RCC attach to this word. It is evident (as all of us have been telling you), that definition 2b is not the primary definition of this word.

Most of the time, the way it is used in Scripture, it is simply:
2) a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
--This is what Paul did with Timothy and others. He taught them. He taught them the gospel. He taught them through his epistles, which would become the Scriptures, and thus he was teaching them the Word of God.

Of the word paradosis used in 1Cor.11:2, Greek scholar Vincent, in his word studies, says:
Ordinances - delivered (παραδόσεις - παρέδωκα)
There is a play of two hundred words, both being derived from παραδίδωμι to give over.
He delivers to them what had been delivered to him. Compare 1Ti_1:11; 2Th_2:15.

It is evident that your made-up definition is wrong.
The context determines the definition. The context determines that the definition you give is absolutely wrong. Words have meaning. When the meaning of the word is taken out of context and put into another context all meaning is lost.

 

I am lost. Not sure what your trying to establish.

We look at the beginning of the chapter
:
1Then the LORD said to me, “Take for yourself a large tablet and write on it in ordinary letters: Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey.

This isn't the only place he's said to write things down.

Scripture is 100% true. Absolutely right, And if that scripture says to you every disciple should know scripture and anyone who is against scripture has "no dawn".

I'd say amen to that.


But as a case for sola scriptura, it doesn't float at all.
Testimony is when a witness testifies.....this is done orally.
Isaiah 8 as promoting sola scriptura.......its like the sound a balloon makes when you let the air out.



Example of scripture that comes close:

1 Corinthians 4
6Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.



2 kings 22

8Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, “I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan who read it. 9Shaphan the scribe came to the king and brought back word to the king and said, “Your servants have emptied out the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD.” 10Moreover, Shaphan the scribe told the king saying, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read it in the presence of the king.
11When the king heard the words of the book of the law, he tore his clothes. 12Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Achbor the son of Micaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah the king’s servant saying, 13“Go, inquire of the LORD for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found, for great is the wrath of the LORD that burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.”



Those two might stump me..........might.




We need something that states the scripture is the sole and final authority.
If everyone in the world had a bible, I'd say they are materially sufficient, but not formally.
They all read and they all are going to come up with their own thing.

James 2

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Suppose everyone has a bible in the world and they read it.

What do you suppose the chances is of someone reading the above and thinking.......gee maybe a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?

Or how many folks do you figure are going to mistakenly think........Faith without works is useless?

 

Hello Utilyan, so you're a Roman Catholic? What Catholics do appears to Baptists as the worship of statues and of Mary. That's the way it is, and I've seen Catholics defend it, but their defense isn't good enough, not even close. It's no game for someone to object to Catholics using Mary as a mediator. And, if my denomination ever elected a leader as opposed to the Bible as Pope Francis, I'd find a new denomination.

Sola Scriptura elevates scripture to the highest authority. You're playing a shameless game when you argue that Sola Scriptura deprecates the Bible.

 

I am a Bible believing Christian. Mediator sounds like it has to do with salvation. Salvation first is not the priority.

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR God commands, first thing on one's mind is.........well is this going to get me salvation? What is this going to do for me?

We do what God says FOR FREE. If one does it for salvation/pay that just makes one a "gold digger" for salvation/pay. Maybe that's a natural beginning based on fear for every Christian starting out.

Fact I'll pay and go to hell just to do what God says, My Christ is alive.....my salvation is DONE.

I got to believe when you do what God says its because you love God.

We differentiate to a degree Justify vs. Saved.
We don't say works justifies us, neither do we say faith justifies us. Because of Christ death on the cross I am justified. Being saved will bank on my acceptance or denial of what Christ commands of me.

We believe = bible says. Bible says = we believe.

We don't have to look for any meaning other then what is presented. We say amen to all scripture.

When we run into two verses that appear contradicting we tend to lean towards BOTH/AND as opposed to EITHER/OR.

James 2
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Bible says = faith without works is useless.

We believe = faith without works is useless.



1 timothy 3

15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Bible says = The church of living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

We believe = the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.


Matthew 6

14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Bible says = If you forgive others then God will forgive you
We believe = if you forgive others God will forgive you

Bible says = If you do not forgive others then God won't for give you.
We believe = if you don't forgive others then God won't for give you.



So we run into a line for example that says FAITH another that says WORKS, we say both faith and works. rather then pit them against each other in either/or.

One line says predestination, another shows free will, again both/and.

Mark 9
40“For he who is not against us is for us.
Matthew 12
30“He who is not with Me is against Me

Both/And.



Tradition, Scripture is a both/and for us.

Scripture says the FOUNDATION and PILLAR of truth is church. We say amen.
Scripture says Scripture is GOD BREATHED. We say amen.


Its precisely because of strict adherence to scripture and scripture not flat out stating that it is the final authority we disqualify it as final sole rule of faith.


Every foundational truth of Christianity can be found in the bible.

The bible being the sole rule of faith is not one of them. We are very against adding a rule that simply does not exist inside.

We have preconceived ideas and assumption. I can tell you a majority of Catholics if not all have believed in Sola Scriptura, probably even still do. I assume the bible is a instruction book, one book that fell out the sky never mind authors, when I was little I figure God wrote it, and God's reading material has to be over my head.