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Infant Death and Salvation Two

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
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Darrell C

Here it is;

That's funny, because what you post as supposedly a given answer...

...isn't in the original post.

This is what you said in that post:


Darrell C,

And your position remains the same, right?
There are things we cannot know, and we are in error if we think we can.

When scripture says we can know what God reveals to us, freely....that is what it means;
I believe what scripture says here....you believe you can go beyond what is revealed....
1 cor2
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


And my point is just as I responded to one member, not only do I think we are meant to know, but I can show you this from Scripture itself.


No you cannot...


So here is a relevant question to the OP: how can the Elect Infant, who is natural and cannot receive the spiritual things of God...be saved?

By God's mercy It can be born from above



You admit that the Elect Infant will be saved, but you refuse to address when their salvation takes place.



Okay...you forced me to reveal it.....elect infants get saved at 2:37 am....that is the time slot allotted for elect infants....can you prove it is not?:Wink:Wink:Wink
The confession put it this way however;
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases



Reliance on the covenant of redemption you teach does not address the fact that they are conceived natural, and remain natural until they are born again.


When does that happen?



This shows you still have no idea what you are even speaking about.
:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious


Continued...
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
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Now lets look at what you include in your statement as though you said this before:

Darrell C said:
Here it is:






The conclusion is drawn from your own statement.
The conclusion you draw is from not understanding my statement.

I said man is conceived natural, and remain natural until they are born again, and you say...


This shows you still have no idea what you are even speaking about.:Cautious:Cautious:Cautious


So are you now going to affirm what I said?









Darrell C,



Just give straight answers.

If you are trying to teach the elect are in this covenant of redemption and therefore are not born natural and remain natural until regenerated, say so. If you are not...say so.

If your doctrine is too embarrassing to teach, don't you think you might want to rethink it?




The only thing embarrassing here is your obtuse behavior and your stubborn ignorance of theology that you in fact boast in.....
The Covenant of Redemption was made in eternity past before the world was.....
It was made among the persons of the Godhead alone....
Your repeated mocking and boasting of false knowledge indicates a proud spirit which is considered the province of a foolish person. Why not check that at the door;
Read and learn, or remain in your ignorant error and proud boasting;
https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/covenant-redemption/systematic-theology/louis-berkhof
II. The Covenant of Redemption
A. SEPARATE DISCUSSION OF THIS DESIRABLE.
There are different representations respecting the parties in the covenant of grace. Some consider them to be the triune God and man, either without qualification, or qualified in some way, as “the sinner,” “the elect,” or “man in Christ”; others, God the Father, as representing the Trinity, and Christ as representing the elect;[Westm. Larger Cat., Q. 31.] and still others, since the days of Coccejus, distinguish two covenants, namely, the covenant of redemption (pactum salutis) between the Father and the Son, and, as based on this, the covenant of grace between the triune God and the elect, or the elect sinner. The second of these representations has a certain advantage from a systematic point of view. It may claim the support of such passages as Rom. 5:12-21 and I Cor. 15:21,22,47-49, and stresses the inseparable connection between the pactum salutis and the covenant of grace. It brings out the unity of the covenant in Christ, and is advocated among others by Boston, Gib, Dick, A. Kuyper Sr., H. Kuyper, and A. Kuyper, Jr. The third representation is more perspicuous, however, is easier to understand, and is therefore more serviceable in a practical discussion of the doctrine of the covenant. It escapes a great deal of confusion that is incidental to the other view, and is followed by the majority of Reformed theologians, such as Mastricht, à Marck, Turretin, Witsius, Heppe, the Hodges, Shedd, Vos, Bavinck, and Honig. There is no essential difference between these two representations. Says Dr. Hodge: “There is no doctrinal difference between those who prefer the one statement and those who prefer the other; between those who comprise all the facts of Scripture relating to the subject under one covenant between God and Christ as the representative of His people, and those who distribute them under two.”[Syst. Theol. II, p. 358; cf. also Dabney, Lect. on Theol., p. 432; Bavinck, Geref. Dogm. III, p. 240] This being the case, the third mode of representing the whole matter undoubtedly deserves the preference. But in following it we should bear in mind what Shedd says: “Though this distinction (between the covenant of redemption and the covenant of grace) is favored by Scripture statements, it does not follow that there are two separate and independent covenants antithetic to the covenant of works. The covenant of grace and redemption are two modes or phases of the one evangelical covenant of mercy.”[Dogm. Theol. II, p. 360.]

B. SCRIPTURAL DATA FOR THE COVENANT OF REDEMPTION.
The name “counsel of peace” is derived from Zech. 6:13. Coccejus and others found in this passage a reference to an agreement between the Father and the Son. This was clearly a mistake, for the words refer to the union of the kingly and priestly offices in the Messiah. The Scriptural character of the name cannot be maintained, but this, of course, does not detract from the reality of the counsel of peace. The doctrine of this eternal counsel rests on the following Scriptural basis.

1. Scripture clearly points to the fact that the plan of redemption was included in the eternal decree or counsel of God, Eph. 1:4 ff.; 3:11; II Thess. 2:13; II Tim. 1:9; Jas. 2:5; I Pet. 1:2, etc. Now we find that in the economy of redemption there is, in a sense, a division of labor: the Father is the originator, the Son the executor, and the Holy Spirit the applier. This can only be the result of a voluntary agreement among the persons of the Trinity, so that their internal relations assume the form of a covenant life. In fact, it is exactly in the trinitarian life that we find the archetype of the historical covenants, a covenant in the proper and fullest sense of the word, the parties meeting on a footing of equality, a true suntheke.

2. There are passages of Scripture which not only point to the fact that the plan of God for the salvation of sinners was eternal, Eph. 1:4; 3:9,11, but also indicate that it was of the nature of a covenant. Christ speaks of promises made to Him before his advent, and repeatedly refers to a commission which He had received from the Father, John 5:30,43; 6:38-40; 17:4-12. And in Rom. 5:12-21 and I Cor. 15:22 He is clearly regarded as a representative head, that is, as the head of a covenant.

3. Wherever we have the essential elements of a covenant, namely, contracting parties, a promise or promises, and a condition, there we have a covenant. In Ps. 2:7-9 the parties are mentioned and a promise is indicated. The Messianic character of this passage is guaranteed by Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5; 5:5. Again, in Ps. 40:7-9, also attested as Messianic by the New Testament (Heb. 10:5-7), the Messiah expresses His readiness to do the Father’s will in becoming a sacrifice for sin. Christ repeatedly speaks of a task which the Father has entrusted to Him, John 6:38,39; 10:18; 17:4. The statement in Luke 22:29 is particularly significant: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me.” The verb used here is diatithemi, the word from which diatheke is derived, which means to appoint by will, testament or covenant. Moreover, in John 17:5 Christ claims a reward, and in John 17:6,9,24 (cf. also Phil. 2:9-11) He refers to His people and His future glory as a reward given Him by the Father.

4. There are two Old Testament passages which connect up the idea of the covenant immediately with the Messiah, namely, Ps. 89:3, which is based on II Sam. 7:12-14, and is proved to be a Messianic passage by Heb. 1:5; and Isa. 42:6, where the person referred to is the Servant of the Lord. The connection clearly shows that this Servant is not merely Israel. Moreover, there are passages in which the Messiah speaks of God as His God, thus using covenant language, namely, Ps. 22:1, 2, and Ps. 40:8.


Would you mind giving the post number where this was stated? My statement comes from Post #46.

You so cluster the posts and refuse to give links and direct quotes that you might seem to be actually contending, lol, but the truth is...this is simply dishonest debate tactic.

The above is new to the discussion to my knowledge, yet you post it as though you already gave this in this discussion. Give me a post number, Iconoclast.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
pt2;
C. THE SON IN THE COVENANT OF REDEMPTION.
1. THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF CHRIST IN THIS COVENANT. The position of Christ in the covenant of redemption is twofold. In the first place He is Surety (Gr. egguos), a word that is used only in Heb. 7:22. The derivation of this word is uncertain, and therefore cannot aid us in establishing its meaning. But the meaning is not doubtful. A surety is one who engages to become responsible for it that the legal obligations of another will be met. In the covenant of redemption Christ undertook to atone for the sins of His people by bearing the necessary punishment, and to meet the demands of the law for them. And by taking the place of delinquent man He became the last Adam, and is as such also the Head of the covenant, the Representative of all those whom the Father has given Him. In the covenant of redemption, then, Christ is both Surety and Head. He took upon Himself the responsibilities of His people. He is also their Surety in the covenant of grace, which develops out of the covenant of redemption. The question has been raised, whether the suretyship of Christ in the counsel of peace was conditional or unconditional. Roman jurisprudence recognizes two kinds of suretyship, the one designated fidejussor, and the other expromissor. The former is conditional, and the latter unconditional. The former is a surety who undertakes to pay for another, provided this person does not himself render satisfaction. The burden of guilt remains on the guilty party until the time of payment. The latter, however, is a surety who takes upon himself unconditionally to pay for another, thus relieving the guilty party of his responsibility at once. Coccejus and his school maintained that in the counsel of peace Christ became a fidejussor, and that consequently Old Testament believers enjoyed no complete forgiveness of sins. From Rom. 3:25 they inferred that for those saints there was only a paresis, an overlooking of sin, and no aphesis or complete forgiveness, until Christ really made atonement for sin. Their opponents asserted, however, that Christ took upon Himself unconditionally to render satisfaction for His people, and therefore became a surety in the specific sense of an expromissor. This is the only tenable position, for: (a) Old Testament believers received full justification or forgiveness, though the knowledge of it was not as full and clear as it is in the New Testament dispensation. There was no essential difference between the status of the Old, and that of the New Testament believers, Ps. 32:1,2,5; 51:1-3, 9-11; 103:3,12; Isa. 43:25; Rom. 3:3,6-16; Gal. 3:6-9. The position of Coccejus reminds one of that of the Roman Catholics with their Limbus Patrum. (b) Coccejus’ theory makes the work of God in making provision for the redemption of sinners dependent on the uncertain obedience of man in an entirely unwarranted way. There is no sense in saying that Christ became a conditional surety, as if it were still possible that the sinner should pay for himself. God’s provision for the redemption of sinners is absolute. This is not the same as saying that He does not treat and address the sinner as personally guilty until he is justified by faith, for this is exactly what God does do. (c) In Rom. 3:25, the passage to which Coccejus appeals, the apostle uses the word paresis (overlooking or passing over), not because the individual believers in the Old Testament did not receive full pardon of sin, but because during the old dispensation the forgiveness of sin assumed the form of a paresis, as long as sin had not been adequately punished in Christ, and the absolute righteousness of Christ had not been revealed in the cross.

2. THE CHARACTER THIS COVENANT ASSUMED FOR CHRIST. Though the covenant of redemption is the eternal basis of the covenant of grace, and, as far as sinners are concerned, also its eternal prototype, it was for Christ a covenant of works rather than a covenant of grace. For Him the law of the original covenant applied, namely, that eternal life could only be obtained by meeting the demands of the law. As the last Adam Christ obtains eternal life for sinners in reward for faithful obedience, and not at all as an unmerited gift of grace. And what He has done as the Representative and Surety of all His people, they are no more in duty bound to do. The work has been done, the reward is merited, and believers are made partakers of the fruits of Christ’s accomplished work through grace.

3. CHRIST’S WORK IN THE COVENANT LIMITED BY THE DECREE OF ELECTION. Some have identified the covenant of redemption and election; but this is clearly a mistake. Election has reference to the selection of the persons destined to be the heirs of everlasting glory in Christ. The counsel of redemption, on the other hand, refers to the way in which and the means by which grace and glory are prepared for sinners. Election, indeed, also has reference to Christ and reckons with Christ, for believers are said to be elected in Him. Christ Himself is, in a sense, the object of election, but in the counsel of redemption He is one of the contracting parties. The Father deals with Christ as the Surety of His people. Logically, election precedes the counsel of redemption, because the suretyship of Christ, like His atonement, is particular. If there were no preceding election, it would necessarily be universal. Moreover, to turn this around would be equivalent to making the suretyship of Christ the ground of election, while Scripture bases election entirely on the good pleasure of God.

4. CONNECTION OF THE SACRAMENTS USED BY CHRIST WITH THE COVENANT. Christ used the sacraments of both the Old and the New Testament. It is evident, however, that they could not mean for Him what they do for believers. In His case they could be neither symbols nor seals of saving grace; nor could they be instrumental in strengthening saving faith. If we distinguish, as we are doing, between the covenant of redemption and the covenant of grace, then the sacraments were for Christ in all probability sacraments of the former rather than of the latter. Christ took upon Himself in the covenant of redemption to meet the demands of the law. These had assumed a definite form when Christ was on earth and also included positive religious regulations. The sacraments formed a part of this law, and therefore Christ had to subject Himself to them, Matt. 3:15. At the same time they could serve as seals of the promises which the Father had given to the Son. The objection may be raised to this representation that the sacraments were indeed fit symbols and seals of the removal of sin and of the nourishment of spiritual life, but from the nature of the case could not have this meaning for Christ, who had no sin and needed no spiritual nourishment. The objection may be met, at least to a certain extent, by calling attention to the fact that Christ appeared on earth in a public and official capacity. Though He had no personal sin, and no sacrament could therefore signify and seal to Him its removal, yet He was made to be sin for His people, II Cor. 5:21, by being burdened with their guilt; and consequently the sacraments could signify the removal of this burden, according to the promise of the Father, after He had completed His atoning work. Again, though we cannot speak of Christ as exercising saving faith in the sense in which this is required of us, yet as Mediator He had to exercise faith in a wider sense by accepting the promises of the Father believingly, and by trusting the Father for their fulfilment. And the sacraments could serve as signs and seals to strengthen this faith as far as His human nature was concerned.


The Doctrines of men. If you have Scripture that is relevant to the topic, and an understanding of your own through study, please present that.

I am not going to waste time addressing your holy writings of men.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
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pt3;
D. REQUIREMENTS AND PROMISES IN THE COVENANT OF REDEMPTION.
1. REQUIREMENTS. The Father required of the Son, who appeared in this covenant as the Surety and Head of His people, and as the last Adam, that He should make amends for the sin of Adam and of those whom the Father had given Him, and should do what Adam failed to do by keeping the law and thus securing eternal life for all His spiritual progeny. This requirement included the following particulars:

a. That He should assume human nature by being born of a woman, and thus enter into temporal relations; and that He should assume this nature with its present infirmities, though without sin, Gal. 4:4,5; Heb. 2:10,11,14,15; 4:15. It was absolutely essential that He should become one of the human race.

b. That He, who as the Son of God was superior to the law, should place Himself under the law; that He should enter, not merely into the natural, but also into the penal and federal relation to the law, in order to pay the penalty for sin and to merit everlasting life for the elect, Ps. 40:8; Matt. 5:17,18; John 8:28,29; Gal. 4:4,5; Phil. 2:6-8.

c. That He, after having merited forgiveness of sins and eternal life for His own, should apply to them the fruits of His merits: complete pardon, and the renewal of their lives through the powerful operation of the Holy Spirit. By doing this He would render it absolutely certain that believers would consecrate their lives to God, John 10:16; John 16:14,15; 17:12,19-22; Heb. 2: 10-13; 7:25.

2. PROMISES. The promises of the Father were in keeping with His requirements. He promised the Son all that was required for the performance of His great and comprehensive task, thereby excluding all uncertainty in the operation of this covenant. These promises included the following:

a. That He would prepare the Son a body, which would be a fit tabernacle for him; a body in part prepared by the immediate agency of God and uncontaminated by sin, Luke 1:35; Heb. 10:5.

b. That He would endow Him with the necessary gifts and graces for the performance of His task, and particularly would anoint Him for the Messianic offices by giving Him the Spirit without measure, a promise that was fulfilled especially at the time of His baptism, Isa. 42:1,2; 61:1; John 3:31.

c. That He would support Him in the performance of His work, would deliver Him from the power of death, and would thus enable Him to destroy the dominion of Satan and to establish the Kingdom of God, Isa. 42:1-7; 49:8; Ps. 16:8-11; Acts 2:25-28.

d. That He would enable Him, as a reward for His accomplished work, to send out the Holy Spirit for the formation of His spiritual body, and for the instruction, guidance, and protection of the Church, John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14; Acts 2:33.

e. That He would give unto Him a numerous seed in reward for His accomplished work, a seed so numerous that it would be a multitude which no man could number, so that ultimately the Kingdom of the Messiah would embrace the people of all nations and tongues, Ps. 22:27; 72:17.

f. That He would commit to Him all power in heaven and on earth for the government of the world and of His Church, Matt. 28:18; Eph. 1:20-22; Phil. 2:9-11; Heb. 2:5-9; and would finally reward Him as Mediator with the glory which He as the Son of God had with the Father before the world was, John 17:5.


The Doctrines of men. If you have Scripture that is relevant to the topic, and an understanding of your own through study, please present that.

I am not going to waste time addressing your holy writings of men.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
pt4;
E. THE RELATION OF THIS COVENANT TO THE COVENANT OF GRACE.
The following points indicate the relation in which this covenant stands to the covenant of grace:

1. The counsel of redemption is the eternal prototype of the historical covenant of grace. This accounts for the fact that many combine the two into a single covenant. The former is eternal, that is, from eternity, and the latter, temporal in the sense that it is realized in time. The former is a compact between the Father and the Son as the Surety and Head of the elect, while the latter is a compact between the triune God and the elect sinner in the Surety.

2. The counsel of redemption is the firm and eternal foundation of the covenant of grace. If there had been no eternal counsel of peace between the Father and the Son, there could have been no agreement between the triune God and sinful men. The counsel of redemption makes the covenant of grace possible.

3. The counsel of redemption consequently also gives efficacy to the covenant of grace, for in it the means are provided for the establishment and execution of the latter. It is only by faith that the sinner can obtain the blessings of the covenant, and in the counsel of redemption the way of faith is opened. The Holy Spirit, which produces faith in the sinner, was promised to Christ by the Father, and the acceptance of the way of life through faith was guaranteed by Christ.

The covenant of redemption may be defined as the agreement between the Father, giving the Son as Head and Redeemer of the elect, and the Son, voluntarily taking the place of those whom the Father had given Him.


This is for starters and for anyone who would like to learn truth.

http://www.blogos.org/exploringtheword/Covenant-Theology-4-Redemption.php


The Doctrines of men. If you have Scripture that is relevant to the topic, and an understanding of your own through study, please present that.

I am not going to waste time addressing your holy writings of men.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Coccejus and his school maintained that in the counsel of peace Christ became a fidejussor, and that consequently Old Testament believers enjoyed no complete forgiveness of sins. From Rom. 3:25 they inferred that for those saints there was only a paresis, an overlooking of sin, and no aphesis or complete forgiveness, until Christ really made atonement for sin. Their opponents asserted, however, that Christ took upon Himself unconditionally to render satisfaction for His people, and therefore became a surety in the specific sense of an expromissor. This is the only tenable position, for: (a) Old Testament believers received full justification or forgiveness, though the knowledge of it was not as full and clear as it is in the New Testament dispensation. There was no essential difference between the status of the Old, and that of the New Testament believers, Ps. 32:1,2,5; 51:1-3, 9-11; 103:3,12; Isa. 43:25; Rom. 3:3,6-16; Gal. 3:6-9.

This example of the Doctrines of Men makes the point that "This is the only tenable position, for: (a) Old Testament believers received full justification or forgiveness, though the knowledge of it was not as full and clear as it is in the New Testament dispensation."

Let's compare that with Scripture:


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)


1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.



The above speaks to the state of those under Law, the Covenant that was God-ordained.

This...



Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



...contrasts those in relationship with God through the Promised New Covenant which those in relationship with God looked forward to based on God's Promise. It is the New Covenant, not some mythical "covenant of redemption" outside of time, that men are reconciled to God through.

The state of the Old Testament Saint was not one of...

"...Old Testament believers received full justification or forgiveness, though the knowledge of it was not as full and clear as it is in the New Testament dispensation."

...but one of expectation of redemption through Christ.

And, to swing this back to the Topic of the OP, we can consider that the infant that dies in the womb is identical in condition to that of the Old Testament Saint, for God can declare just and show mercy to those of an understanding that He fully understands because He Himself is the One that gives the relevant revelation by which men can be saved. And He is just not to charge sin where sin is not deserved.

The Doctrines of Men can seem plausible, but, when we see that the conclusions are based on premises that conflict with what Scripture actually teaches, we can begin to see the error of their doctrine.

And the real reason for these doctrines? To support Systematic Theologies.

This is why we have people too afraid to publicly declare what they believe. Because they know their doctrine conflicts and that people, even the unregenerate, are going to see their doctrine as conflicting with simple truths revealed by God.

That is why they must appeal to the Doctrines of men, and give vague references to the Word of God, because if someone actually looked at the Scripture they give as proof-texts, it will be quickly revealed the Word of God doe not teach what they do.


God bless.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Darrell C,

The Doctrines of men. If you have Scripture that is relevant to the topic, and an understanding of your own through study, please present that.

I am not going to waste time addressing your holy writings of men.

The Doctrines of Men can seem plausible, but, when we see that the conclusions are based on premises that conflict with what Scripture actually teaches, we can begin to see the error of their doctrine.

And the real reason for these doctrines? To support Systematic Theologies.

This is why we have people too afraid to publicly declare what they believe. Because they know their doctrine conflicts and that people, even the unregenerate, are going to see their doctrine as conflicting with simple truths revealed by God.

That is why they must appeal to the Doctrines of men, and give vague references to the Word of God, because if someone actually looked at the Scripture they give as proof-texts, it will be quickly revealed the Word of God doe not teach what they do.


Do not give what is holy to dogs - If someone isn’t open to listen to you, there’s no reason to continue speaking.

Solomon writes...

Do not reprove (Hebrew word yakach includes ideas of education, discipline, teaching and admonishing) a scoffer (speaks words showing no respect for the reprover), lest he hate you. Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. (Proverbs 9:8) (Reproof is wasted on a "scoffer" because the more shallow and foolish the person is, the less willing he is to listen to wise, godly counsel)

Jamieson, F, B -

The opposite extreme to that of censoriousness is here condemned—want of discrimination of character.... Religion is brought into contempt, and its professors insulted, when it is forced upon those who cannot value it and will not have it. But while the indiscriminately zealous have need of this caution, let us be on our guard against too readily setting our neighbors down as dogs and swine, and excusing ourselves from endeavoring to do them good on this poor plea.&

Spurgeon writes...

There are some holy enjoyments, some gracious experiences, some deep doctrines of the Word of God, which it would be out of place to speak of before certain profane and unclean persons. They would only make a jest of them; perhaps they might persecute you on account of them.
No; holy things are for holy men; and as of old the crier in the Grecian temple was wont to say, before the mysteries were performed, “&Far hence, ye profane!&” so sometimes, before we enter into the innermost circle of Christian converse, it would be well for us to notice who is listening.

***

Zeal should always be tempered by prudence. There are times when it would be treason to truth to introduce it as a topic of conversation,-when men are in such a frame of mind that they will be sure rather to cavil at it than to believe it. Not only speak thou well, but speak thou at the right time, for silence is sometimes golden. See that thou hast thy measure of golden silence as well as of silver speech.

***

When men are evidently unable to perceive the purity of a great truth, do not set it before them.
They are like mere dogs, and if you set holy things before them they will be provoked to “&turn again and rend you&”:
holy things are not for the profane.
“&Without are dogs&”: they must not be allowed to enter the holy place.

When you are in the midst of the vicious, who are like “&swine,&” do not bring forth the precious mysteries of the faith, for they will despise them, and “&trample them under their feet&” in the mire.

You are not needlessly to provoke attack upon yourself, or upon the higher truths of the gospel. You are not to judge, but you are not to act without judgment. Count not men to be dogs or swine;

but when they avow themselves to be such, or by their conduct act as if they were such, do not put occasions in their way for displaying their evil character.

Saints are not to be simpletons; they are not to be judges, but, also, they are not to be fools.

So.....have a nice day:Unsure :Wink :Cautious
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"Darrell C,






Do not give what is holy to dogs - If someone isn’t open to listen to you, there’s no reason to continue speaking.

Solomon writes...

Do not reprove (Hebrew word yakach includes ideas of education, discipline, teaching and admonishing) a scoffer (speaks words showing no respect for the reprover), lest he hate you. Reprove a wise man, and he will love you. (Proverbs 9:8) (Reproof is wasted on a "scoffer" because the more shallow and foolish the person is, the less willing he is to listen to wise, godly counsel)

Jamieson, F, B -

The opposite extreme to that of censoriousness is here condemned—want of discrimination of character.... Religion is brought into contempt, and its professors insulted, when it is forced upon those who cannot value it and will not have it. But while the indiscriminately zealous have need of this caution, let us be on our guard against too readily setting our neighbors down as dogs and swine, and excusing ourselves from endeavoring to do them good on this poor plea.&

Spurgeon writes...

There are some holy enjoyments, some gracious experiences, some deep doctrines of the Word of God, which it would be out of place to speak of before certain profane and unclean persons. They would only make a jest of them; perhaps they might persecute you on account of them.
No; holy things are for holy men; and as of old the crier in the Grecian temple was wont to say, before the mysteries were performed, “&Far hence, ye profane!&” so sometimes, before we enter into the innermost circle of Christian converse, it would be well for us to notice who is listening.

***

Zeal should always be tempered by prudence. There are times when it would be treason to truth to introduce it as a topic of conversation,-when men are in such a frame of mind that they will be sure rather to cavil at it than to believe it. Not only speak thou well, but speak thou at the right time, for silence is sometimes golden. See that thou hast thy measure of golden silence as well as of silver speech.

***

When men are evidently unable to perceive the purity of a great truth, do not set it before them.
They are like mere dogs, and if you set holy things before them they will be provoked to “&turn again and rend you&”:
holy things are not for the profane.
“&Without are dogs&”: they must not be allowed to enter the holy place.

When you are in the midst of the vicious, who are like “&swine,&” do not bring forth the precious mysteries of the faith, for they will despise them, and “&trample them under their feet&” in the mire.

You are not needlessly to provoke attack upon yourself, or upon the higher truths of the gospel. You are not to judge, but you are not to act without judgment. Count not men to be dogs or swine;

but when they avow themselves to be such, or by their conduct act as if they were such, do not put occasions in their way for displaying their evil character.

Saints are not to be simpletons; they are not to be judges, but, also, they are not to be fools.

So.....have a nice day:Unsure :Wink :Cautious

Well, any cop-out will do, I reckon.

But if you ever get around to sharing this great understanding you have with me, Iconoclast, I will still ask that you show from Scripture this Covenant of Redemption, and perhaps a straightforward answer as to whether you think God sends babies to Hell or not.

Your words, if you don't mind. I've already told you I am not interested in the doctrines of men, nor what they have to say about it.

So perhaps I am a fool, a dog, and a simpleton as you imply here, but...

...at least I can speak for myself and I do not have to tell people I believe something because my System demands it of me.


God bless.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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Darrell C said:
The Doctrines of men. If you have Scripture that is relevant to the topic, and an understanding of your own through study, please present that.

I am not going to waste time addressing your holy writings of men.


.
Your post makes no sense. Everyone posting to you is a man.
Biblicist is a man, MM is a man,I am a man.
Any doctrine we offer will be....the doctrines of men...
Why are you here DC......you ask me that and yet we are men.
Answers were given...it does not really matter who offered them does it?
So....it does appear that you fit the person those saints warned me about
 
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Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
It means quote Scripture not one of the London Baptist Confessions or the Westminister.
Your post makes no sense. Everyone posting to you is a man.
Biblicist is a man, MM is a man,I am a man.
Any doctrine we offer will be....the doctrines of men...
Why are you here DC......you ask me that and yet we are men.
Answers were given...it does not really matter who offered them does it?
So....it does appear that you fit the person those saints warned me about
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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It means quote Scripture not one of the London Baptist Confessions or the Westminister.
Hello Squire
Perhaps you will take some time to notice that the confessions of faith are loaded with scripture .
That is why people enjoy them, if I cannot improve upon what they write, why should I offer an inferior thought.
If it helps you.......make believe I wrote what is contained in the link....
The content will be the same.......if I post it....I will defend it.

Squire.....if you would like why not offer a part you do not agree with and I will interact with you on. It directly.

I tried with DC.....but he is non responsive to the direct interaction.
I mentioned a sport.....without using the name of the sport......I asked him by the description given to identify the sport....I asked several times....he did not respond,knowing that it proves the point in question.

Those who complain about the links, do so because they cannot answer them without being shown to be in error.
 
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Iconoclast

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Darrell C

Well, any cop-out will do, I reckon.
Your failure to interact could be seen as a "copout"....

But if you ever get around to sharing this great understanding you have with me, Iconoclast
,

No...you have turned from it...I will obey what these past saints have spoken of.

I will still ask that you show from Scripture this Covenant of Redemption

These quotes show it....that you are not interested is between you and God.

, and perhaps a straightforward answer as to whether you think God sends babies to Hell or not.
:Alien
this has been answered in several ways.....you cannot process it, or you can but cannot admit you have been answered indeed.

I've already told you I am not interested in the doctrines of men, nor what they have to say about it.

So perhaps I am a fool, a dog, and a simpleton as you imply here, but...

see here;
You are not needlessly to provoke attack upon yourself, or upon the higher truths of the gospel. You are not to judge, but you are not to act without judgment. Count not men to be dogs or swine;

but when they avow themselves to be such, or by their conduct act as if they were such, do not put occasions in their way for displaying their evil character.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
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Perhaps you will take some time to notice that the confessions of faith are loaded with scripture .

And I addressed your confession, asked questions, and pointed out that the Scripture in the second part was irrelevant to Infant Death and Salvation.

So your doctrines of men do not even apply.

Here are my responses to your post:

Iconoclast said:

I do not think anyone can say it better than what was written here;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )


Now here is the interesting thing that might be discussed: regeneration primarily refers to the spiritual resurrection God effects in the physical life of a believer. Now my own position, that men were not regenerated under Old Testament Economies, allows that the Old Testament Saint was made perfect (complete in regards to Atonement and thus reconciled to God) which can be, I think, seen paralleled in this issue.

So here is the question: when is the infant's separation from God removed? While yet alive? or at death?

Secondly, we do not really see the opportunity for the infant to receive revelation (some babies are aborted, for example, in very early stages of development, which many of us would still recognize as an individual human being), so do we not see God's Grace at it's greatest in the instance of the aborted child?




Iconoclast said:

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )



Agree with that entirely.



Iconoclast said:

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

I agree with that too, however, that is going to generate a question for some, if we make it a matter of Election (which has for some the counterpart, the non-elect), which is the question of the OP: are there non-elect babies that do not benefit from the Grace of God?

I think most of us would say no, but as I said in the OP, several very well known Reformed teachers could not really answer the question, and those who did, did so poorly (but you know how critical I am, lol). I think that for some of them, they would have answered "Yes, babies that are non-elect go to Hell," had they answered it. I'm going to listen to that again, because I seem to remember one of them giving the implication.




Iconoclast said:

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )


This is an interesting statement: it implies, in my view, that there is a calling that is not effectual.

Where is this taken from?


God bless.



In all of this...you do not offer the first Scripture to support what little you have had to contribute to this discussion. You have wasted the entire thread...talking about me.

What in the above is said that offends you? There is not a single thing. But, since you showed your hand and have made it clear your only goal was to show "this would happen," I guess my only recourse is either continued showing you examples from the conversation and hope someone else might want to join the conversation despite your disruption.

This is a debate forum, Iconoclast, and it is ironic you charge me with trolling and spam when I am not the one simply copy and pasting and trying to work in insults. That's your only contribution that actually comes from you.

And your confession has problems itself.

For example...it does not make a positive statement about non-elect infants.

I mean really, if you are going to copy and paste...find something relevant to the questions posed to you.



I tried with DC.....but he is non responsive to the direct interaction.

And only you would see it that way. It is my response that has angered you, and apparently you are still upset with me. I am truly sorry for that, but, it is not my responsibility to make you like me, that something you have deal with internally.


Continued...
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
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I mentioned a sport.....without using the name of the sport......I asked him by the description given to identify the sport....I asked several times....he did not respond,knowing that it proves the point in question.

I did respond:


Iconoclast said:

I can have some fun with this-

If I am reading the sports page and read an article that discusses and mentions the following items;
the strike zone
a stolen base
the pitchers mound
two doubles
a balk
a single
a grand slam
an earned run average
a batting average
the foul pole
the plate umpire

Would you struggle mightily to grasp what sport the article was speaking about?
Would you deny that sport exists because it was not mentioned by the name of it ?
If everyone other than you knew exactly what sport was being spoken about would you dismiss all of them?
If you denied the sport existed after reading all the elements and descriptions....do you think anyone should take you seriously after such objections???




So far your participation has been exposed, by yourself, as a conspiratorial attempt to prove that only argment will ensue, and...that you are here to have fun.


Iconoclast...I actually want to discuss the topic of the OP.

That is why the first thread was started, and that is why this thread has been started, because the other was closed before too many presented their views.

Seven people stated God does not send babies to Hell and voted in the poll. Two people implied they believed God sends babies to Hell, but did not have the gumption or courage to publicly state their doctrine. Is that how Christians hold to doctrine, Iconoclast? Secretively?

Or do we boldly declare our beliefs and why we believe them?

Again, you think there is implicit teaching concerning the Covenant of Redemption (which is really what you want to talk about, you have no interest in the topic of the OP), so where is the Scripture?



It's simply amazing, really. It boggles the mind to think that this kind of posting could be considered debate.

I've talked to you about this before, Iconoclast. Your posts are sloppy, and you do not properly quote your Antagonists.

You have been asked for Scripture for a basis for this covenant of redemption you speak of, and if you have, I apologize, because I have lost interest in anything you have to say, really. I will address the next post and highlight what is relevant to the discussion.


God bless.
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Darrell C


Your failure to interact could be seen as a "copout"....

,

No...you have turned from it...I will obey what these past saints have spoken of.



These quotes show it....that you are not interested is between you and God.

:Alien
this has been answered in several ways.....you cannot process it, or you can but cannot admit you have been answered indeed.



see here;
You are not needlessly to provoke attack upon yourself, or upon the higher truths of the gospel. You are not to judge, but you are not to act without judgment. Count not men to be dogs or swine;

but when they avow themselves to be such, or by their conduct act as if they were such, do not put occasions in their way for displaying their evil character.


Well, no emphasis on my part, because there is absolutely nothing that actually speaks to the topic.

Now will you please make a public statement concerning infants that die in the womb, whether all shall be saved, or not all, and fill in the gaps in your holy writings which are silent on non-elect infants?

Does God send non-elect infants to Hell, Iconoclast?


God bless.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well, no emphasis on my part, because there is absolutely nothing that actually speaks to the topic.

Now will you please make a public statement concerning infants that die in the womb, whether all shall be saved, or not all, and fill in the gaps in your holy writings which are silent on non-elect infants?

Does God send non-elect infants to Hell, Iconoclast?


God bless.
3 more non responsive posts.....
You are looking like the person being described by those former commentators..... ...
:Alien:Alien:Alien:Alien;);)
 

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
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3 more non responsive posts.....
You are looking like the person being described by those former commentators..... ...
:Alien:Alien:Alien:Alien;);)

Gosh, guess I am just going to have to yield to your wit, Iconoclast. Just no way to debate someone like you.


God bless.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Darrell C
I will help you with this DC.....as you seem to get confused-

If I am reading the sports page and read an article that discusses and mentions the following items;
the strike zone
a stolen base
the pitchers mound
two doubles
a balk
a single
a grand slam
an earned run average
a batting average
the foul pole
the plate umpire

Would you struggle mightily to grasp what sport the article was speaking about?
Would you deny that sport exists because it was not mentioned by the name of it ?
If everyone other than you knew exactly what sport was being spoken about would you dismiss all of them?
If you denied the sport existed after reading all the elements and descriptions....do you think anyone should take you seriously after such objections???

THE QUESTION IS WHICH SPORT IS DESCRIBED BY THE ABOVE????


NAME WHICH SPORT DC>>>>HERE ARE YOUR CHOICES-

1]BASEBALL
2] Football
3]Tennis
4]Lacrosse

Focus DC....pick a sport.


So far your participation has been exposed, by yourself, as a conspiratorial attempt
A conspiracy?

to prove that only argment will ensue
,
that was up to you....

and...that you are here to have fun.
I do have fun....

Iconoclast...I actually want to discuss the topic of the OP.

We have seen that is not the case....

That is why the first thread was started, and that is why this thread has been started, because the other was closed before too many presented their views.

Let me help you here.....someone needs to explain it to you....the threads get closed because you are a serial thread killer....others have requested you shorten your posts...you ignore them. They no longer want to participate because you ignore what they say, and argue more about how they say what they do, and what you think , so they lose interest in posting.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DC said;

). I think that for some of them, they would have answered "Yes, babies that are non-elect go to Hell," had they answered it.

and they, like you, did not want to come out and say "Yes, I believe it is God's Eternal Purpose to send some babies to Hell."

So step up, Iconoclast, and just say it.

You do not have the courage to come right out and say it...that you believe God sends babies to Hell.
Seven people stated God does not send babies to Hell and voted in the poll. Two people implied they believed God sends babies to Hell, but did not have the gumption or courage to publicly state their doctrine. Is that how Christians hold to doctrine, Iconoclast? Secretively?

What's the problem, Iconoclast, if you think there are non-elect infants that die and go into eternal separation...

...just say so.

So how about the non-elect infants, Iconoclast?
Here's a short one: what happens to non-elect infants that die?
Okay, great, but what about...the non-elect infants that die?

I've asked several times.

If you believe there are non-elect infants that God sends to Hell...why won't you admit it?

And a statement about non-elect infants, as well, seeing you, and only one other member have actually implied God sends babies to Hell.

These were all posted in this thread.

The thread is dealing with "Infant death and SALVATION"....

you seem obsessed with this thought over and over;
non elect infants
non elect infants being sent to hell


DC....could you show where you see NON ELECT INFANTS?

WHICH INFANTS ARE YOU THINKING OF?
ARE THERE MANY OF THEM?
YOU WANT ME TO DISCUSS THEM....COULD YOU SHOW THEY EXIST FIRST?
 
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