Featured Why is New Birth necessary?

Here are the Old Testament Saints:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Let's look at where this word is used elsewhere in Hebrews:



Hebrews 2:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.



Hebrews 5:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Hebrews 7:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.



Hebrews 7:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.



Hebrews 9:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



Hebrews 10:1

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



Hebrews 11:40

King James Version (KJV)

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Hebrews 12:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Just a simple reading of these verses coupled with an understanding of what the word mean will help us to see that in view is the bringing to an end, a completion, of that which the Writer is talking about.

In Chapter Ten, for example, the context deals primarily with Remission of Sins, and his point is that those under Law (and by extension all who offered up sacrifice) were not made complete in regards to sin, but, those that have been sanctified by Christ have been made complete forever in regards to Remission of sins.

We see the transgressions of the Old Testament Saints redeemed by the Blood of Christ here:


Hebrews 9:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The perfection in view has nothing to do with physical resurrection, it refers to being made complete in Christ through New Covenant Realtionship.


Continued...

 

Well come back when you can participate in detail. No point in trying to continue in a discussion that you have no intention of addressing all of the points in. Anyone can justify their Theology if they only consider what they think agrees with their own views. It is only when you challenge your position in full, Martin, that you will be able to truly challenge the Doctrine you hold.


God bless.

 

I know this will thrill your circumcised heart. We agree on something. Perfect in Hebrews 11:39,40 is speaking of our glorified state in body.

And I do not think the body of Abraham or anyone else changed at the death and resurrection of Christ, other than Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, the heir of God.

 

Wait, let me put this back together:

Glorification fulfills all the promises that these saints looked for?

A few problems with that is...

1. There are many promises besides a glorified body given by God;

2. We see in Hebrews that the Just spirits of men have been made perfect;

3. It is the spirit of men made perfect, not their physical bodies;

4. It is obvious to us that no-one except Christ has been glorified and that the promises are fulfilled in the New Covenant in the lifetime of the believer...

...while he is alive.

There is no physical aspect to the fulfillment of the promises of God for us right now, and that we await redemption of our bodies does not mean we have not received many promises.

Here is an example:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Here is that promise:


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Quite a bit different from the command of that day:


Ezekiel 18:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


And the way to get a new heart and spirit?

Keep the Covenant of Law.

If Christ taught men that had died were in Hades, what is foolish is not to accept that because it doesn't fit into one's personal theology:



Luke 16:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


And you are forgetting that the Old Testament Saint...

...was justified.

Big difference between speaking of them as you do, as merely unregenerate men. They were unregenerate men that were ministered to by the Spirit of God, and were in relationship to Him through the Ministry He performed in those Ages.

That is the source of their Justification, but, we do not equate that to being justified by the Blood of Christ:


Romans 3:23-26

King James Version (KJV)


23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


If we teach salvation by faith through grace we are going to end up teaching the doctrines of man. We can see the consistency of the Grace of God throughout Scripture, and we see that God does not have to regenerate a man while he is alive in order for that individual to be secure from the Eternal Perspective. This is absolutely the case with all Old Testament Saints who died not having their sins forgiven through Christ nor being justified by the Blood of Christ.

Redemption in Christ is not to be equated to the declaration of righteousness of men which is so clearly based on...what they did.

Abraham was saved, no question, and this despite not being regenerate nor being reconciled to God through Christ, nor, having the Eternal Indwelling that would begin when Christ sent the Comforter.

And that is the same Grace we can expect a Just God to bestow upon infants who die in the womb.


God bless.

 

And you still refuse to address the Scriptural presentation that is given to support the Position.

Okay, Biblicist...I release you.

This discussion is done for now. I will at a future time take it back up with you, and hopefully you will have had some time to think about what you have been told. Ignoring your antagonist's points and arguments, and the Scripture provided to you will never allow you to be a successful defender of the Faith.

When you come to finally understand the magnitude of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you will then be able to deal with any argument presented to you successfully.


God bless.

 

I used YLT because of the translation of τετελειωμένον as, having been perfected. Use completed if you prefer.


YLT Hebrews 7:23 and those indeed are many who have become priests, because by death they are hindered from remaining; ---- Levites.

YLT Hebrews 7:26-28 For such a chief priest did become us -- kind, harmless, undefiled, separate from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens, who hath no necessity daily, as the chief priests, first for his own sins to offer up sacrifice, then for those of the people; for this he did once, having offered up himself; (Died, as dead as dead can be, for our sins.) for the law doth appoint men chief priests, having infirmity, but the word of the oath that is after the law appointeth the Son -- to the age having been perfected.

What Son? What is this having been perfected and or completed, to the age?

The Son. Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. --- That is speaking of God the Father raising Jesus the Son from the dead. What does the word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit have to say about that having been raised from the dead. That dead as dead can be of which the sinless Son offered himself up, by.

KJV will be fine here. Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

That is how the Father, to the age having been perfected, the Son.

YLT Acts 17:2,3 and according to the custom of Paul, he went in unto them, and for three sabbaths he was reasoning with them from the Writings, opening and alleging, 'That the Christ it behoved to suffer, and to rise again out of the dead, and that this is the Christ -- Jesus whom I proclaim to you.'

The resurrection was necessary for life from the dead as dead can be. Spirit, from God gives life, being, soul if you will to the flesh. Jesus commended that life, spirit, into the hands of the Father. Jesus did not go to the Father, Jesus was dead as dead can be, his soul to Hades his body of flesh to a borrowed tomb. Jesus was dead as dead can be for three days and three nights and on the morrow after that, Jesus the given again life, man, the Son of God ascended to his God and his Father to be accepted for us and his Father would then be Our God and our Father.
Jesus was quickened by the Spirit after three days and three nights. Whatever quickened means. Jesus was thus so.

 

That is the whole point of the post, Percho, to point out the use of the word in other places, and we see that completion is in view. Not the modern use of the word.

It is a bringing to an end, rather than making something as "good" as it can be.

The YLT is not a very good translation in respect to bringing out the understanding the Writer is speaking in. We do not, for example, see the intent of "everlasting" in...age during.

There is no "perfected and or..."

In view is the Son of God, Who took upon Himself the flesh of man...bringing to an end that which He came for. He is not made acceptable in the sense of having gone from one state to another at which time He can then present Himself an offering for sin...that is a continuous quality in Him that never changed though He took on the flesh of man.

The Writer contrasts that which is incomplete (not being finished) with that which is complete (brought to an end, finished).

No Percho, it isn't speaking about Christ's death...it is speaking about His Incarnation Hebrews 5:5). In view is His Priesthood and the fact that He was called of God. If you notice, when you read on you see it describes the "days of His flesh." The point is that Christ was called of God even as the Levitical Priesthood was, even as Melcisedec was.


Hebrews 5:4-9

King James Version (KJV)


4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


The point is that Christ was called of God, ordained unto that mission of Atonement (which was previously a position held by Priests who served in the temporal role of Priest, Christ in the Eternal).

Atonement was finished on the Cross, that is something you need to understand.

That He is made complete through His death is true, that is the reason He can bestow eternal salvation (redemption, Hebrews 9:12), because He finished the necessary Work needed in order for man to be reconciled to God. His Priesthood is often overlooked, but, Christ is Prophet, Priest, and King, and that which He accomplished as our Great High Priest is seen in both the Incarnation and His being glorified.

KJV is a great translation. In my view the Translators show a good understanding of the Word of God. There are some places where there could be improvement, but, it is preferable to the YLT in that it is more understandable. I have recommended to you before to stop using the YLT, because I think it is confusing you on some issues which are made more clear in the KJV, and, we see even more clear in certain places in other translations. Do you recall that at one point you said you thought Christ had to be born again? I think the literal translations in the YLT contribute to misunderstandings like that.

This sentence...

That is how the Father, to the age having been perfected, the Son.

...makes little sense to English speaking people in our day. It does not carry what the Writer is trying to say, and it does not fit into the context of the overall teaching of the Writer of Hebrews.

You are saying basically, "The Father made the Son perfect through Death," when what the Writer is saying is "Because of what He did He was made complete in regards to being the One Who completes."

That is why He (the Son) is called...


Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

(see link)


You are presenting it as the Father brought about that completion, when it is tied directly to the Incarnation and Work of Christ. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. That end was accomplished by Christ on the Cross.

That is why He is Complete, and the Completer of faith, and He that bestows eternal life.

Not age during.

This is true, but you are confusing physical death with spiritual death.

That was man's condition, Percho, that is how he was "dead as dead can be." That is why he did not have life, though he had/has physical life.

You are making the Son of God a man only in denying the fact that the Son of God was never dead spiritually, and never died spiritually.

Christ did not need to be born again as man did/does.

When He died on the Cross, He said...it is finished. The thought that Christ suffered the Second Death after His physical death is borderline heresy. Atonement was complete when He died on the Cross, there was no secondary penalty He payed after death.


Continued...

 

The flesh has nothing to do with the spiritual resurrection Christ bestows in the reuniting of fallen man to God. THat is the New Borth, Percho.

He didn't?


Hebrews 9:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


His offering was made in the Holiest of All, Percho. Just because He said...


John 20:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


...does not mean that the Son of God did not, while physically dead...enter into the Holiest of All.

In view above is the fact that in His resurrected Body He had not yet ascended.

But Percho, you have to keep in mind that Christ was God manifest in the flesh, and that at no time was He separated...

...from Himself.

No, Percho, we have discussed this several times, lol. His "soul" can be said to have gone to Hades because His "soul" refers to His Person.

But it is His Spirit that went into Hades. Making the "soul" an immaterial aspect of man's make-up does not reflect what Christ Himself said:


Luke 24:36-39

King James Version (KJV)


36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


When Christ died His Spirit separated from His Body...just as is the case when all men die.

And His Spirit...was not dead.

He was not like man, "dead as dead can be," for His death was that Work which made Him...Complete to be the Completer. He is the One that, through His death, makes men complete.

Jesus is He that gives life, Percho, this is stated numerous times throughout the New Testament.

He did not become complete and the Author of Eternal Salvation because He had to first die then ascend, He was always the Author of Eternal Salvation for He is the Creator.


John 10:17-18

King James Version (KJV)


17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


You are presenting a concept of Christ had to die so that He would be acceptable to the Father...that is not the case.

He is God, Percho. He veiled His glory in the flesh of man, He chose to die on the Cross, and He had the power to take His life again.

And this deals with...the Incarnation. He died physically...only. That was sufficient to appease the penalty of sin.

Quickened simply means made alive, and the Resurrection was the resurrection of the physical flesh God manifested in, and this...in glorified form.

He was not quickened in the Eternal sense as we are. Regeneration deals with our spiritual resurrection from the dead, we, being separated from union with God at conception...are dead as dead can be. Christ is the Author of Eternal Salvation, not because He died and then obtained that power, but because He took on the Flesh of Man to appease the penalty our condition results in. At no time did the Son of God ever stop being God, and at no time was the Son of God in need of spiritual resurrection.

At no time did He become in a condition like unto all men.

That is why He was the acceptable Offering for sin, Percho.

And I am going out of town, so sorry this is short. May be a while before we get the chance to talk again. Again, I urge you to set aside the YLT and study from a translation that is not as confusing as the YLT. A good option is a parallel Bible that has a couple translations. The best option, in my view, is the MacArthur study Bible, not necessarily because of the footnotes (which are themselves helpful), but because of the cross referencing it contains, which can point you to relevant passages which correlate to the ones you are looking at. The best method of study is to compare Scripture with Scripture, and a good study Bible helps in this effort.

But you have to come to an understanding of what happened on the Cross and after. The singular point I would stress in what I see you saying here is that you have to clarify your understanding on the Person of Christ. He was not a man like unto us that had sin of His own or was separated from God. It is impossible for God to separate Himself from Himself. He never ceased being God the Eternal Son because the flesh He took upon Himself died physically. He did not become spiritually dead at any time in the Incarnation. He did not have to suffer further after physical death to be made perfect, complete, as the Author of Eternal Salvation.

We did.

And that is why He died, that He might make us complete in regards to relationship to God. Through His death reconciliation was made possible.


God bless.

 

Jesus did not go to the Father, while dead. Jesus the Son of the living God was dead. He died for our sins. My bible says KJV The soul Jesus while dead was in hell, YLT Hades.

He was raised from the dead and then ascended to the right hand of the Father.

Both of the translations above say, Spoke of the resurrection or spoke concerning the rising again of the Christ that his soul was not left.

Souls are resurrected and or raised from the dead, in a body chosen of by God. That is exactly what 1 Cor 15 states.

1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead (people, Larry, Curly and Mo souls who are dead) raised up? and with what body do they (the dead souls) come?
2 Cor 5:1 For we (souls) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. The earthly house of tabernacle is our (Soul's) body, both living as long as, breath of the spirit of lives from God is within them.

 

Why is the new birth necessary?

Is that the OP?

I do not believe my threads are off topic.

KJV John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Of water and of Spirit

What man? The man of Genesis 2:7 who had children in his own image after himself.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

How is it a better covenant with better promises? What is different about the second group of people compared to those who God found fault with?

Is the following, the manner in which God rectified the problem of those of the first covenant?

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Gal 4:4 Why made under the law?
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Romans 8:3

Is that what made the New Covenant possible?

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

Romans 1:3,4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Dying to the flesh, quickened to the Spirit.

1 Cor 15:45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Dying to the flesh, quickened to the Spirit.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:26 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth 21 Now; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Spoken prophetically, I am the resurrection and the life.

 

[QUOTE="Darrell C, post: 2243993, member: 9975]Abraham was saved, no question, and this despite not being regenerate nor being reconciled to God through Christ, nor, having the Eternal Indwelling that would begin when Christ sent the Comforter.[/QUOTE]
Why is the New Birth necessary?
It is a three-fold necessity:
Firstly, it is an absolute and vital necessity. 'You [plural] must be born again' (John 3:7). It is a necessity first of all because of who says it. It is Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords and King of kings, who tells us that we must be born again. It is a necessity secondly because of the way He says it. 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' The Greek is Amen, amen, 'verily, verily, truly, truly.' When our Lord uses these words, He is stressing the importance of what He is saying. So the New Birth is not something that would be quite handy to have but not really necessary. No, there is no other way to be saved than to be born again.

Secondly, it is a universal necessity. Unless one is born again......' One, anyone (Greek tis), your Uncle Dick, your Auntie Sue, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Anyone. How many unregenerate people get into the kingdom? None! Not you, not me- no one!The Lord Jesus narrows it right down to Nicodemus and then widens it right out. 'Marvel not that I say unto thee, ye must be born again.'

Thirdly, it is a consequential necessity. We need a new birth on account of our first birth. 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh.' It will always be flesh and can be nothing else but flesh. 'Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:7-8).

So there is no possibility whatsoever of anyone who is unregenerate entering the kingdom of God.