Time Travel Theology

Martin posted that my view of justification by the blood of Christ was "mad." His view is that people who gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant, were fully justified by the "promised" blood of Christ. Their faith "looked forward" to Christ. This view is as mad as a mad hatter. In order for the nameless doctrine advocates to force their man-made doctrines into scripture they must resort to redefining words (i.e. draw always means compel rather than attract by lovingkindness.) They nullify scripture, Matthew 23:13 does not really say that men who were entering heaven were blocked. No that cannot be true because it demonstrates their mistaken doctrine is bogus. But the most egregious misuse of scripture is to ignore the given sequence, and claim the opposite sequence occurred. They put the cart before the horse again and again. How? By the use of time travel. Folks can be washed by the blood of Christ before Christ died. Mad and as ludicrous as this view is, they put it forth again and again, as if repeating an obvious falsehood somehow makes it less of a falsehood. I kid you not.

Abraham had as James would say, "live faith" rather than dead faith. From his faith flowed works, such as offering up Isaac.

Now the bone of contention, if we sidestep all the person insults and misrepresentations of the views of others, is whether we should use the term "justified" when OT saints gain approval through "live faith." Or, the alternate view, should we reserve the term "justified" to only refer to those washed by the actual blood of Christ. This alternate view is the one I advocate. I believe where we see translations use the term justified for OT Saints, that the translation should read "acted righteously." Thus we do not use the term "justified" to mean two very different things, which creates confusion.

"Faith was credited to Abraham for righteousness.” Romans 4:9 (LEB)

Hebrews 11:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.


39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

annsni said:

Hebrews 11:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.


39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

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The key thought here is "that apart from us they should not be made perfect." In other words, being "made perfect" is something that occurs simultaneous "with us" rather than apart from us. They have not been, nor presently are "with us" and won't be until after the resurrection and that is when we are all together being made "perfect" in the same sense Job anticipated but did not received:

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

And in a new heaven and earth when the New Jerusalem comes down upon earth, the city that Abraham looked for on this present earth and did not find.

Deacon said:

"Faith was credited to Abraham for righteousness.” Romans 4:9 (LEB)

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The righteousness of Christ was imputed to him with regard to justification, as was the righteousness of Christ imparted to him by new birth. He was born into this world with an unregenerate spirit, dead in tresspasses and sins, loving darkness more than light, but that human spirit was regenerated by the Spirit of God when God effectually called him from his idol worship through preaching the gospel unto him (Gal. 3:6-8) just as he did us (Gal. 3:6-7). His spirit was no longer "dead" and no longer was he among those who are "children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2-3) and no longer in love with darkness but walked with children of light.

To suppose that Abel, Job, Abraham, Caleb, etc. remained in a spiritual dead condition throughout their life time and entered into sheol as "dead" spirits, thus no different spiritual condition than the spirits of the ungodly is pure fantasy, beyond common sense. Jesus said that a man "must" be born of God and what is born of the Spirit "is spirit" and there are only two possible alternative "born of the flesh" and "born of the Spirit." Paul says that all who are "in the flesh" because they were born of the flesh "are none of his" but that is precisely the doctrinal view of all who deny new birth prior to the cross.

Posts #2 and 3, quote scripture without indicating purpose. Are they in support of the OP, or do they believe these scriptures contradict what was said. Hard to have a conversation beyond scripture is always true.

Post #4 and 5 are nonsense. No verse or passage says or suggests Abraham was "regenerated" before Christ died. None. What scripture actually says is Abel, Abraham, and others gained approval through faith, Hebrews 11.

If any of the OT Saints had been born anew, regenerated, they would not have had to wait to be made perfect. The spirits in heaven have been, past tense, made perfect, Hebrews 12:23.

And when these folks make claims about scripture, be sure to actually look at the scripture. For example does Galatians 3:6-8 say Christ's righteousness was imputed to Abraham? Nope. It says Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. He was not made righteous, his faith was.

Do not buy into arguments based on misreading scripture, or adding to scripture.

Van said:

Post #4 and 5 are nonsense. No verse or passage says or suggests Abraham was "regenerated" before Christ died. None. What scripture actually says is Abel, Abraham, and others gained approval through faith, Hebrews 11.

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No, what you are saying is complete nonsense, void of common sense. The sin problem is not a post-cross problem. The sin problem originated with Adam (Rom. 5:12) and man is spiritually separated from God, thus spiritually "dead" in tresspasses and sins just as the Ephesians were (Eph. 2:1,5). That condition is fully described in the Old and New Testaments as one and the same condition. It is a condition of enmity against God (Psa. 14:2-3; Rom. 3:9-12; 8:7) under the condemnation of God (Jn. 3:18) and moral inclination that loves darkness more than light (Jn. 3:19-20). It is being alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18) in a spiritual state of darkness (Deut. 5:29; 29:4; 2 Cor. 4:6). That is the essence of the unregenerate state before, during and after the cross. The only other alternative to an unregenerate state thus described is the regenerate state which is the opposite in condition (life, light, holinesss, love for light, etc.). THERE IS NO THIRD MIDDLE STATE except in the mind of misguided people.

Now, the spirit in Abraham described after his justification by faith was no longer an unregenerate spiritual condition. He was not at enmity with God. He was not a lover of darkness and a hater of light, he was not spiritual blind and deaf and he was no longer dead in tresspasses and sins. Neither when he died, was his spirit in that condition but it was in what the scripture define as the regenerate condition.

Van said:

If any of the OT Saints had been born anew, regenerated, they would not have had to wait to be made perfect. The spirits in heaven have been, past tense, made perfect, Hebrews 12:23.

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That is your absurd interpretative theory. I say it is absurd because it assumes that spiritually dead spirits, and that is precisely what they are if they were never regenerated because it is the spirit of man that is born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:6). God cannot justify spiritual dead people and neither can they be regarded as "saved" in that spiritual condition then, or now. Yet, that is precisely what you are teaching. You are teaching the absolute nonsense that spiritually dead people went to hades but were justified and saved yet in that condition. Hebrews 12:23 was their condition at the point of physical death and they went to heaven just as David clearly states in Psalm 73. Hebrews 11 clearly states that they will not be made perfect "without us" and they have never been with us before or after Calvary, then or even now, but only will be after the resurrection when we both will be made "perfect" together at once. Abraham did not find the fulfillment of this promise "on earth" because this is a sin cursed earth and won't find that promised fulfilled until he is on a NEW EARTH whereupon the New Jerusalem comes down and abides (Rev. 21:1-24).

Van said:

And when these folks make claims about scripture, be sure to actually look at the scripture. For example does Galatians 3:6-8 say Christ's righteousness was imputed to Abraham?

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And when you read another person's post you need to make sure you are quoting them correctly because I never said Galatians 3:8 taught the justification of Abraham but that it declared the gospel was preached by God to Abraham. So practice what you preach.

Van said:

INope. It says Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. He was not made righteous, his faith was.

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Your position is absolute nonsense! Jesus said BEFORE the cross that man comes into this world already "condemned" (Jn. 3:18). Therefore, if Abraham did not have the righteousness of Christ imputed to him he remained condemned because Paul plainly says that he was justified "without works" (Rom. 4:1-6) and without obedience to divine ordinances (4:9-12) and without obedience to the works of the Law of Moses (Rom. 4:13-15) and without faith being defined as faithfulness (Rom. 4:16-21). Hence, your position is nothing but self-contradictions.

Van said:

IDo not buy into arguments based on misreading scripture, or adding to scripture.

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Exactly why they should pay no attention to you total abuse of scripture.

There is no TIME TRAVEL THEOLOGY! The fall and its consequences are CONSTANT, then, at the cross and now - NO CHANGE. The solution is as CONSTANT because the only possible solution then is the only possible solution now as there is no salvation, no justification, no remission of sins, no aspect of God's eternal purpose of salvation that is not IN CHRIST then or now. Abraham is explicitly said to be "in Christ" by Paul in Galatians 3:17 and there is no explaining that statement away. The context makes it clear that Abraham knew that the promised "seed" ultimately referred to one, and that is Christ, and therefore God made this covenant with Abraham "in Christ" 430 years before the Mosaic law existed and therefore the law which came later cannot annul this earlier promise because it was not based upon law but "in Christ."

To claim there is some kind of salvation outside of Christ then or now is to deny Christ altogether because if salvation in any sense from the fall can be accomplished without Christ THEN it can be accomplished without Christ NOW.

God applied ALL the benefits of the cross NOT ON THE BASIS OF TIME but on the basis of PROMISE of an eternal purpose unfettered by time and when the TIME event occurred it justified God's application before the cross. God exists outside of time and sees everything in an eternal present - I AM - thus he does not see any pre versus post cross saints with regards to the cross but sees the cross as the lamb slain "FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" and he sees the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" the application of which does not depend upon events in time, but upon God's eternal purpose that encompasses time.

The very idea that God could claim as "justified" those who continue in an unregenerated condition, meaning at enmity with God, lovers of darkness and sin, children of disobedience is completely ludicrous and even more oxymoronic is the idea that such unregenerate spirits went down into sheol in safety along with other unregenerate spirits in torments is nothing but Roman Catholic purgatory revised and revisited by Baptists.

Van said:

Martin posted that my view of justification by the blood of Christ was "mad."

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Actually, I said your entire theology is mad, and it is; madder than a box of frogs in fact.

You bounce up and down on Matthew 23:13 like a trampoline, saying that unregenerate people enter the kingdom of heaven, despite John 3:3-5. You claim that the Scribes and Pharisees could 'block' people entering the kingdom despite having the meaning of aphiemi explained to you more than once. Not to 'suffer' or 'allow' something doesn't mean it's not going to happen. I don't know whether J.J. Cale has been quoted on the B.B. before, but here goes:

'Mama don't allow no guitar playing round here;
Mama don't allow no guitar paying round here.
We don't care what Mama don't allow-
Gonna play my guitar any old how.
Mama don't allow no guitar playing round here.'

The Lord Jesus Christ said, "I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." How much less are the scribes and Pharisees likely to prevail! If you want to see the Jewish authorities 'blocking' someone from entering the kingdom, read John 9 down to verse 38.

There's a load more nonsense that you post and you never take instruction from anyone but keep on churning out the same old 'twaddle.' It's back on ignore for you, I'm afraid.

What good does it do Martin, if while you have placed me on ignore, if you address me by name and disparage my views. Such behavior is as ridiculous as your box of frogs.

Did I say Matthew 23:13 says men entered the kingdom? Nope. So once again Martin, rather than addressing the actual issue, spins twaddle to and fro.

Next, do I claim or does Jesus say men blocked others who were entering. Just read Matthew 23:13 and accept that certain folks, deny scripture and ascribe its truths as the opinions of men.

Did anyone say the "sin problem" was a post-cross problem? Nope, so more misdirection, more twaddle.
Did anyone say the "sin problem" did not originate with Adam? Nope, so more misdirection.
Did anyone say those under the Old Covenant were not dead in their sins? Nope, more misdirection.

Next we get the bogus claim that "total spiritual inability" is valid once again. But Matthew 23:13 demonstrates the doctrine is unbiblical. Unregenerate people sometimes seek God effectively.

Again, no verse or passage says or suggests Abraham was "regenerated" before Christ died. None, zip, nada.

Am I teaching unregenerate people are saved? Nope, so more misdirection, more twaddle. The OT saints who gained approval through faith were certainly chosen to be saved when they "gained approval."

Are we, born anew under the New Covenant, waiting to be made perfect? Nope. If a person has been regenerated in Christ, born anew in Christ, made alive in Christ, made perfect in Christ, they are saved.

Does David state in Psalm 73 that believers (under the Old Covenant) when they physically die go straight to heaven? Nope, so more misdirection, more twaddle. John 3:13 clearly says no one, including David, ascended to Heaven before Christ died. Was David "received to glory" at some point? Yes. But he had to wait to be made perfect.

The nameless doctrine cannot be supported from scripture. OT saints gained approval through faith, but had to wait to be made perfect, to be washed by the blood of Christ until after Christ died.

Why is this such a big problem for the nameless doctrine advocates? If the OT saints trusted in God without being regenerated, their who house of cards collapses.

Martin Marprelate said:

Actually, I said your entire theology is mad, and it is; madder than a box of frogs in fact.

You bounce up and down on Matthew 23:13 like a trampoline, saying that unregenerate people enter the kingdom of heaven, despite John 3:3-5. You claim that the Scribes and Pharisees could 'block' people entering the kingdom despite having the meaning of aphiemi explained to you more than once. Not to 'suffer' or 'allow' something doesn't mean it's not going to happen. I don't know whether J.J. Cale has been quoted on the B.B. before, but here goes:

'Mama don't allow no guitar playing round here;
Mama don't allow no guitar paying round here.
We don't care what Mama don't allow-
Gonna play my guitar any old how.
Mama don't allow no guitar playing round here.'

The Lord Jesus Christ said, "I will build My church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it." How much less are the scribes and Pharisees likely to prevail! If you want to see the Jewish authorities 'blocking' someone from entering the kingdom, read John 9 down to verse 38.

There's a load more nonsense that you post and you never take instruction from anyone but keep on churning out the same old 'twaddle.' It's back on ignore for you, I'm afraid.

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box of frogs

Yet another off topic post, designed to add to the smoke screen of posts, hiding the truth about time travel theology. Rather than OT Saints coming to faith based on God's revelation, they claim they were somehow regenerated with promised blood. In Star Trek IV, they traveled back in time to bring extinct whales into the future to save the day. The nameless doctrine travels forward in time to bring Christ's blood back into the Old Testament to accomplish "regeneration." Its a mad, mad, made doctrine.

Returning to topic, James 2:21 is usually translated as "justified" or "declared righteous" but a few translations render Abraham's action "shown to be right" or considered righteous or received approval. Thus there is no compelling need to confuse God's message by translating two different meanings using the same word.

The Biblicist,

Van...whose ideas go boldly where no man has gone before offers this;
In Star Trek IV, they traveled back in time to bring extinct whales into the future to save the day.

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No, what you are saying is complete nonsense, void of common sense.

The only other alternative to an unregenerate state thus described is the regenerate state which is the opposite in condition (life, light, holinesss, love for light, etc.).

There IS NO THIRD MIDDLE STATE except in the mind of misguided people.


{That is your absurd interpretative theory. I say it is absurd because it assumes that spiritually dead spirits, and that is precisely what they are if they were never regenerated because it is the spirit of man that is born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:6). God cannot justify spiritual dead people and neither can they be regarded as "saved" in that spiritual condition then, or now. Yet, that is precisely what you are teaching.}

Yes indeed.....

You are teaching the absolute nonsense that spiritually dead people went to hades but were justified and saved yet in that condition.

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no understanding at all...



Hebrews 12:23 was their condition at the point of physical death and they went to heaven just as David clearly states in Psalm 73. Hebrews 11 clearly states that they will not be made perfect "without us" and they have never been with us before or after Calvary, then or even now, but only will be after the resurrection when we both will be made "perfect" together at once. Abraham did not find the fulfillment of this promise "on earth" because this is a sin cursed earth and won't find that promised fulfilled until he is on a NEW EARTH whereupon the New Jerusalem comes down and abides (Rev. 21:1-24).

Your position is absolute nonsense! . Hence, your position is nothing but self-contradictions.

Exactly why they should pay no attention to your total abuse of scripture.

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everyone sees it this way...

Yet a repeat of absurd nonsense, seeking to hide the truth. These misrepresentations are not innocent mistakes. But no matter how many frogs they release, how many puffs of smoke they blow, the result is the same. They cannot hide their mad, mad, man-made time travel doctrine.

They repeat the claim that people, dead in their sins, do not ever seek God. But Matthew 23:13 refutes that bogus claim. They ignore scripture and post falsehood.

Lets take this example of their absurdities, "God cannot justify spiritual dead people...." The truth from scripture, God is just and the justifier of the unjust, Romans 4:5.

Lets take another absurdity: "You are teaching the absolute nonsense that spiritually dead people went to Hades but were justified and saved yet in that condition." No, I am not. I am teaching spiritually dead people, who had gained approval through faith, went to "Abraham's bosom." (Luke16:19-31). They did not go to heaven (John 3:13) and had to wait to be made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40. They had been chosen to be saved, based on gaining approval through faith, but had not yet been washed with the washing of regeneration.

Pay no attention to those who post misrepresentations of opponents, rather than address the actual differences of theology.

One more example of the nameless doctrine's time travel theology: We are saved then given faith. No we are saved through faith, which means our faith preceded our salvation. (Ephesians 2:8). If you enter a room through a door, you go through the door first, rather than entering through the wall and then going out the door. Just another example of the mad, mad, man-made nameless doctrine.