1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured In Heb. 4, the Sabbath points to rest,

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 24, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 2 of 6
  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The Sabbath is NOT ~Saturday~. ~Saturday~ is NOT the day which is the sign of the covenant which God made between Himself and Israel and their generations forever. ~Saturday~ does not typify redemption. ~Saturday~ is NOT part of that Law which we cannot keep. ~Saturday~ condemns just like ~Sunday~.
     
    #21 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    No comment ... DHK ... "~It cannot be shown that (the Sabbath) is "the Lords Day," You have no evidence. ...~"

    DHK ... "~--Christ is Lord of the Sabbath as He is Lord of all things. ... The Sabbath is not made "for man," that is that man should be a slave to it ...~"

    "~But rather for ... "the LORD'S enjoyment / revival / delight / honouring or rest." Exodus 31:17 Isaiah 58:13.

    Note verse 13 is as good as verse 14 so to speak. In other words, "If you enjoy the Sabbath / rejuvenate on the Sabbath / delight in the Sabbath / honour the Sabbath an rest", verse 14 declares, "Then shalt Thou (the Lord Jesus Christ) delight Thyself IN THE LORD!"

    And no different for the People of the LORD.
     
    #22 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Impossible for 1900 years after and for 500 years BC "in the end of" / "late on"-- 'opse', suddenly in the latter halve of the 20th century has become ~easily translated "after"~.

    Dis bietjie dik vir 'n daalder.

    Also, there is no ~Sabbath passed~ in Matthew 28:1. ~Sabbath passed~ requires the Accusative and or an additional Verbal word like in Mark 16:1, 'diagenomenou tou sabbatou'.
    Matthew 28:1 has neither.

    Neither is there ~it began to be light~. On the contrary, it says, "in the very mid-afternoon daylight declining". 'tehi' : 'epi' + 'phohs' + '(k)ousehi'.

    There is no ~on the first day of the week~. On the contrary Matthew 28:1 reads, "towards" / "unto" / "before" / "in the direction to" [eis] the First Day of the week" --Accusative, 'Mian (hehmeran)'.

    "~easily translated "After the Sabbath passed and it began to be light on the first day of the week"~"??
    Never in your life!!
     
    #23 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Gerhard Ebersoehn said: ↑
    Re: “… on the first day of the week”. Quote please.

    WHAT “… on the first day of the week”? Quote please.
     
    #24 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Again, WHAT 'prohї'?

    By the way, If Mark 16:9 is deduced from John 20:11-17, which it is, then 'prohї' will be time of morning when the 'gardener' should be expected to start work, which was sunrise. But what happened then, is what is important here.
     
    #25 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    "This _is_ the Day the LORD _hath made_ which we will rejoice and be glad in", verse 24.


    Yes, this was "The Day the LORD hath made" from eternity in the Council of the Almighty for eternity to come through the Promised One of Yahweh even Jesus Christ our Lord.


    This "Day" is prophetic of Christ whom "we will rejoice and be glad in"; not of an earthly day of the week, although we may also apply the principle of it to the Sabbath of the LORD, the Seventh Day, which we also, may rejoice and be glad in, because that will be to and at the LORD'S own, command.


    And yes, for sure this day in Psalm 118 that would yet in the future be "made", would be and in fact was "made" the Resurrection Day of Jesus Christ, a historical fact of truth ---of redeeming salvation-truth!


    Only question remaining for any who has not found the answer in the Scriptures already, is, which day of the week may be relevant, the Sabbath, or the First Day of the week?


    But the little word ‘or’, already shows that a ‘question’ like this, would be artful bigotry. Because NOWHERE EVER has the First Day found reference to or relevancy with regard to “God’s Power when He raised Christ from the dead BY THE EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF HIS STRENGTH”—which God reached at “REST-point in the Seventh Day of God’s energising”, and “finishing”, and “blessing”, and “hallowing, the day The Seventh Day…Sabbath of the LORD GOD.”


    ONLY the Lord’s Sabbath Day could be “made” the Day when God raised Christ from the dead because only “on the day The Seventh Day God finished all his works He had made and RESTED.”
     
    #26 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Gerhard Ebersoehn said: ↑
    Re: “~It is the day set apart for public worship (1 Cor. 16:1-2; Acts 20:7)~” Non-sense I’m afraid.

    Please be specific; perhaps then, we might be able to discuss these two verses. So far you have paid no attention to the text, but only have made baseless insinuations about me. Which makes no sense, doesn't it?
     
    #27 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 29, 2016
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    That is true for Paul called the law holy, and good. And yet the law could not justify. Look again:
    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --First, just being under the law is being cursed. "As many as are of the works of the law are cursed."
    One doesn't have to commit anything, but simply be under the law to be cursed. Why? It is impossible to keep the law.
    --Second, Paul shows the futility in keeping the law.
    "Cursed is every one that continues not in ALL things that are written in the book of the law to do them."
    Examine this statement.
    It tells me that from birth to death I must keep every command written in the law every day of my life--not breaking one command ever! If I break one law during my lifetime, one lie, one sin, I am cursed. But the reality is that I sin, not once is a lifetime, but many times, and many times every day!! My life is full of sin, but praise God, He has put that sin under the blood of Christ.

    I was quoting from Gal.3:10-13.

    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    I don't see that verse there? Do you? How then did I leave it out?

    That is not what Heb.1:1,2 says. To change God's Word like that is to bring condemnation upon oneself.
     
    #28 DHK, Jul 29, 2016
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    The passage says nothing about keeping the Sabbath day--not one word.
    I stand by my statement. Your conclusion was your opinion and your conjecture and nothing more.
     
    #29 DHK, Jul 29, 2016
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    God rested on the seventh day. The Bible specifically states that.
    In our language the seventh day is Saturday.
    The Jews keep the Sabbath on Saturday. You simply are playing a game of semantics.
     
    #30 DHK, Jul 29, 2016
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    First, the Lord's day is not the Sabbath. You have no evidence of that. Let me quote to you what Vernon McGee says on Isaiah 58:13 (which really has nothing to do with Revelation 1.)

    Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

    God gave the Sabbath to the nation Israel. God said, "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever …" (Exo_31:17). For something interesting, read the entire passage of Exo_31:12-18. Now God turns to this specific thing that He commanded them as a people.
    For us today it is a little different. We are told: "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it" (Heb_4:1). The word for "rest" is sabbath—we should not come short of entering into His rest. "For he that is entered into his rest [that is, the sabbath], he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his" (Heb_4:10). Now have you entered into His sabbath, which is the rest of redemption? Have you come to the place where you completely, fully trust Christ—that He has done everything necessary for your salvation and you are resting in His finished work? Or do you feel compelled to do something in order to earn or not lose your salvation? My friend, He wants us to fully trust Christ. To enter into His rest will mean not only great blessing for us, but it will open up an avenue of service for us. The thing that brought the apostle Paul to a life of missionary activity was to enter into the rest of redemption    .

    Concerning verse 14 he says:
    Isaiah 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    The horizon here is extended, and the vista of the future opens before us. They may delay the approaching glory, but they cannot destroy God's plan for the coming manifestation of His glory.
    --This has nothing to do with the Sabbath day, but rather Israel future restoration, the Kingdom to come.

    Greek scholar A.T. Robertson says about Revelation 1:10
    I was in the Spirit (egenomēn en pneumati). Rather, “I came to be (as in Rev_1:9) in the Spirit,” came into an ecstatic condition as in Act_10:10.; Act_22:17, not the normal spiritual condition (einai en pneumati, Rom_8:9).
    On the Lord’s Day (en tēi kuriakēi hēmerāi). Deissmann has proven (Bible Studies, p. 217f.; Light, etc., p. 357ff.) from inscriptions and papyri that the word kuriakos was in common use for the sense “imperial” as imperial finance and imperial treasury and from papyri and ostraca that hēmera Sebastē (Augustus Day) was the first day of each month, Emperor’s Day on which money payments were made (cf. 1Co_16:1.). It was easy, therefore, for the Christians to take this term, already in use, and apply it to the first day of the week in honour of the Lord Jesus Christ’s resurrection on that day (Didache 14, Ignatius Magn. 9). In the N.T. the word occurs only here and 1Co_11:20 (kuriakon deipnon the Lord's Supper). It has no reference to hēmera kuriou (the day of judgment, 2Pe_3:10).

    It has nothing to do with the Sabbath. Again you have no evidence but your own speculation.
     
    #31 DHK, Jul 29, 2016
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I don't need to quote it as you can read the Greek text as well as I can. The Greek term used is proii.
     
    #32 The Biblicist, Jul 29, 2016
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    And you think your one word response "nonsense" was anything other than a baseless response???
     
    #33 The Biblicist, Jul 29, 2016
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    "Now when Jesus was risen early [proee - fourth watch] the first day of the week,"
     
    #34 The Biblicist, Jul 29, 2016
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    You are simply wrong! It can be translated that way and there is plenty of lexicographical evidence that it can. It is derived from opis which Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich (A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature gives the following meanings by usage:

    a."behind"
    b. "after"
    c. "the time after"

    Thayer directly commenting on Matthew 28:1 says as one of the meanings of opse is "after the Sabbath, i.e., at the early dawn of the first day of the week - (an interpretation absolutely demanded by the added specification te epiphosk. ktl)"

    The Expositors Greek New Testament says it can be understood to mean simply that the Sabbath day ended at sunset and the women came at the dawning of light on the first day of the week. Thus consistent with Mark 16:9 and "proee".

    MacArthur explains it as "The Jewish Sabbath officially ended with sundown on Saturday. At this time, the women could purchase and prepare spices (Luke 24:1). The event described here occurs the next morning, at dawn on Sunday, the first day of the week" - John MacArthur, The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

    The language can simply mean, the Sabbath had passed. This gave the women opportunity and the legal freedom from the Law to purchase and prepare their spices which they then came "early" (proee - fourth watch) the next morning.
     
    #35 The Biblicist, Jul 29, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    Dear Biblicist, please tell us, first, the dates of the first editions of these ~lexicographical Lexicons~ or ~evidence~, and next, the dates of the editions you refer to here.



    The Greek does not say or imply or suggest, 1) ~that the Sabbath day ended at sunset~~; that ~day ended~; that ~day ended at sunset~. It just, does not, have it written. One can do with nothing whatever one liked, Kx0=0.


    The Greek does not necessarily say or imply or suggest, 2) ~that … the women came at~ the grave or ‘upon’ [epi] the grave like in Mark 16:2 for instance. On the contrary the Greek unequivocally states the two Marys “set out TO GO SEE the grave” [ehlthen theohrehsai ton taphon]. The other Gospels do not say it. Matthew very clearly does not refer to anything the other Gospels write about. Matthew used even another source than any of the other Gospel writers. His vocabulary is different in EVERY word or reference to personae or place or whatever particularity or generality. It is an evident Sunday-myth that the four Gospels all write about Jesus’ Resurrection.



    Completely incomprehensible and therefore completely unanswerable off-pitch warbling…



    So is your attempt to ‘explain’ MacArthur.


    In fact, you gave NO ~lexicographical evidence that it (Matthew 28:1) can~ mean “after the Sabbath”—n-o-n-e, sir.



    Give me those dates, please, and then I’ll answer you further on this.
     
    #36 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 31, 2016
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian

    ~opse is "after the Sabbath, i.e., at the early dawn of the first day of the week - (an interpretation absolutely demanded by the added specification te epiphosk. ktl)"~


    By which rule of Grammar or Syntax or Idiom? By none whatsoever!


    ‘opse de Sabbatohn’

    “Late on / In the end of the Sabbath”, Genitive of quality, “in Sabbath’s-time / ripeness / fullness of the Sabbath”—not of the First Day of the week;

    Ópse de sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi, “Late on the Sabbath” = “on the Sabbath in the mid-afternoon of the Sabbath” = “on Sabbath’s mid-afternoon” = “in the mid-declining daylight of the Sabbath” =


    = “late on the Sabbath’s mid-afternoon = Sabbath = as it on the Sabbath before the First Day of the week = on the Sabbath in Sabbath’s-time began to dawn towards the First Day = in the end of the Sabbath when suddenly there occurred a great earthquake = and SABBATH'S, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary set out to go have a look at the grave”.


    Now that is what Thayer should have said, is THE ~interpretation absolutely demanded by ‘opse de Sabbatohn’ plus ~the added specification te epiphosk. ktl)"~!
     
    #37 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 31, 2016
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Let me make myself clear, The Greek does not say in so many words ~that the Sabbath day ended at sunset~, although it does imply or suggest it, meaning the Greek CONFIRMS ~that the Sabbath Day ended at sunset~ and that the events, the earthquake that occurred, and that the Marys set out to go see the tomb, and that the angel descended and cast the stone away, OCCURRED BEFORE ~that the Sabbath Day ended at sunset~; in other words, occurred "ON the Sabbath", "IN SABBATH'S-time BEFORE, the First Day of the week".
     
    #38 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 31, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    By which rule of Grammar or Syntax or Idiom does Matthew 28:1 demand, exclusively, that ‘opse de Sabbatohn’ says and means “Late on / In the end of the Sabbath”, “in Sabbath’s-time / ripeness / fullness of the Sabbath”—not of the First Day of the week?

    By every rule in the book!
    1) Of Greek Grammar, for example
    the Genitive "of the Sabbath" [sabbatohn] and
    the Dative "in being the daylight inclining" [tehi epiphohskousehi] and
    the Accusative "unto / towards / before / against the First Day" [Mian sabbatohn]

    2) Of Greek Syntax, for example the use of
    Articles "in the daylight" [tehi],
    Prepositions, "unto / towards / against / before" [eis]
    Adverbs, "Late / in the end / fullness / ripeness" [opse]

    3) Idiom, for example
    Infinitive of Intention, "to go see" [theohrehsai]
    Etymological Nomenclature, 'Sabbatohn' for "the Sabbath" and 'Mian sabbatohn' for "First Day-of-the-week"
    Metaphoric figure-of-speech 'epiphohskousehi' for "mid-afternoon" [epiphohskousehi]
    Interjections, "then just when occurred" [kai idou]
     
    #39 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 31, 2016
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    9,025
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Gerhard Ebersoehn said: ↑
    Gerhard Ebersoehn said: ↑
    Re: “… on the first day of the week”. Quote please.
    WHAT “… on the first day of the week”? Quote please.

    Exactly! WHAT “… on the first day of the week”? ... quote, "Jesus was risen" --- not, 'was raised'; not, 'rose'; not, 'was rising', but, "was ris-en" viz., "was, rais-ed".
    More exactly, grammatically "He (Jesus) AS THE RISEN / AS THE RISEN ONE"--'anastas' Aorist Adjectival PARTICIPLE telling what Jesus was like, when "He appeared to Mary first", "risen, He appeared".

    Jesus did not rise from the dead "early on the First Day"; "He having been raised from the dead, alive The Risen One, early on the First Day of the week appeared to May M first."
     
    #40 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 31, 2016
Page 2 of 6
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...