Holding Hands

Brice, good job!

But since we have to know the other person's heart in order to be able to determine that they are setting their personal standard in order to "gain God's approval" accusing anyone of it in here is basically just inflammatory and gets us nowhere.

And actually Pharisaism is when you stand and point your finger at others and compare YOUR standards with theirs, declaring yourself more holy than them because of your own stances. Thus, Pharisaism can go either way.....it can be a person looking down on someone else because they have STRICTER standards than that other, or because they have LOOSER standards than that other person.
It is the comparing oneself to others and then considering yourself better because of it.
Pharisaism is NOT deciding that some specific THINGS are right or wrong.

I like what C4K said, very good example. It kind of puts it into perspective.

Very cute picture, Tennis.

 

We know that marriage is not a sin. What did Paul say of those who marry? They do well. But what did he say of those who are able to remain celibate for the sake of the Kingdom? They do better, 1 Cor. 7:38.

In the same way, if you want to assert that young people are doing God's will to hold hands and kiss and hug and cuddle and neck and so forth, prior to marriage, that's fine. Tell them they are doing well.

But those who abstain are doing better. As Paul said, It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

 

My mother was very strict, but she never told me I couldn't hold hands with my boyfriend.

 

Clean1--I applaud your high standards, and YES, they are doable! I don't think you can get into trouble with your convictions, but you can if you relax them. Not that you WILL get into trouble if you relax your standards, but it's more possible than if you don't.

I have several friends whose first kiss was at the altar--this was back in the late 1970's. My husband of 23 years and I did kiss, but we had some boundries! It doesn't have to be all or nothing. We did not kiss in the car. We kissed when he dropped me off at the door of my parents house after our dates. That way we could not get into trouble! It's hard to get "carried away" when your father is on the other side of the door! So, if you change you mind, or for the other teens reading this thread, set up some guidelines for yourself and your fiancee. Don't leave things open to chance and temptation. But I hope you don't change your mind. Some godly boy is making a vow that he will be a "Clean1" as well, and he is waiting for you! And I know God will bring you together.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "being old enough to start feeling emotions," but certainly you aren't suggesting that Children can't be enticed sexually and at very young ages.

I'm certainly not going by my own experiences.

Yes, you are. When you say you've "never had thrills run through your body over hand holding," you're appealing to personal experience.

I was abused and wow...certainly not pure by any means both because of that and later of my own volition as a radically unsaved person.

Not sure why you'd even bring this up. Anything can be polluted and abused. That's not what we're talking about.

I'm certainly not advocating sexual activity in unmarried people.

Who is? The question is whether it's better to abstain from other kinds of physical contact prior to marriage.

I am asserting that holding hands can be, and is, a perfectly normal part of a pure relationship.

I'm asserting that those who abstain (we're talking about a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship) do better than those who don't. And I have Scripture. 1 Cor. 7:1.

Of course there are some emotions involved. What is wrong with that? Boys are boys and girls are girls, there's emotions involved in just that fact.

If lusts did not war in their members, there would be no danger. I'm afraid that's the reality no matter how much as we'd like to think otherwise.

Aaron or anyone else, if you can't hold hands with someone and control your hormones at the same time, simply don't. I still assert that for the average person, this isn't an issue, and that some emotion is perfectly normal and natural and ok and a part of growing up.

Be honest now. Hormone control isn't the real issue is it. The issue is a very real condition the Bible calls lusts, which war in our members. And the fact of the matter is that it's the extraordinary individual to whom this isn't an issue. And honestly, the real reason a boy wants to hold his girlfriend's hand is because it's exciting—at first. In other words, it has awakened and aroused desires in him that were best left alone until the proper time. They can't be rightously fulfilled outside the bond of marriage.

Besides, we're plainly told that our bodies are not our own. They belong to Christ, and He has given power over our bodies to the ones we marry—and this isn't just about the sexual organs. The whole body. I can find in the Scriptures where I'm to yield my body to my spouse, but no where do I find that I'm allowed to yield my body, whether in whole or in part, to my date.

You can talk about how natural and beautiful it is all you want. You have less Scripture to justify your position than I do.

Appeals to scripture:
1. do not be a stumbling block to your children.
Are you being a stumbling block by being overly harsh and burdening them with rules you can't find in the scriptures?

2. Raise your child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord...do not add or take from the scriptures.

See comments under number one.

3. Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it.

Did you train your child up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, so that you feel assured that under proper supervision and influence, your child will not be driven to impurity by every day common acts of friendliness and affection?

"Driven to impurity by every day common acts of friendliness and affection?" What? We're talking about boyfriend/girlfriend relationships and how they're to yield their bodies to one another.

Besides, the Scripture don't say "Don't be a stumbling block to your children." They say do not provoke your children to wrath. That doesn't mean your children will never get angry because of your rules, and parents don't have to justify their rules. Just the fact they feel their rules are in the best interest of their children is all that's required, and children are commanded to obey their parents in all things.

And the promise is that it will be well with them and they'll live long on the earth.

The provocation comes in with inconsistent and harsh discipline. Not in the standards that parents choose.

4. ....not in passionate lust like the heathen...

Give the kids some credit and allow them to grow and mature as God intended them too. Don't assume they're all out of control heathens.

Flee youthful lusts.

Foolishness in bound in the heart of a child.

I'm not harsh with my children, but what do you mean "give them credit?" I shouldn't think they're sinners at heart? That there are no lusts warring in their members? That the universal, non-optional truths of the Scriptures don't apply? No thanks, that's a recipe for disaster.

BTW one of the closest times in my old church was when everyone held hands and prayed together. You held hands with whoever you were sitting next too. No out of control emotions, simply a feeling of safety and comfort and unity as we joined together as Christians and prayed to our God.

Well sure. Not if the 15-year-old boy was holding hands with his grandma, but if he happened to be sitting next to that little hottie...

Was there any degree of sensuality in that?

I don't know. I wasn't there. I know what Paul said is good, however.

I'd certainly hope that a couple who is pondering marriage can hold hands and pray together, or just hold hands and be able to say hey, we're an item! It seems rotten to take that away from someone on the grounds that it would lead to illicit behaviors.

We'd all like that, but I know what Paul said is good, and why.

Aaron, I'm not really into arguing such an irrelevent topic. I sincerely feel it's not worth it! There's differences of opinion on this, to be sure.

Could have fooled me.

I hope the teens here can see that not all issues are black and white. Decisions have to be made based on scripture, personal conviction, and the advice of your parents and those teaching you at church. That may or may not conflict with what I say, or with what Aaron says, or anyone else.

I hope the will understand that God will bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14. No gray areas with God, our lack of discernment notwithstanding.

But...I do beg of you to not let such trivial matters bias your opinion toward other Christian friends of yours if their opinion on such matters disagrees with yours. What you all have in common is your love of Christ and your desire to do the right thing and stay pure, so focus on that together despite minor differences in approach.

The Scriptures bias my opinion concerning all men, whether they be Christian or not. I don't have to think that youth are behaving themselves to love them. I don't have to think they're good or wise or even remotely so. I pretty much assume that men have the law of sin in their members and will give in to sin one way or another multiple times everyday.

I'll leave with a devotion by Elisabeth Elliot:

http://www.backtothebible.org/gateway/today/17550

 

I know I'm pretty late to the party here, but I have a couple of questions.

Ok, so what if he/she is a bad kisser or has bad breath? Are these valid reasons for splitting up? If you never kissed him before marriage and find out on your wedding night that he's a bad kisser, or has bad breath, is the marriage over before it starts?

Determining whether your prospective spouse is a good or bad kisser is not a valid reason for kissing or not kissing before marriage.

 

ok, then what if he/she has an open wound in their mouth. what a great surprise for the wedding night.


Cindy

 

Why not suggest even more intimacy in case there is a problem someplace else?

If they still have an open wound after months of dating there is a serious problem. I would hope that ANYONE with an open wound ANYWHERE would get it treated.

The kind of kisser someone is is hardly grounds for deciding on a future mate. He may be a good kisser and an abuser.

 

I cannot suggest even more intimacy in my case, because that is/was not an option for me.


Cindy

 

It's only pharaseeism if a person makes his/her own conviction a matter of scriptural absolute for everyone. I, too, applaud the OP for her conviction, but cannot condone any attempt to apply personal conviction to all people in such manner. If I did that, I'd likewise be guilty of pharaseeism. We can't justify the ends just because the means sound good.

 

It is the logic that you suggest Cindy. If we need to check out the inside of each other's mouths before marriage maybe we should check out other aspects as well, "just in case."

Maybe we should just require a full medical statement, that would be even safer.

 

I agree!!!! If we are not to touch each other before marriage, I would feel comfortable with a clean bill of health from a Medical Dr.

Cindy

 

None of us qualify as medical prefessionals and should not be "playing doctor" in any regard before marriage. DO you really think that touching each other is a good substitute for a doctor?

You logic of open wounds as an excuse for kissing doesn't work. It makes it sound like you would support open mouth kissing while dating.

 

if someone had an open wound in their mouth and I knew about it....I wouldn't kiss them period. Closed or open mouth.

Cindy

 

Of course, but your original post on this topic made it sound like this was a good reason for kissing before marriage. If someone has an open wound long enough to kow about it before marriage and it continues on long enough to be surprised on your wedding night that person is well on their wayo t death!

Do you suggest daily open mouth kissing for weeks up until the wedding to make sure that things are "okay" for the wedding night? That way you could call off the wedding at the last minute if your fiancee develops a mouth ulcer.

You have made a few decent points on this topic, sorry, but this is not one of tehm.

 

This may well have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but if so, perhaps it bears repeating. If a couple has not kissed anyone before their spouse, how will they know the difference between a "good or bad kisser"? It won't matter, and however their kissing is will seem terrific!

 

ok I think this has gotten a little out of hand....open wounds....bad breath...???

 

I agree, those reasons are skewed from the start.

 

I agree with thankful, Gina. Great Post.
Faithgirl46