Salvation- Something Outside of God that God must Fulfill?

JonC δοῦλος said:

I picked up an article (by Patrick Oden, Fuller Seminary) exploring the Atonement through the relational motif of re-establishment of trust. I admit that as I read I did not remain as attentive as I initially purposed (no fault of the author), and what caught my interest was towards the conclusion. Oden made the comment that understanding God’s intent in salvation to be itself relational may change how we interpret issues such as sin, judgment, and wrath, thus also salvation and sanctification. “Rather than seeing salvation in terms of honor or law, for which a price must be paid upon violation, in a related approach, there is not something outside of God that God must fulfill.”

When we view salvation in terms of the law (or a law) for which a price must be paid upon violation, are we looking at God’s plan of redemption as something outside of God that God must fulfill? At this time, my answer is that this law (or standard) is not “outside of God” but rather reflective of His character/nature (our Sin runs deeper than transgressing a law). But I also know that several disagree with me and hold sin as transgressing the Law (God's command) which would be external to God.

I know there are various views here regarding the nature of the Atonement (or Reconciliation), and there are various views of sin. Do you believe that Oden is correct, that seeing salvation in terms of a law for which a price must be paid upon violation presents something outside of God that He must fulfill?



(Oden, Patrick. 2015. "“Obedience is better than sacrifice״: atonement as the re-establishment of trust." Wesleyan Theological Journal 50, no. 1)

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Salvation in the biblical sense is God Himself retorimg to us what was lost when Adam sinned against God, and there is both an individual salvation between sinners and God, and between all of creation and God to be done when Jesus returns..

What is he pointing towards here?

Yeshua1 said:

Salvation in the biblical sense is God Himself retorimg to us what was lost when Adam sinned against God, and there is both an individual salvation between sinners and God, and between all of creation and God to be done when Jesus returns..

What is he pointing towards here?

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I disagree. I believe salvation is an upgrade of the created Adam of Gen 1:27 & 2:7. I believe Adam was created with the need to become a new creation, in the image of the resurrected Son of God, who would come into the world being born of woman, in the image of the originally created Adam, in order to inherit the kingdom of God. The world to come.

Before the new creation could be, the old creation had to be redeemed from, the death, brought fourth by the sin of the original Adam.

Someone sinless had to be made sin and die, before there could be a new creation.

JonC δοῦλος said:

Yes, there are always issues when we analyze illustrations. But I think it a good one here as the law looks to God, God does not look to the law. I have been addressing the comment that Dr. Oden – “seeing salvation in terms of honor or law, for which a price must be paid upon violation, in a related approach, there is not something outside of God that God must fulfill".

My position is that God is not, in the traditionally Reformed positions, paying a price that stems from something outside of himself. Of course God does not exist outside of who He is. But God is/was God apart from that revelation to man. God DOES exist apart from his commandments (here, we’ve been talking about the law, or “moral standard”). God did not need man to make him complete. The law looks to God - God does not look to the law.

My answer was that it is wrong to see salvation in terms of law, for which a price must be paid upon violation, as if that law was something outside of God. Men are condemned for rejecting God. This is revealed in our disobedience (if we love Him, we would keep His commands).

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As I understand the word, if God had not said," thou shalt not eat of it," there would not have been any transgression. The spiritual law, "thou shalt not eat of it," gave power/strength to to, sin 1 Cor 15:56 therefore, the man of the flesh, the carnal man was tempted when he was drawn away of the lust of the flesh into sin which brought fourth the death. He being of the flesh was sold under sin.

He was sold in order that he could be redeemed and through that redemption, the works of the devil could be destroyed by the manifested Son of God, manifested in the likeness of sinful flesh yet without sin, through death and being resurrected from the dead.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (sold under sin)
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 John 3:5,8 Heb 2:14,15 1 Cor 15:17

percho said:

I disagree. I believe salvation is an upgrade of the created Adam of Gen 1:27 & 2:7. I believe Adam was created with the need to become a new creation, in the image of the resurrected Son of God, who would come into the world being born of woman, in the image of the originally created Adam, in order to inherit the kingdom of God. The world to come.

Before the new creation could be, the old creation had to be redeemed from, the death, brought fourth by the sin of the original Adam.

Someone sinless had to be made sin and die, before there could be a new creation.

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Adam was in [erfect harmony/fellowship with God before the Fall, and now so are we who are in Christ... And Adam i am sure had abilities before the fall that we would marvel at today...

Yeshua1 said:

Adam was in [erfect harmony/fellowship with God before the Fall, and now so are we who are in Christ... And Adam i am sure had abilities before the fall that we would marvel at today...

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And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden;
and there he (God) put the man whom he had formed. Gen 2:8

A special place on the earth that God put the man.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; = Food for the physical man. beginning of John 6 Jesus fed the 5000
the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, = food for the soul -- compare: Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. John 6:32 Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. The tree of life. The Word made flesh. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. -------------------Who does it equal unto? Who did they listen to? What was that tree doing in the garden God had planted eastward in Eden? What was > And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Rev 12:9, doing in the garden God planted eastward in Eden and where God put to man?

Was it to test the man who was in perfect harmony with him, God? Or is this the correct answer?

RSV Rom 8:20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope;

The hope there is redemption, specifically the redemption of the body V's 23-25. The man created in the image of God, in perfect harmony with God wasn't going to cut the mustard because he was created of the flesh with inherent lust of the flesh and put in the presence of that old serpent. The man did not subject himself to this futility. He was subjected to futility for the purpose of hope and for the purpose of the Son of God being manifested in the likeness of sinful flesh yet without sin, as the Son of Man, to destroy the works of the devil. Romans 5:14 8:3 Heb 4:15 & 1 John 3:8

That hope was foreordained before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-20 That hope, the Christ was going to come into the world through the woman taken from the man created in the image of his creator. A virgin, woman.

Here is a thought. Would the woman taken from the man, Adam, have qualified?

When was she disqualified?

HBSC Eph 1:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins