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Featured The Absolute Decree of Reprobation Expounded

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, May 21, 2016.

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  1. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You know when someone says "FOOTBALL"...... I don't know if they are talking about the NFL or Soccer.

    What you would call "Sacraments". I totally agree we don't need. If you think the root of a sacrament is the ritual or tradition trying to branch out to God's grace.

    What I call Sacraments IS God's Mercy and Grace. When you receive God's mercy I don't care how or why you got it.......IT is a SACRAMENT.

    When Jesus was baptized, did he walk up and say....well this is something stupid and useless.......I guess I better get baptized?


    Jesus showed up and said HAVE faith and TRUST me and you will know how to drive a truck.

    He shows up again says ok turn the key, pull this lever on drive, ok put the foot on the gas.

    He shows up again says obey traffic lights and signs, drive carefully.


    He gives you 3 chapters packed with instructions and advice on how to drive.

    And you come up to me and say NOOO.... stop turning the key! stepping on the gas won't let you drive! all you have to do is have faith and trust Jesus!:Tongue
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I don't want to get into an endless argument. My point is that election is to salvation which presupposes condemnation already prior to election or there is no need for election TO salvation as there would be no one in need of salvation. Second election is based upon mercy rather than justice which again, mercy, presupposes condemnation or else there is no need for mercy.

    Hence, there is no need for any decree of reprobation since election logically occurs after JUST CONDEMNATION as an act of mercy.

    Thus based upon universal condemnation of all mankind, God is JUST to freely exercise either condemnation to hell or election to salvation according to the good pleasure of his own will BECAUSE according to justice NONE deserve anything but condemnation - hence no need for any decree for reprobation, just the free exercise of God's purpose of election OF SOME condemned to salvation while in pure justice allowing the remainder which are already condemned to serve that sentence.

    As far as the grounds for universal condemnation of all mankind without exception, that is found in the decree to create them with free will with full accountability for its improper use in Adam. That is clearly seen in Genesis 3.

    So yes, both Jacob and Esau EQUALLY were condemned in Adam, and so neither their after birthed good or evil works determine their end. Esau is left in just condemnation, whereas Jacob who is just as equally condemned in Adam is elected to salvation according to God purpose of grace.
     
  3. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Again, there is no disagreement over the fact that both Jacob and Esau are equally guilty in Adam.

    The point in contention is whether or not God had no choice whether to reprobate both of them, none of them, or one of them.

    That choice to reprobate Esau was due to God’s eternal purpose to glorify His justice.

    Had it pleased God, He could have reprobated Jacob and elected Esau, because as Paul clearly explains, there was no discernible difference between them.

    The fact that He chose one and rejected the other was based on reasons known only to God, based on the counsel of His own will.

    Election is, indeed, to salvation, the means being supplied by the grace of God.

    Reprobation is to damnation, the gracious means to salvation being justly denied.

    The decision to elect or to reprobate result in eternal decrees, which manifest His infinite wisdom, holiness and righteousness.

    Decrees represent the infallible purposes of God which will certainly come to pass.

    Included in the decree to elect are the predestined means to the end.

    Their good works and rewards were also decreed in eternity.

    Likewise, included in the decree to reprobate are the predestined sins by which the reprobate will voluntarily and spontaneously commit ever so willingly.

    Thus, God has not only, in the decree to reprobate, determined the depth and breadth of the sins, but the degree of eternal punishment due them.

    For example, an unbelieving Pharisee who died prior to the ministry of Christ will not be judged nearly as harshly as the Pharisee who called for Christ’s execution.

    Here we see a choice as to which particular person would be born when.

    Both are Pharisees, yet the severity of their judgments is significantly different, depending on the timing of their birth and death.

    These are just a few of the decisions which are part of God’s secret will to reprobate.

    Yes, all men are equally guilty,

    But not all men are equally punished or rewarded.

    The cause of the distinctions lies in the hidden counsel of God’s good pleasure.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    [​IMG]

    You "Elect" Nazis can't tell who else is Elect eh?


    We Christians got no problem pointing out other Christians.

    1 john 3
    10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.




    Hated Esau is a figure of speech. Jacob being favored.

    But let me entertain the idea God actually hate Esau in particular that God has decided to "reprobate" Esau.

    Other words the problem is.............. UNCONDITIONAL HATE

    This makes no sense if we are ALL totally depraved.
    There is an automatic equality of evil because separate from God there is no good or capacity for good.


    Hebrews 12

    14Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.


    Why would I have to warn my elect brothers and sisters not to be like Esau? How did Esau sell his birthright unless it WAS his?
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are missing the point! God did not need to choose to damn anyone as that choice was made by man which justly damned the whole human race. The only choice God needed to make was to choose to save all or some of the damned and since the whole race was already justly condemned, God could do what he pleased without violating justice.

    In Adam both Esau and Jacob were equally condemned and therefore Gods purpose of grace according to election is not based upon anything either could or would do in their own individual post-birthed lives. God non-election of Esau did not violate justice and God's election of Jacob was pure undeserved mercy.

    In scripture "election" is always unto salvation and never unto damnation because there is no need to elect anyone to damnation since all are "condemned already" in Adam and when coming into this world.

    Election "to salvation" presupposes damnation already has occurred. "Mercy" presupposes a just condemnation has already occurred.
     
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    There had to be some desire for sin because it was God Himself who planted the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. If not, no need to plant it. God, knowing beforehand, planted it there, gave the command to not eat lest they die. When they rebelled, they paid the utmost penalty. Yet, God gave them a coat of skins, a blood sacrifice, and they drove them out. Now, none of us knows why God placed it there, imo.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Some Final Thoughts on Reprobation

    Part 4

    Until the time in which God’s eternal decree to elect a certain specific sinner takes effect, that particular chosen sinner is no different than the sinner who will never experience the saving grace of God.

    Both are under the wrath of God (John 3:36), guilty in Adam (Romans 5:12), enemies of God (Romans 5:10) and impotent to do anything about it (Romans 5:6).

    Despite these seemingly insurmountable obstacles, Christ died for His people, ungodly sinners though we were.

    Furthermore, this unparalleled act of love resulted in the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given to us (Romans 5:5).

    Without asking our permission or counsel, the Lord decided to save a multitude of sinners, out of every nation, tribe, people and language.

    He would be their God and they would be His people, to the praise of His glorious grace.

    At the same time, the Lord decided not to save multitudes of other sinners.

    Instead, He preferred to punish them for their sins, to the praise of His glorious justice.

    Keep in mind, there is no difference between sinners guilty in Adam who were not yet born.

    Yet, before mankind came into being, God had already determined who would be His people, and who would not be His people.

    His reasoning for choosing some sinners over others is hidden from us.

    Thus, we are given the command to preach the Gospel to every creature, trusting God to give the increase to whom He will.

    For God knows who are His own, those for whom Christ died (2 Timothy 2:19; Matthew 1:21)).

    To summarize:

    God gives the necessary means by which the Elect are infallibly saved.

    This is a positive decree.

    God denies the necessary means by which the Reprobate may be saved.

    This is a negative decree.

    Romans 9:18

    Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    In this verse Paul compares election to reprobation.

    They both originate in the sovereign eternal will of God’s good pleasure, contingent on nothing outside of Himself.

    But there is yet another reason for Paul’s comparison.

    Both are positive actions of God stemming from positive decrees.

    Not only has God decreed to not grant saving grace to certain sinners, He has also positively decreed to judicially harden those same sinners, fitting them for certain destruction.

    From our vantage point it is not obvious as to when that hardening process begins in the reprobate.

    Consider the case of Paul.

    The early Christians could not readily believe Paul was actually converted, having experienced his unbridled hostility, as well as the harm to which he had exposed them.

    Yet there are cases of hardening which we can and should discern.

    Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

    A seared conscience is a hardened conscience, unwilling to desire that which is good, preferring evil instead.

    Even common sense is lost.

    The German extermination of the Jews is a recent example of such a conscience.

    The ongoing torture, rape and sodomizing of Catholic children by the Catholic priesthood is another example.

    The perpetual cover-up of the sexual assaults by the Catholic Church hierarchy is yet another.

    The overt homosexuality of the Priesthood has been publicly exposed for centuries revealing an evil conscience.

    The sacrifice of the Mass in which a wafer is offered to God as a propitiation for sins is the result of a seared conscience.

    The doctrine of Transubstantiation whereby the wafer is believed to be the God-man Christ is yet another proof of a hardened conscience.

    And can there be any doubt that the Roman Pontiff, who communes with Voodoo dolls and their spirits, is numbered among the damned?

    I would have the reader to note the doctrine of forbidding marriage is considered a doctrine of devils.

    Here the Holy Spirit points to the Roman Catholic Church as demonic, for it is this Church which forbids its clergy and nuns the ‘sacrament of marriage.’

    And have they not commanded their followers to abstain from meat on Fridays?

    I now ask the reader to consider the fact that there have been numerous ‘Evangelical’ leaders who have called the Roman Catholic Church a Christian Church, its Pope a Christian man to be honored as a role model.

    Is it possible that by such affirmations these so-called ‘leaders’ are revealing a judicial hardening and blinding which God has been set in motion and from which they can never recover?
     
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I recently joined a message board that had 'baptist' in its url, but was not even remotely baptist as it had a UMC as an admin. That admin had started a thread gloating about the UMC recently ordaining their first LGBT minister. When I confronted him, it was as if I had spit in everyone's face. None backed me. None. Needless to say, I told them I was leaving. Reprobates in churches is further proof the end is near...
     
  9. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Today you are considered a 'hater' when calling out sin and hypocrisy......especially among those hypocrites within professing Christendom.
    Is there a bigger hypocrite than the Pope?
    Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity is a forgotten Scripture to many.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I think this disagreement betwixt you and Brother Biblicist boils down to infra vs. supra in the lapsarian debate. I lean heavily towards supra.
     
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Well while we on the subject of hypocrites........


    Jesus Christ is Lord.

    Let me hear you say Jesus Christ is Lord. Let me hear you say Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

    Why can't you declare this? Whats up with that?
     
  12. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning

    Sometime after 1000pm Pacific, this thread will be closed.
     
  13. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed.
     
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