To find a reconciliatory stance would behoove the question, does God contradict Himself? Would God say one thing in one place and then change his stance in another? Wouldn't that take away the immutability of God? If there are clear and concise verses which clearly show OSAS and there definitely are, if God is immutable that unchangable and He is, then the verses that are considered by some to say the opposite must be misinterpreted to read it as being so or they are right and the OSAS clear verses must be interpreted incorrectly, their can be no reconciliatory stance. For God is immutable along with all His other attribute the verses for OSAS are very clear and Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" applies so the OSAS stance is the only true stance.
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What does it take for the Holy Spirit to live inside a person?
- Thread starter Samuels
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To find a reconciliatory stance would behoove the question, does God contradict Himself? Would God say one thing in one place and then change his stance in another? Wouldn't that take away the immutability of God? If there are clear and concise verses which clearly show OSAS and there definitely are, if God is immutable that unchangable and He is, then the verses that are considered by some to say the opposite must be misinterpreted to read it as being so or they are right and the OSAS clear verses must be interpreted incorrectly, their can be no reconciliatory stance. For God is immutable along with all His other attribute the verses for OSAS are very clear and Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" applies so the OSAS stance is the only true stance.
What if your so-called OSAS verses have been misunderstood?
Satan has caused all kinds of spiritual Truths
to be misunderstood.
IMO, true saving belief includes obedience.
E.G. Hebrews says disobedience proves unbelief.
I agree with the world-famous evangelist T.L.Osborne's research, which resulted in:
True saving faith = belief-faith-trust-obedience.
Have I mentioned the little fishes?
If not, I will be happy to.
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There is over 150 verses against OSAS, the bible is PACKED.
And you want to convince us the correct theology is the one the Devil introduced and started this mess to begin with?
You can't lose your salvation is the first thing SATAN taught. That's his BEST WORK.
Genesis 3
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Hey your already saved.....your going to be like Jesus.....
Your not going die, your not going fall...
Whats the difference between OSAS and what the Devil is preaching? Oh nothing is gonna happen
You can sin its ok.
Actually, Jesus taught that truth to us, and that was comfirmed by all of the Apostles of His!
The true satanic infouence was and still being seen in the church of Rome, that teaches a different Gospel, and just as the Pharisees also did, sees itself as being the only true church of Jesus, and yet, its very main core doctrines would come from satan Himself!
Matthew 18
21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
^Self explanatory OSAS is false.
The heavenly father had forgiven all the debt he was saved, but because he did not show mercy, he is handed over to the torturers.
The entire moral of the story is AGAINST OSAS.
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
Jesus Christ taught this. AMEN to Jesus Christ. You can't even say AMEN to what Jesus teaches.
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
No......I'm done. You already forgave me, I'm saved. I don't have to do a thing. I don't have to do the good works and forgive him. He can just legally pay up.
No......I'm done. You already forgave me, I'm saved. I don't have to do a thing. I don't have to do the good works and forgive him. He can just legally pay up.
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Here we see Paul teaching the exact thing Christ taught.Those who follow sin after salvation and refuse to return will be turned over to the torturer (satan) for destruction of the flesh but the Spirit of that person will be saved in the day of the Lord, clearly Paul did not contradict what Jesus stated, and the man in gross sin who was a believer was to be turned over to satan who would destroy his flesh, but could not touch his Spirit.
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to
blaspheme
Clearly here too we see these two who had turned from the truth and sought after false teaching were to be turned over to the destroyer to learn not to blaspheme in other words that they might turn back to the truth and if they didn't then their flesh would be destroyed and the spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.
Oh the carnal Corinthians we see what Paul stated to them,
2 Corinthians 1:21-23
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
Believers are sealed with the earnest of the Holy Spirit. We see what Paul called them in 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
That word carnal in the Greek is "SarX" meaning flesh, they were saved and living in the flesh. Those same carnal Christians at Corinth were to see a fellow carnal believer turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord.
Very clear Jesus was not teaching loss of salvation but was teaching if we don't forgive and if we continue in the flesh after we are forgiven we will be turned over to satan (the tormentors) for destruction but the spirit will be saved in the day of Christ that shows OSAS very clearly.
1 Corinthians 5:5 is the one verse that OSASers bring up, while ignoring/rejecting many others which do clearly
threaten loss of eternal life!
One brother here insists there are 150+ of these,
while I have always claimed only 100+.
Woe is me, for I am undone once again!
threaten loss of eternal life!
One brother here insists there are 150+ of these,
while I have always claimed only 100+.
Woe is me, for I am undone once again!
The false teaching of the imaginary person in the flesh.....an unsaved person....who is saved and yet remains in the flesh is a repeated falsehood that has no place in this discussion
.
.
You have to understand what the Bible teaches about salvation before trying to understand the nature of the warnings
Lot was saved the whole time.....you do not understand the verse.....vexed means he ,that is Lot was worn down,by the filthy conversation of the wicked
He practiced some of their same wickedness, We see how much he was in this in
Genesis 19:
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
He was so into this he offered his daughters to these men for their pleasure.
We see just how much Lot was involved in verse 14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
He was seen as a hypocrite by his son's in law.
Then he allowed his daughters to get him drunk and we see,
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
He had children by his daughters and one of those sons peoples were quite prominent in the area and the Moabite people came about the same Moabites who hated the Jews but that Ruth came out from.
Lot was fully involved in sin in Sodom and yet was called righteous by Peter, why was Lot righteous? Because he had the same faith as Abraham and all Believers a faith in the Savior who bought Him with the same price He has bought all believers, that is Jesus Christ.
All who are truly saved are seen in what Peter stated in 1 Peter 1:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
We are redeemed by the precious blood of Christ not by sel-righteous works added to that Faith.
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
His blood paid the price for our redemption thus salvation comes by Grace through Faith in that Savior not by anything we do to keep ourselves saved.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
By His blood all of our sins are washed away and we are saved and not one of the passages above says we must keep ourselves saved but we are saved by HIS BLOOD shed for our sin and because we called upon Him for that Salvation
Romans 10;13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
What will our righteous do for us, Isaiah 64: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
How can those filthy rags help restore anyone who was once saved by God's grace through Faith, they cannot. Christ died once for all the just for the unjust and as such only He can remove salvation from those whom HE Freely gave it because of their faith otherwise man must use filthy rags of self-righteousness to keep himself saved.
Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
No......I'm done. You already forgave me, I'm saved. I don't have to do a thing. I don't have to do the good works and forgive him. He can just legally pay up.
34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him
He didn't say Jesus is going to pay it. He has to pay it. A few 1000000000 years into eternity we can look at our watch.........SURE thing any day now.
Satan's first doctrine. Once Saved Always Saved. It is exactly what started this mess in the first place.
Satan first taught sinning does not put your life in jeopardy. That's exactly what he is trying to sell.
We got people who are abusers and divorced. They need a pass and license for their sins.
Your not going to fall if you sin, Satan says that all the time.
No......I'm done. You already forgave me, I'm saved. I don't have to do a thing. I don't have to do the good works and forgive him. He can just legally pay up.
34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him
He didn't say Jesus is going to pay it. He has to pay it. A few 1000000000 years into eternity we can look at our watch.........SURE thing any day now.
Satan's first doctrine. Once Saved Always Saved. It is exactly what started this mess in the first place.
Satan first taught sinning does not put your life in jeopardy. That's exactly what he is trying to sell.
We got people who are abusers and divorced. They need a pass and license for their sins.
Your not going to fall if you sin, Satan says that all the time.
And when a believer is turned over to Satan for destruction of the flesh as we see Paul state then what penalty does that believer pay? He loses his physical life and yet the Spirit of that believer is saved yet so as through the fire!
1 Corinthians 5
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
This measure called EXCOMMUNICATION is still in use today. So that the spirit MAY be saved.
It does not say WILL BE.
Using your logic, Why would not deliver everyone or no one at all? If I do deliver everyone so what they are saved, If I don't deliver everyone so what they are saved.
He's even telling you he is doing it to SAVE HIM, Why do it at all? Because if he does not he won't be!
Rmac
Your character aspiration of Lot is quite faulty, but I have heard others suggest such things.....I will answer it later at a keyboard.
You are not showing Lot enough love......you are ripping him down.
Your character aspiration of Lot is quite faulty, but I have heard others suggest such things.....I will answer it later at a keyboard.
You are not showing Lot enough love......you are ripping him down.
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I would say he loses much more than his physical life. He loses the blessed state of fellowship (not sonship) with God, the joy of his salvation, circumstantial or providential blessings, usefulness, testimony to others, and If NECESSARY his physical life.
I would agree that he and his family were 'greatly influenced' (tainted, as evidenced by Lot offering his daughters and at how quickly they reverted to incest) by the sin of Sodom, but "fully involved"?
From the book of Jasher:
11 In those days all the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and of the whole five cities, were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord and they provoked the Lord with their abominations, and they strengthened in aging abominably and scornfully before the Lord, and their wickedness and crimes were in those days great before the Lord.
12 And they had in their land a very extensive valley, about half a day's walk, and in it there were fountains of water and a great deal of herbage surrounding the water.
13 And all the people of Sodom and Gomorrah went there four times in the year, with their wives and children and all belonging to them, and they rejoiced there with timbrels and dances.
14 And in the time of rejoicing they would all rise and lay hold of their neighbor's wives, and some, the virgin daughters of their neighbors, and they enjoyed them, and each man saw his wife and daughter in the hands of his neighbor and did not say a word.
15 And they did so from morning to night, and they afterward returned home each man to his house and each woman to her tent; so they always did four times in the year.
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I have not read this thread, but this line caught my eye:
Someone cited Matthew 18:21-35, where someone who has been forgiven is subsequently turnover over to the tortures. Then the spiritual application is given, if you do not forgive your brother, from the heart, you will be turned over to the tortures. The question is does this apply to those not yet saved, or does it apply to those who have been born anew. Is this Old Covenant theology or New Covenant theology?
God knows our heart attitudes, and if after being offered forgiveness for all we have done or ever will do, we are unable to forgive what we see as faults of others, it shows we do not actually love God more than ourselves. Such a person would not chosen, and on that day will be told, depart from Me, I never knew you. Not I knew you once, but you blew it.
My view is that their are zero verses or passages that teach once a person is saved (born anew and sealed in Christ) that something can take them out of God's hand.
Someone cited Matthew 18:21-35, where someone who has been forgiven is subsequently turnover over to the tortures. Then the spiritual application is given, if you do not forgive your brother, from the heart, you will be turned over to the tortures. The question is does this apply to those not yet saved, or does it apply to those who have been born anew. Is this Old Covenant theology or New Covenant theology?
God knows our heart attitudes, and if after being offered forgiveness for all we have done or ever will do, we are unable to forgive what we see as faults of others, it shows we do not actually love God more than ourselves. Such a person would not chosen, and on that day will be told, depart from Me, I never knew you. Not I knew you once, but you blew it.
But he doesn't lose his salvation