Featured Wine or Grape Juice in the Supper???

After I graduated from College, I had been accepted at the University of Kentucky for their M.A. program in Ancient languages. The term did not begin until fall and it was summer. I had always been a grape juice advocate and my standby book was Patton's book "Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation." During the Summer I started researching the classical Greek references in Pattons' book. To my amazement, not a single reference was correct. What I mean by "correct" is that they were jerked out of context and in context what Patton said simply was not true. For example, Patten quotes Homer in the Odyssey where the Cyclops asked for more "sweet black wine" as a proof text that it had to grape juice because it was "sweet." However, it is that "sweet black wine" that intoxicated the cyclops so much that they were able to poke out his eye.

If you are a grape juice man and are really up on your stuff, I would like to conduct a friendly discussion with you concerning those things you think prove that the drink in the Lord's Supper was not wine. Yes, and I am very familiar with the extra-Biblical phrases "unfermented wine" versus "fermented wine."

 

Have you ever read A.M. Wilson's Book "Wines of the Bible"? It is a hard book to get hold of, but Wilson was a Classical Greek Scholar who was a self-confessed "teetotaler" but when the "Bible Temperance Commentary" was published along with some other articles by those embracing the new theory of "unfermented" wine, Wilson read them and was outraged by the dishonesty. I was reading Spurgeon when he gave a quote from Wilson. The only place that would loan it out through the inter-library loan system was Ambassador College in Pasadena California. I got their permission to photocopy it and the photocopies remained in my study for 34 years. In 2014 I arduously reset the type and then posted it on our website. Since that time, another gentleman wrote me and claimed he finished writing something more up to date than Wilson but I lost his address.

However, I am more interested in the Biblical defense provided by those who embrace Grape Juice. I agree with your post and the historical facts will back up what you said. thank you.

 

Ann, the whole purpose of a symbol is to convey the truth it was designed to convey. If one tampers with the form of the symbol they tamper with the truth it was designed to convey. If they pervert the symbol by changing it, they pervert the truth it was designed to convey.

For example, baptism is a visible symbol that identifies one with the "likeness" of the death burial and resurrection of Christ (Rom. 6:3-5) as Paul says one is "buried" with Christ in baptism. If you change the form from the historical meaning of baptisma which means to dip, plunge, immerse to pouring or sprinkling, the the truth it was designed to convey is perverted and in this case the gospel is denied by completey eradicating it from the administration.

The same thing is true with the Lord's Supper. For example, the bread is to be "unleavened" (1 Cor. 5:6-8) which symbolizes the sinlessness of Christ which is the whole basis for his qualification to redeem us. The liquid element in the Supper represents Christ's blood and its cleansing and redeeming power from sin. Grape juice if poured into a open wound would cause infection. However, wine was a common antespetic for cleansing a wound.

When Jesus observed the Supper, he commanded his discples to go prepare the passover. Meaning, the regular elements used in the Jewish Passover were what Christ used to institute the Supper. When I was in college there was a seminary close by where several Jewish Rabbi's were attending (and I used their library for research and became friends with the librarian). One Jewish Rabbi was earning his doctrine degree. I asked him if the Jews ever used grape juice in the Passover. He looked at me in amazement and started laughing and then said, "you Christians are something else, we have never used anything but red wine in the passover and still today we use red wine." He directed me to the Mishnah where the traditional observance of the passover is described and how it was divided into four portions with each portion opened with drinking a cup of wine mixed with three parts water. Each cup had a special name. The name of the third division where the third cup was drank was called the "cup of blessing" and it accompanied a prayer that asked for God's blessing over that cup as "the fruit of the vine."

Wine has a clear symbol in scriptures - joy and cleansing and is an appropriate symbol of the blood of Christ that cleanses us from the defilement of sin. On the other hand, if you poured grapejuice into an open wound it would infect it, rather than cleanse it. Just some thoughts.

 

Very good! Yes, this text clearly seems to support they drank fresh pressed grape juice. BTW I was agreeing with Smyth's overall historical assessment as that was my assessment when I checked the historical facts behind the myth of "unfermented wine."

Well Jerome, is it your position that grape juice is the proper element for the Lord's Supper? If so, then I would simply like to get your Bible based reasons for taking that position. I don't hold this as a issue of fellowship. I have good friends, professors, pastors and churches I fellowship with that take that position. This is strictly a friendly exchange on my part, so don't get tensed up.

 

I did my research 30 years ago and quite frankly I am little rusty on the points of debate. I would just like to read your Biblical based reasons for embracing grape juice over wine.

 

That is the point isn't it? Nowhere is the drink in the cup called "wine" even if the dream represents a reality? Why do you think admitting it may be fresh grape juice gives any real support for the unfermented wine theory?

However, you may have a point. The dream presents an accelerated process. The vine instantly produced grapes, therefore, the fermentation process may have just as instantly occurred from the grapes being pressed into the cup. In fact, the accelerated process makes more sense to me.

 

I have to agree with Symth on this point. In the dream everything is accelerated. The vine buds, blossoms and brings forth grapes. Hence, the natural processes that would occur over a long period of time are presented as taking place instantly. Likewise, the processes of natural fermentation would be just as equally presented instantly from pressing the grapes into the cup and handing it Pharaoh as though the fermentation process occurred instantly.

 

The Nazirite ritual was matter of type. Wine symbolizes joy and gladness in the Bible but the nazirite was a type of Christ with regard to a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. I believe that is why the Nazeiite was forbidden wine.

 

Hi woody, been a while. RSR has it right, it was grains and food stuff where the prohibition of leaven occurs.

Let me give you the strongest argument that Jesus did use wine in the Lord's Supper. In Matthew 26:12-16 the disciples were told to make ready the Passover. So the Lord used the materials the Jews of that day for the passover. I have talked to Jewish rabbi's and they told me that the Jews have never ever used grape juice in the passover but always red wine. The Mishnah records the earliest account of how jews observed the passover and they divided the passover into four part, each beginning with a prayer and a cup of wine that was mixed with three parts water. The the third cup was called "the cup of blessing" and in the prayer for the wine they were to drink they called it "the fruit of the vine."

I have never read or heard of any grape juice advocate who could respond to this historical fact. Do you have a response to that? Does anyone have a response to that?