Featured What Promise did they not receive but looked for? - Heb. 11:39-40

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now we have posters on this forum that want to tell us their opinions which are not formulated from the previous context of this text but from a patch work of texts and interpretations gathered from hither and thither.

Does the immediate context define the "promise" and what it was that they looked for but never received? I believe the context spells it out clearly:

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

He already was in the "land of promise" but what he looked for in that land of promise was "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." He never found it in the "land of promise" even though he looked for it. The only "land of promise" where "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" is not found in this world, but in a new world to come when it comes down from heaven UPON EARTH - a new earth.

We have not received this promise either. When will we receive this promise? Only after we have been made "perfect" in spirit, soul and body as that is the only kind of person who will obtain this promise and enter that land of promise. We are both waiting. We are waiting on earth while they are waiting in heaven but neither of us have obtained "the same promise." It is yet future.

This can't refer to going to heaven as we have not yet gone to heaven and they cannot partake of the promise without us or so says the text.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

This cannot refer to the present heaven because the writer says they will not obtain this promise "without us" and we are still on earth and so was the writer when he penned these words. They looked for a city made by God in the promised land where they wandered and did not find it and so believed it had to be in the future.

Note that even "NOW" they are (present tense verbs) desiring this better country with this city (v. 16). And where are they "NOW" when the writer penned these words? They were in the present heaven but still looking for this promise to be fulfilled. Where are we "now"? We are "now" on earth and the writer was on earth when penning these words, but they will not obtain this promise "without us" and so this must refer to the coming new heaven and earth when a city comes down from heaven upon a new earth - a new promised land.

When does that occur? Only after we have been made "perfect" spirit, soul and body as that is the only people who obtain this promise and they have not obtained this promise and we have not obtained this promise and won't obtain this promise until we obtain it together.

This text in context cannot be used to prove that they were without salvation or could not go to heaven or were without the Holy Spirit as this text has nothing to do with salvation on this earth or in the present heaven but in the future land of promise where a city can be found whose maker and builder is God - Rev. 21-22:3.

 

Why are you attempting to derail this thread with questions that have nothing to do with the stated subject of this thread? This text is not about HOW we are glorified but it is about why this text cannot be used as a proof text against Old Testament saints being as saved as we are. Please have the Christian courtesy to start your own thread if this is what you wish to talk about. Since, I have known you, you are constantly bringing up the very same verses and very same issue in threads that have nothing to do with your agenda.

 

Thank you Percho. Your response makes me feel a lot better about you. If you start a thread on the subject I will chime in and give you my 2 cents.

 

You did well up to this point. You proved the word "perfect" means to bring to completion. However, in this text the word "promise" (v. 39) and "perfect" (v. 40) are synonyms. The "promise" has been clearly defined by the preceding context NOT to enter heaven but for heaven to come down to earth. Abraham was looking for a city made by God ON EARTH (vv. 13-17). Note the "us" which includes the writer who is neither in heaven or brought to "perfection" and yet this perfection will not occur "without" us. Finally, that "perfection" is described in the very next chapter which is still something we are in the "race" for, still something yet future in the form of a "kingdom" we have not yet obtained.

You are correct that we have something "better" which is described in the next chapter. We are running a race not for salvation, we have a birth right that is not salvation but receiving a "kingdom" to rule and reign with Christ as the bride. Old Testament saints are not in this race, instead they are NOW watching us run this race. They are not in the running for this birthright and receiving of this yet future kingdom in the sense of rule as the Bride but are guests at this wedding (Rev. 19:6-9) and many other saved persons will not live in that City (Rev. 21:24).

 

The plural promises all have to do with the future hope as a singular "promise". That singular hope was salvation brought to its ulitmate completion in heaven on earth - Rev. 21

 

In context, the promises they were looking for were (1) Ultimate city of God on earth - vv. 10; (2) the repopulation of an entire world by their promised seed - v. 12; (3) ultimate promised land "a country" - vv. 13-16

None of these promise have yet occurred. None of these promises will occur until Revelation 21. We have not obtained those promises yet, nor will they "without us." All of these promises will occur when we and they have been brought to complete "perfection."

In the mean time, God has provided something better for us. That something is what we are in a race to obtain while they are watching us run that race (Heb. 12:1-2). That something is the position of firstborn which we can lose as did Esau (Heb. 12:16-17) and as did Israel (Heb. 12:18-20). The church of firstborn ones have the opportunity to "receive a kingdom" or rule with Christ in the Jerusalem as his bride (Heb. 12:28). Not all the saved will live in the city but most will live outside the city on the NEW EARTH - Rev. 21:24

 

The church is a New Testament revelation and New Testament in origin. It is the bride of Christ. Old Testament saints are saved but they are not part of the church. The New Jerusalem includes the faithful of the Old Testament and the church, while the vast majority of the saved dwell outside the New Jerusalem living upon the new earth - Rev. 21:24. So the church is the dividing line.

 

Actually it does say this when you consider the entire context. The "heavenly" country is a new country whereupon the city dwells. The context makes it clear that is was on earth he had been looking for that city and thus an earthly city:

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

This text makes it clear that he was looking for that city in the land of promise, a city upon this earth. The following text denies they found it here but that they still looked for a "country" where it would be found:

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

He could have said they desired "heaven" but rather they "seek a country" and the last use of the term "country" describes earth, not heaven. The difference is the one upon which the City will be found is a "heavenly" country - Rev. 21:1-25.

Yes, but he is not speaking of them as individuals but as the "assembly of first born ones" (lit. Gr. uses plural). Yes, but see the contextual contrast in Hebrews 12:17-20. Moses and the children of Israel came in the presence of God and angels when they were assembled at the foot of Mount Sinai. These too, come before God when they are assembled as the ekklesia of firstborn ones (plural in Greek text). In Chapter 10 he encouraged them not to "forsake the assemblying of themselves together) and in chapter 13:7-17 that assemblying is further described. The reasons for not forsaking the assemblying are given between Heb. 10:26-13:7. First, forsaking the New Testament ekklesia is in that period of history the same as forsaking the New Covenant (Heb. 10:26-30). They are encouraged to remain faithful (Heb. 10:31-11:38) in their assembling because (1) God has a better reward in the new heaven and earth for the ekklesia of Christ than he does for Old Testament saints; (2) They are in a race to attain that reward (Heb. 12:1-3). (3) Chasten aids them in running this race (Heb. 12:5-10). (3) Don't sell out your birthright like Esau; (4) You are not assembling before God in a hopeless cause like under the Old Covenant (Heb. 12:17-20); (5) Your assembling has all the support of heaven and the blessings of the New Covenant (Heb. 12:21-25). (6) This present era will pass away soon and you will receive that better reward ("kingdom") so lets remain faithful (Heb. 12:27-13:6); (7) Your continued assemblying has value to you, others and God (Heb. 12:7-17).