Featured Roman Soteriology Exposed and Condemned

Hi priscilla,

Fair warning, there are two avid Roman Catholics on this forum who are out to proselyte (in spite of their denials). I am happy you can see through their errors. DHK is the moderator of this part of the forum and is an ex-Catholic and is much better qualified to help you in the more technical aspects than I am and I know he would be glad to assist you in any way to better understand and witness to them. Best wishes.

 

So deceptive and pathetic! You know very well the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is distinct from our view of progressive sanctification. You know very well that the Catholic doctrine mixes justification with sanctification. So your pious presumptive argument that you can let "faith alone fly depending on how you define "faith alone" is pure utter deception and perversion and you know it. The Council of Trent spelled it out clearly that even a fool can understand what they are condemning. They perfectly understood that the doctrine was not mixed with progressive sanctification and they knew perfectly well that those justified were also sanctified without mixing justification with sanctification. So this presumptuous pious hypocritcal abusive portrayal of what we believe is inexcusable.

To believe that we are JUSTIFIED by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS does not deny that those justified thus, are also SANCTIFIED by the indwelling regenerating Spirit whereby the fruit of the Spirit (Love, peace, joy, etc.) is the progressive consequences.

However, Rome perverted doctrine MIXES justification with sanctification so that it is no more "faith" that justifies but "faithfulness" that justifies and thus repudiates the complete satisfaction of all legal demands against the sinner by Christ's own personal faithfulness in our position before God.

Justification is not about what we are or we we do for God but about what Christ did, compeleted and finished in his own body during his life (righteousness) and death (remission of sins) as a completely free gift. Whereas, progressive sanctification is what Christ through the Spirit does IN and THROUGH us producing Christlikeness which is never completed until glorification.

So stop playing the hypocritical games for we know what Rome believes and Rome knows what we believe so stop perverting our position.

 

There is no cult in existence that repudiates what the Scriptures teach more than Rome.

You don't believe Jesus lived for you and therefore his death avails nothing for you.

No you don't! You believe in good works IN ADDITION to faith in Christ is necessary for ultimate justification, thus you deny that Christ satisfied all that the righteous demands of the Law against you (sin is transgressing the law, and the law reveals the righteousness of God).

We believe in the final authority of Scripture so that churches like yours can be avoided.

No you are not! If orthodoxy is defined by Scriptures than what you are is non-orthodox and a non-Christian institution.

No you don't but you have persecuted the true Christians and true churches of Christ since 250 A.D. those whom your own historians call the "Anabaptists" and those whom your monkish historians have distorted their doctrine and perverted their views.

False again. You would not know the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ if it stared you in the face. You pervert His gospel, have a 1000 year track record of killing gospel preachers and have not changed at all except you can't get away with killing Christians now. If anyone needs evangelization it is the regular Roman Catholic church goer. With regard to you and your friend, you are both proselyters hardened against the truth.

 

I have presented Romans 4 as an irrefutable condemnation of Roman Church sacramentalism and thus far you and your friend have no answers.

1. Abraham lived 430 years prior to Moses and the Law and therefore "works" in Romans 4:1-6 cannot possibly refer to the Law but rather to his own efforts.

2. Abraham was justified "without works" before God at the point of faith as his own person was "ungodly" and therefore God justifieth the "ungodly" that worketh not but believeth - Rome believes the very reverse that God only and ultimately justifies the godly.

3. Abraham was justified at the point of faith completely and fully (vv. 9-11 Aorist tense "had") and not by a progressive justification as Rome teaches.

4. Abraham was justified by "faith" NOT BY FAITHFULNESS as Rome teaches - vv. 16-21

5. Justification is not sanctification nor can it be mixed with sanctification as Rome teaches and yet all who are justified are sanctified manifested in good works.

 

Faith alone justifies us without works but faith is not alone and what accompanies it has nothing to do with justification but with sanctification and that is where it "worketh" by love.

Have you ever read Hebrews 11. After verse 4 we read the repetitive "BY faith" showing that it is the determining factor that always proceeds true obedience.

Not true! They believe "in God" in the sense of acknowledging his existence and power but they do not "trust" in him FOR anything. Do you know the difference between "vain faith" versus "dead faith" or historical faith??? guess not or would not make such a foolish statement about Satan. He believes IN God's existence, power and presence, but they do not trust in God FOR anything.

More ignorance exhibited! We do not teach faith is alone, but faith produces works as Hebrews 11 repetively says "by faith" so and so DID such and such. Faith "worketh" by love and produces works. However, Justification is by faith alone without works but not without a faith that does not produce works.

This is all that James is saying. Justification by faith alone is never a "dead" faith that is alone, but it is not the consequences of faith (works) that justifies us. We are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS but not by a faith that is without works. Let me break it down into bite sizes peices so you can understand what I am saying. It is faith alone in Christ alone that justifies us WITHOUT THE CONSEQUENCES, without the manifest fruits OF FAITH which is works produced in our life. This is James point, a person may SAY he has faith, but a person can say anything. Those who are really justified by faith alone in Christ alone without works are in possession of that faith which will manifest itself in works. Works are the consequences of faith but are not faith, and are not included in what justifies us before God. However, the faith that justifies us before God without works is a faith that produces works. Hence, those truly justified by faith without works are made manifest by the same faith which will produce works.

So yes, I can say Amen to James 2:26 because it teaches precisely what we believe.

 

Why should I want to read any other way than it does??? Love is the fruit of the Spirit and the regenerative work of the Spirit is "unto good works" (Eph. 2:10). But the point is that it does not say we are justified through love does it??? No! Neither does it say we are justified through works. No! What is says is that we are justified by faith or "saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8).

Rome confuses justification with sanctification. Sanctification has its roots in regeneration and the new inner man from which the fruit of the Spirit is worked out into the life of the believer. However, justification has its roots in the life and death of Christ in our behalf as a completed finished work that can only be received by faith BECAUSE we cannot ADD to something finished an perfect. Faith can only receive it as a FREE GIFT because faith cannot improve it. Faith worketh through love which is the fruit of the Spirit and that refers to sanctification not justification.

Justification deals with our legal position before God with regard to the Law of God and its standard of righteousness, which is the righteousness of God, and penalty for coming short of the "glory of God" or his holiness/righteousness. In other words God's law demands you must be as good as God to avoid its penalty and obtain its reward. No fallen human can achieve either in his own person and by his own works. No regenerate man can achieve either through the power of the Spirit in your own person and your own works.

So, if Christ does not satisfy it IN YOUR PLACE you are without hope because with or without God inside of you, you will NEVER attain that standard in this life and you have only this life to find some way to achieve as being as good as God. God has never sinned, and never needed forgiveness and so forgiven persons have already failed to achieve that standard. Your life cannot improve the life of Christ and your works cannot improve his finished works. If sanctification is your basis for final justification you will go straight to hell because you will never in this life achieve personal perfection in your own person. Therefore, justification can only be FREELY BY GRACE through faith in the "good news" that Christ has obtained absolute sinless perfection in the eyes of the law FOR SINNERS and paid in full the complete penalty of the Law and nothing done by you or by the Spirit through you can equal that or obtain that by YOUR LIFE and so it can only be obtained as a FREE GIFT received by faith.

In contrast, sanctification is a progressive work of the Holy Spirit within the regenerate person through which the Spirit of God gradually conforms the believer to the image of Christ, but which is never completed until glorification in the resurrection. Here is where faith worketh through love as love for God's free gracious justification is the true motivator to serve Him. We love him because he first loved us. To serve him in order to be justified is an open repudiation of the finished work of Jesus Christ and rejection of the gift of justification through faith. That is what you are guilty of, and that is what Rome is guilty of. You are attempting to ADD works performed in and through your own body to what Christ has already finished in His own body in behalf of all who simply receive it by faith. That is the "good news" while what you believe and are doing is TERRIBLE NEWS because it simply cannot be done! As Paul says you are frustrating the grace of God.

Rome merges justification with sanctification whereas Paul separates them without denying their co-existence in the life of all true believers.

So again, I have no problems with James or Paul but you certainly do! Paul says justification is "without works" but he did not say that faith was without works did he? James says true faith that justifies is not without works and thus says the same as Paul. Neither teach justification by works but rather teach justification without works through faith that will produce works, but the works produced HAVE NOTHING TO DO with justification but WHOLLY to do with SANCTIFICATION. So faith receives Christ's finished works as an empty hand receives a gift but then REACTS or RESPONDS (here is where sanctification begins) through love because of that free gift. So we don't work in order to obtain justification but faith worketh through love because we have been justified freely by his grace.

In contrast, you are working in order to be justified and at no point in your Catholic life will you ever really know you will ever be justified and the sad truth is that no fallen human being will ever be justified by working for it. Paul's doctrine of justification is a finished action at the point of faith, but your Catholic doctrine of justification is never finished in this life and you really don't know for sure it will ever be finished even in your imaginary purgatory. That is truly sad, especially, when justification by faith is "FREELY BY GRACE through faith in Christ already having FINISHED all that will ever be necessary for time and eternity.

 

You still don't understand?!?!? Any faith that is not evidenced by good works is not the faith that justifies but a "dead" faith. So no, "that" kind of faith saves no one as "that" kind faith is mere intellectual assent which demons have. "That" is not the faith created by God in his elect. Faith in justification simply receives, having received the free gift of justification, that same faith reacts through love for what has been received freely by grace. Can't say it any simpler! Faith is the hinge on which Justification and sanctification are connected and yet they are distinct actions.The first (justification) is a completed action at the point of faith in the gospel. The second is a continuing progressive action that is never completed until glorification in the resurrection. The first obtains approval before God for entrance into heaven. The second obtains present blessings, spiritual growth and future rewards in heaven. Faith receives God's provision in Christ as promised in the Gospel to all who believe - that is justification, a finished completed action at the point of faith in the gospel, then that same faith that has already received Christ worketh through love as a REACTION to that free gift of justification. It is not another faith, but the same faith.

Paul is defining the doctrine of justifcation without works by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone because the works of Christ completely satisfy all legal requirements against the elect - this obtains entrance into heaven secured by Christ's righteousness and sin payment IN OUR STEAD - this is what faith receives when beleiving the gospel. That is why the gospel means "good news" but what you are teaching is "bad news" because you are attempting to include SELF in what Christ finished FOR YOU. Your gospel is "jesus and me" whereas the true gospel is Jesus alone FOR you.

James is defining faith of those who ALREADY PROFESS to have been justified - "though a man may SAY". James is saying that the faith that justifies is the same faith that reacts through love in obedience to God's commandments. James is simply saying that any person who has been justified by faith will also be obedient by faith as sanctification is inseparably connected with justification but is not justification.

To answer your question, what is the difference between faith working through love versus love working through faith is merely the difference which one is instrumental means for the other. In the former love is the instrumental means through which faith works, in the latter faith is the instrumental means through which love works. It seems you actually believe the latter whereas I believe the former. I believe love is the instrumental means through which faith works, meaning our faith is expressed through love and love is the keeping of God's commandments. However, this is speaking of sanctification not justification as faith does not work at all in justification but is the simple means of receiving rather than giving.

 

Either you don't read very well or don't read my post at all. What is it that you don't understand about justification by faith without works but not justification by faith that does not work?????? Is that concept too difficult for you to grasp? Paul is talking about the former while James is talking about the latter!

When James says "that" faith, he is not speaking about the doctrine of justification by faith without works, but about PROFESSING the doctrine of justification by faith that is not manifested by good works. "That" faith does not save because "that" faith is not the kind of faith that characterizes the true doctrine of justification by faith without works. James is looking at the person who has already made a profession of justification by faith without works and asking if it is a working faith or a faith that manifests itself in works. Is this too difficult for you to grasp?

He is not contradicting Paul's clear doctrine of justification without works in Romans 3-5 but is rather confirming Paul's doctrine that a person who is justified by faith without works is a person who is also regenerated and thus produces works that manifest such a faith in Romans 6-8.

Your problem is that you are pitting scripture against scripture in order to justify Romans repudiation of Pauline doctrine of justification as you and Rome MIX justification with sanctification and neither Paul or James joins you in that confusion.

If you are just going to ignore what I have said and keep on making the lame charge that I am not dealing with these texts then I will just ignore these pitiful responses of yours.

 

I guess I have to break this down into bite size pieces and spell it out in order for our Catholic friends to be able to grasp my responses to James.

A. The PROFESSION of faith without practical evidences - vv. 14-18

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is addressing the kind of person who PROFESSES faith - "though a man say.....a man may say." He illustrates this profession and characterizes it as one wholly void of any practical evidences (vv. 15-16).

So he is not addressing the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith without works which occurs and is completed AT THE POINT of faith in the Gospel, but he is addressing the profession of a person in his post-justification state who makes the claim that he has present possession of faith and yet there is absolutely no visible evidence for his claim. It is "That" kind of professed faith that cannot save, because justification is by faith without works but it is not a faith that remains stagnant, but worketh through love. So we are saved by faith alone but not faith which is alone - can you savvy that???? That is James point and his only point.

In verses 19-20 he is now speaking about HISTORICAL faith as a profession. Devils do not "trust" in God but they do "believe" God exists and thus, believe "in God" in the sense of historical truth or mere mental assent. However, historical faith justifies no one, saves no one, and provides no evidence that can satisfy anyone that such a person is a child of God - historical faith involves only THE MIND whereas justifying faith is created by God IN THE HEART (2 Cor. 4:6).

Then in verses 21 James illustrates this point by using Rahab and Abraham and how their justification by faith without works was visibly manifested by works proving that faith created by God in the heart that justifies us without works, remains in the heart but is manifested outside of the heart not merely by profession but by evidential works.

In the case of Rahab, the proof that she was already justified by faith without works is that when the spys needed help that faith evidenced itself by hiding them and then hanging a red cord out her window.

In the case of Abraham, who had already been justified by faith without works at the point of faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8 with Gen. 15:1-3) that faith became evidenced in his obedience serveral years later in his offering up of his only Son trusting God that he would raise him from the dead.

Therefore, the conclusive illustration of the body and spirit is about the presence of faith in one who has already been justified by faith without works at the point of faith in the gospel. That faith is like the body and works are like the spirit. Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works is also a "dead" faith. The faith that justifies us before God without works is evidenced AFTERWARDS not by mere profession but by evidential works. This does not mean that the evidential works that occur AFTER justification by faith without works are inclusive of justification but rather are merely the evidential consequences. Just as Abraham was justified by faith without works in Genesis 15 many years before Genesis 22, what happened in Genesis 22 was not his justification before God by faith, but was the continuing manifest evidences of that post-justification condition between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.