Featured Joel 2:28 relative to dispensationalism

"percho,

Peter said it was fulfilled at Pentecost;
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is fulfilled in the day of the Apostles...

 

I don't think so Iconoclast
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

These things are yet to happen unless the metaphorical preterist system is true..

HankD

 

Yes Hank....that is correct....compare the language of isa 13.
Isa 34....
Same metaphorical language

 

OK.

So here is a question which comes to mind (no need to answer here - really - just saying)

What then do the metaphors represent and have these metaphorical events happened yet?

HankD

 

Well it's true and it's happened:

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Realized on earth as:

12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him. Rev 12

17 And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject unto us in thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven. Lu 10

8 Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour, 1 Pet 5

...unless of course some convoluted spin given by a hardheaded dispie from a preconceived notion that denies all the time factors given to us is true.

 

I would change one word in this sentence to be in agreement.



HankD

 

Interesting.

Google definitions:

Metaphor:
1) a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
2) a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.

Allegory:
1) a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
e.g.Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of a spiritual journey.
2) a symbol.

HankD

 

Hank....the metaphors seem to be a change of government, or a change of administration.....There were many "Day of the Lord's"....that is a time of God's judgment falling upon a nation....
The imagery of The sun ,moon, and stars spoke of rulers....even back with Joseph gen37;
6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:

7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

in Isa13;
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Heb12
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
mt24
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Joel2, acts2
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Heb12

Babylon had to be destroyed....notice all the language that is bolded....I will put similar language from the NT under each phrase-There are several more and it all is from scripture itself.....

Here is the judgment of edom;
isa34;
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

now see rev6;
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


If these things literally took place, life on this planet would have ceased before the cross....
how would the heavens literally role up like a scroll???? how would literal stars fall to the earth without burning us to a crisp????
There are more figures like these that God has repeated in the OT already.....

 

My opinion, when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled then we will probably see things becoming literal - Sun, moon, stars, etc.

Gotta run - Dr. appointment.

HankD

 

My question to you is would those first century Jews share your view? Their Hebrew Scriptures were full of this type on language, why all of the sudden in their day would they assume it literal?

Hank, do you really think the moon will turn to blood? Do you really think the sun will turn to darkness?

Hope the doctor's visit went well.

 

When they (or anyone sees) see it coming to pass as literal.

The wonders shown to Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea were literal.

Yes. As I have said so often in the past - EVERYTHING depends upon how and what portions of scripture one interprets as literal, metaphor, mixed metaphor, hyperbole, simile, allegory, symbolic, etc...) and the bible is filled with both literalness and symbolism) So yes, IMO the sun will diminish in its brightness and the light of the moon will be appear to be a blood red color just before that great and notable day of the Lord comes.

So, we can both read this passage and say the scripture is true! and that's GREAT.

At my age it never does (well usually never).

HankD

 

Not sure how the parting of the Red Sea figures into this. In the other cases we have numerous examples of metaphorical language describing literal historical events.

Now the verse under consideration doesn't say "the sun will diminish in its brightness" it says it will be turned to darkness. Neither does it say, "the light of the moon will be appear to be a blood red color" it say the moon into blood. at least that would be the literal interpretation.

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Stay healthy my friend.

 

You just proved my point of differing interpretations grasshopper. Yours and mine.

The light of the moon a blood red color vs. the moon turning to blood - perfectly allowable within the scope of biblical Hebrew and Greaco/Hebrew expressions for them to be equivalent.

e.g. Song of Solomon 6:6 Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing...
You have beautiful white teeth.

I want to stay well, a prayer to that end would be appreciated.

Thanks
HankD