Mid Trib Rapture

Jewish wedding analogy pt. 2.

As you know, we Christians are the bride of Christ.

It is in the context of the Hebrew wedding custom that this passage must be understood. The specific reference is in section 9 below, but I typed out the entire relevant sections from "The Seven Festivals of the Messiah" by Edward Chumney Copyright 1994-occasional page copying for personal or group study approved. Because there are some interesting things to see when you consider Scripture in the light of a marriage covenant.

There are 12 steps in the Hebrew wedding ceremony.

1. The selection of the bride.
The bride was usually chosen by the Father of the bridegroom. The Father would send his trusted servant, known as the agent of the Father, to search out the bride. An excellent example of this can be seen in Genesis 24.
In this chapter, Abraham (a type of God the Father) wishes to secure a bride for Isaac (a type of Messiah {Christ})and sends his servant Eliezer (a type of the Holy Spirit { Ruach HaKodesh}) to do this task (Gen 24:2-4; 15:2).
It is the role of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) to convict the world of sin and lead them to God (John 16:7-8).Just as the bride was usually chosen by the Father of the bridegroom, so the believers in Messiah are chosen by God (John 15:16). The bridegroom chose the bride and lavished his love upon her and she returned his love. This can be seen in Ephesians 5:25, as it is written, "Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it." In Genesis 24 Rebekah (Rivkah) consented to marry Isaac (Yitzchak) even before she ever met him. Today, the believers in the Messiah Yeshua consent to become the bride of Messiah even though we have never seen Him.
1st Peter 1:8 speaks of this, as it is written, "Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now you see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory."

2. A bride price was established.
A price would have to be paid for the bride.
The agreed upon price was called a mohar in Hebrew. Yeshua, being our bridegroom, paid a very high price for His bride, the body of believers. The price He paid was His life.
Yeshua considered the price He had to pay for His bride before His death as He went to the Garden of Gethsemane to pray in Matthew 26:39,as it is written, "And He went a little farther, and fell flat on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." Yeshua was in essence saying, "Father,You have chosen this bride and I have agreed to the terms, but do you realize the price that is being asked for her?" Our mohar, our bride price, was His life. 1St Peter 1:18-19 says, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."

In 1st Corinthians 6:20 it is written, "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
3. The Bride and Groom are betrothed to each other.
This is the first stage of marriage known as kiddushin. I have spoken at length about betrothal in chapter 6, concerning Shavuot.
(Text from chapter 6 below) Remember, betrothal is the first of two steps in the marriage process. Betrothal in Hebrew is known as erusin or kiddushin. Betrothal legally binds the bride and the groom together in a marriage contract, except they do not physically live together. Historically, God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt. Sinai (Jeremiah 2:2;Hosea 2:19-20). Whenever you accept the Messiah into your heart and life, you become betrothed to Him while living on the earth.

4. A written document is drawn up, known as a ketubah. This betrothal contract is called in Hebrew, a shitre erusin.
The ketubah is the marriage contract that states the bride price, the promises of the groom, and the rights of the bride. The word ketubah means "that which is written." The groom promised to work for her, to honor, support, and maintain her in truth, to provide food, clothing, and necessities, and to live together with her as husband and wife.

The ketubah was the unalienable right of the bride. The ketubah must be executed and signed prior to the wedding ceremony. The
bible is the believer's ketubah . All the promises that God provided for the believers in Messiah are legally ours, as it is written in 2nd Corinthians 1:20," For all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in Him Amen..."

5.The bride must give her consent. (sorry Calvinists)
As we saw in chapter 6 (below), which dealt with Shavuot (Pentecost),God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt.Sinai as stated in Jeremiah 2:2. Israel consented to the marriage proposal from God and said, "I do," as it is written in Exodus24:3. Likewise, the personal application (halacha) to those who desire the Messiah to come into their hearts and lives is to accept His invitation to do so by faith (emunah),as it is written in Romans 10:8-10:

"What, then, does it say? The word is near you in your mouth and in your heart: that is the word about trust( emunah) which we proclaim, namely, that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that god raised Him from the dead, you will be delivered. For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgements and thus continues towards deliverance (Romans 10:8-10 Jewish New Testament version).

So even today, to become the bride of Messiah you must still say "I do" to Him.

6. Gifts were given to the bride and a cup called the cup of the covenant was shared between the bride and groom.

The rite of betrothal (erusin) is completed when the groom gives something of value to the bride and she accepts it. The gift most often given today is the ring. When the groom places the ring on the bride's finger, the rite of betrothal is completed. This completed rite is known in the Hebrew as kiddushin, which means "sanctification."

The gifts to the bride are symbols of love, commitment, and loyalty. The gift God gives to those who accept the Messiah is the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) (John 14:26; 15:26-27;Acts 2:38;2 Corinthians 1;21-22).

When Yeshua ascended to heaven, He gave gifts to men(Ephesians 4:7-8).These gifts included righteousness(Romans 5:17-18),eternal life(Romans 6:23),grace (Romans 5:12,14-15),faith(Ephesians 2:8-9,and other spiritual gifts(1 Corinthians 12:1,4). These included wisdom, knowledge,healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, tongues, and interpretation of tongues(1 Corinthians 12:8-11),as well as the gifts of helps and administration(1 Corinthians 12:28).

In addition, at this time the cup of the covenant was shared and sealed between the bride and the groom with the drinking of the wine. In doing so, the couple drinks from a common cup. The cup is first given to the groom to sip, and then is given to the bride.

This cup, known as the cup of the covenant is spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33,as it is written, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, i will put my law in their inward parts, and write
it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33
Yeshua spoke of the cup of the New Covenant in Luke 22:20

7. The bride had a mikvah (water immersion), which is a ritual of cleansing.
Mikvah is a Hebrew word that means "pool" or "body of water." Mikvah is a ceremonial act of purification by the immersion in water. Indicates a separation from a former way to a new way. In the case of marriage, it indicates leaving an old life for a new life with your spouse (Genesis 2:23-24;Ephesians 5:31).

Immersing in the mikvah is considered spiritual rebirth. The reason is that a mikvah has the power to change a person completely. Concerning the marriage to Israel at Mt.Sinai, God said in Ezekiel 16:8-9,as it is written,"...I sware unto thee, and entered into covenant with thee...and thou becamest Mine. Then washed I thee with water..." The washing, or immersion here refers to that of Israel before the people received the Torah when God betrothed Himself to Israel at Mt.Sinai (Exodus 19:14-15).Yeshua spoke to the Pharisee, Nicodemus, that he must be born anew (immersed) to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:1-7)The believers in the Messiah are to be immersed in the name of Yeshua (Acts 19:4). The Holy Spirit is the immerser of God (Luke 3:16;Acts 1:5;11:15-16).

8.The bridegroom departed, going back to his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber.
At this point the bridegroom leaves for his father's house to prepare the bridal chamber for his bride. It was understood to be the man's duty to go away to be with his father, build a house, and prepare for the eventual wedding. Before he goes, though, he will make a statement to the bride. "I go to prepare a place for you; if I go, I will return again to you."
This is the same statement Yeshua made in John 14:1-3 before He went to His father's house in heaven, as it is written:

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:1-3

9. The bride was consecrated and set apart for a period of time while the bridegroom was away building the house.

Before the bridegroom could go and get the bride, the groom's father had to be satisfied that every preparation had been made by the son. Only then could he give permission to the son to go and get the bride. In other words, while the bridegroom was working on the bridal chamber, it was the father who "okayed" the final bridal chamber. The bridegroom did not know when his father would declare the bridal chamber fit and send him to go get his bride. This is exactly what Yeshua is referring to in Mark 13:32-37
(and Matthew 24:36).

Meanwhile the bride was to wait eagerly for the return of the bridegroom. In the mind of the bride, the bridegroom could come at any time, even in the middle of the night or at midnight. Therefore she had to be ready at all times. Yeshua referred to this in Mark 13:32-37 and Matthew 25:1-13. While waiting eagerly for her bridegroom to come, the bride had to have thought to herself, "Is he really coming back for me? Is he really going to keep his word?" This was the thought that Peter answered in 2nd Peter 3:1-13.

10. The bridegroom would return with a shout, "Behold ,the bridegroom comes" and the sound of the ram's horn(shofar)
would be blown.

The time of the return of the bridegroom was usually at midnight. When the bridegroom did come, he came with a shout(Matthew 25:6) and with the blowing of a shofar (trumpet)(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17;Revelation 4:1). The marriage between the bride and groom will take place under the chupah or wedding canopy. Since Heaven is a type of chupah, we can see that when Yeshua gives a shout for His bride, accompanied by the blowing of the shofar (trumpet), the marriage between Yeshua and His bride will take place in heaven.

The marriage ceremony will have a sacred procession. for this reason, the bridegroom(Yeshua)will be led to the chupah first. When the bridegroom approaches the chupah , the cantor chants, "Blessed is he who comes." "Blessed is he who comes" is an idiomatic expression meaning "welcome."
Yeshua said that he would not return for His bride until these words were said(Matthew 23:39). The groom is greeted like a king under the chupah , which is heaven.

11. He would abduct his bride, usually in the middle of the night, to go to the bridal chamber where the marriage would be consummated. This is the full marriage, known in Hebrew as nesu'in.
The bride and groom will go to the wedding chamber, or chadar in Hebrew, where the marriage will be consummated. They will stay in that wedding chamber for seven days, or a week. At the end of the seven days, the bride and groom will come out from the wedding chamber. This can be seen in Joel 2:16.

The word week in Hebrew is shavuah. It means a "seven." It can mean seven days or seven years. An example of the Hebrew word for week ( shavuah) meaning seven years can be found in Daniel 9:24,as it is written, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."and in 9:27,"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."

The week referred to in Daniel 9:27is known to bible believers as the tribulation period. The Jewish people understand this time to be the birthpangs of the Messiah known in Hebrew eschatology as the Chevlai shel Mashiach.
This is taken from Jeremiah30:5-7. From this we can see that the believers in the Messiah will be with the Messiah in heaven for His wedding while the earth will be experiencing the seven year tribulation period, or the Chevlai shel Mashiach.

12. Finally, there would be a marriage supper for all the guests invited by the father of the bridegroom.

The bride and groom would be in the bridal chamber for seven days. When the bride and the groom initially went into the wedding chamber, the friend of the bridegroom stood outside the door. All the assembled guests of the wedding gathered outside, waiting for the friend of the bridegroom to announce the consummation of the marriage, which was relayed to him by the groom. John the Baptist referred to this in John 3:29. At this signal, great rejoicing broke forth (John 3:29).

The marriage was consummated on the first night (Genesis 29:23). The bloodstained linen from this night was preserved. It was proof of the bride's virginity (Deuteronomy 22:13-21).
On the wedding day, the bridegroom is seen as a king and the bride as a queen. During the consummation of the marriage, the bridegroom (Yeshua) will be crowned King over all the earth and the bride (the believers in Yeshua, the Messiah) will live with Him and rule with Him forever. The crowning of the King and the marriage can be seen in Isaiah 62:3-7. At the end of the week (seven year tribulation, or birth-pangs of the Messiah), the marriage supper will take place. After the marriage the bride and Groom will return to earth. Only the invited guests of the Father of the Groom (God the Father) will be present at the banquet meal. This can be seen in Revelation 19:7-16 and 20:4. Yeshua spoke of the marriage supper and the banquet in Luke 12:35-38 and Matthew 8:11.

 

Partial Rapture

For a straight forward no nonsense study of the Partial Rapture (I have never liked that title, I prefer and have always called it the Conditional Rapture) my book The Partial Rapture "Theory" Explained was released in February 2008. It is also documented in the scripture as the first "theory" taught, if not the only from which Paul sites. The true partial Rapture is not based on works and has nothing to do with a fall back to legalism. It is based on a faithful spiritual fellowship with the Father through our Bridegroom Jesus Christ The Son. Works are a byproduct and the result of faithfulness. Also, the scripture is quite clear, when allowed to explain itself, that the Rapture, The Gathering, or the Caught Up event is Pre-Tribulational. But all Pre-Trib passages point to Conditions connected to the event. site, Revelation 2:18-22

 

Near as I can get from another board where there were several, there was a man named Rosenthal (you can Google it) who wanted to find a "compromise" position between the valid Christian pretrib and the also valid Jewish postrib positions. He settled first on Rev 7:9 as being Christians (nations, tongues,...) who were taken out when "wonders" appear in the heavens (equates Mt 24:29 with Rev 6:13-15, the 6th seal).

His was actually called the "Prewrath" position because it avoided the wrath of God (which 1Thes 5:9 disallows). His claim also was that we would have to see AC (2Thes 2:3) which he takes as the midtrib form of AC, NOT the AC who signs the 7 yr covenant.

It's a pretty seductive notion among those who aren't well grounded in the pretrib case. But for one thing, it denies Israel the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27. It also claims that no one is saved after the rapture and so has the same issues as postribbers do as to who occupies the MK. It has a terrible problem with timing as it sees all the trumpets as GT and the vials as postrib (the 45 days mentioned in Dan 12:11-13).

there's more. I'll get to it as the thread develops.

skypair

 

Welcome to BB, RevJWW. :wavey: Prophecy has been my great passion these past 18 years and I look forward to our give and take on each thought.

For instance, partial rapture. Some say I believe in a partial rapture because I do see 5 virgins taken and 5 left behind (corresponding to all Smyrna and Philly taken -- all Thyatira and Laodicea left -- and parts of the others either going or staying). But this is NOT partial rapture because none of the foolish virgins who are left behind believe on Christ. They are merely church-goers.

Well, with that thought, I gotta head out for a beautiful game of golf down here in your neighboring Longview, TX. :thumbs:

skypair

 

"Partial rapture" of a thread, anyway!

Welcome to the BB. :wavey:

And congratulations, as well.

You now currently have the honor of "rapturing" the longest-dead thread, I've noticed, since I've been on the BB. I've only been around here for 2 yr, 3 1/2 mos. and about 6500 'posts' (I've lost BB 'credit' for more than 300 in various 'reformattings').

You have managed to resurrect a thread of 2 years, 5 mo., and counting. And in your first post, no less. Now that's simply amazing - spelled "A-m-a-z-i-n-g"! Isn't it??

Or is that word more correctly spelled as "A-g-e-n-d-a"?!?

Ed

 

There needs to be a way for these archival files to be locked. I'd say lockem up after 18 months from the new year. :thumbs:

 

Amen my friend, there are too many lost souls out there needing the gospel of Jesus Christ preached. We need to heed the Great Commission, to 1. Bring others to Christ 2. Baptize them 3. Then disciple them If w are following htis then we have very little time to condemn and disassociate others over secondary issues.

 

I really have absolutely no problem with the "resurrecting" of these threads, per se. But I do often find the agendae ensconced therein, wryly amusing, to say the least. This is a good example, IMO. However, the short stay of RevJWWhiteJr as the poster who has resurrected the oldest thread of which I'm aware, lasted all of about an hour to me, and was, in fact, even incorrectly noted by me. Incidentally, this thread languished for 2 yr, 5 mos and counting, not 2 yr. 3 1/2 mos, as I previously posted. My apologies for this factual mistake, that I posted in error.

My apologies also (if I need to) to RevJWWhiteJr. Incidentally, I noticed you live in Atlanta. A possibility (although nowhere close to a definite one, IMO), that you could be driving on a new "NAFTA" and/or interstate road through that area in 10 years, from Texarkana, to both Houston (or Shreveport, which is more definite), if the Lord does not return first.

Incidentally, I have no problem, in the least, with this thread, although I do not necessarily agree with all that anyone has posted in it. There is none of the animosity I often see on the BB here, in this one, and I respect that.

The vigilant eye of our friend webdog, had already noted a very good thread, IMO,about Baptist Colleges that was 'dead' for 4yr, 8 1/2 mos, and counting, which he had resurrected, here, a day earlier. I simply hadn't yet seen it.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=2701&page=9

This thread on colleges is a worthwhile thread, as is this one, both being granted only IMO. I still find this resurrecting of old threads, wryly amusing.

The Moderators and Administrators can and do often archive threads into "Read only" mode, when they feel it is necessary. Personally, I'm glad this was not done, in either of these instance.

Ed

 

By locking up, do you mean simply make them read-only? I'd agree.
Either that, or the moderator can simply close them to further posts.

 

Welcome to the BB. :wavey:

Outta' curiosity, why are you 'associating' about one of these "secondary issues", then?? :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

They can do either, although personally, I'd 'argue' that that is not warranted, here.

Better a "cold thread" that someone "warms up" a little, than one where the posters are all "hot under the collar" and the Mods need to "lock it down", so everyone has to "cool it", and "cool down", for a while. IMO only, of course. :thumbs:

Ed

 

Sense Ed says this thread is viable then I offer my thoughts on it's subject here.

Where in all of scripture does it say that anyone, from Adam to Melvin (Palatka51) has been saved by keeping the law? In fact even Jesus said that there is none good but the Father.

So why do advocates of a "pre-trib" resurrection state that the Jew and Gentile "left behind" will be saved by sacrifice and keeping of the law? Salvation has always been by "Grace through Faith." Once grace and faith is removed no flesh is saved, none, period. It is the Holy Spirit that causes men to keep his way before God. It is agreed that the Holy Spirit is removed with the Church. If then the Church is removed it will be known by the world that many are missing. Many will be aware of what has happened. Faith too will have departed because fear will reign. "They will call onto the rocks to fall on them"(forgive paraphrase). God sets an angel to preach the gospel but no one repents. Again God is requiring repentance not sacrifice. The thing that He has always required of men. God never changes. He is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. He required repentance then, today and will tomorrow.

To have a "rapture" before tribulation just does not work according to scripture. You have to advocate a 2nd resurrection event. As it pertains to Saints there can only be one, period. Scripture says and pronounces woe unto them that partake in the 2nd resurrection. This 2nd event is death, Hell and the grave to be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire.

A post tribulation pre-wrath stance has scriptural merit. Mid-trib is a misnomer. Everyone equates tribulation with wrath. It is not. Tribulation of the Saints, Wrath of God are not the same. Being "saved from wrath" is scriptural and accepted by a pre-wrath resurrection stance.

 

I made no mention of not associating through discussion. I view secondary issues as well worth discussion. I am simply stating we need to get past the point that when we agree on salvation by grace which makes us brothers then we must go forward in love not disassociation. Paul is very clear to the church at Rome that we do not draw in others simply to argue or to condemn when they do not agree with us. We let God reveal His truth to them. Romans 12:3 and 14:1.

 

BTW, thank you for the welcome it looks to be an interesting place to learn.

 

The Conditional (Partial) Rapture

To the group. I counted three welcomes, two undecided, and three “this thread should have been locked”.

Thank you for the warm welcome (of sorts). I had no intention of resurrecting anything nor had I intended to reopen old wounds. I simply thought I had found an avenue of discussion and communication for my thoughts and beliefs having lost my former means in the outside world. The return of the Lord Jesus Christ (his second appearance {Heb 9:28} to them that look for him) has been my main course of study as well as my passion for my entire adult life. I myself do not consider it a secondary issue, as from my perspective nor did Paul, having written a great deal of information on the subject. If there is no interest here to discuss the return of our Bridegroom (the singular most spectacular event to be witnessed by the Bride), we can shake hands, hug necks, someone can show me to the door of this string and I will be on my way, keeping my opinion to myself and will see all of you in others as the opportunity arises. I do not wish to be a burden (as I am quite familiar with the process). It may be that this subject has wore itself out here as it has done in the eyes of the Church as a whole. That is unfortunate since it is the most fascinating subject in the scripture (short of God’s person himself) and the next event to be experienced by all, in some form, on God’s time table and plan of creation. In closing this post, I will leave you with this work of old. Enjoy or other at your own leisure.

Troubled Day
There’s a time that is approaching, mankind must be made aware,
All life will stand in danger, the cloud of evil all will bare.

Darkness like the plague of Egypt, will be felt throughout the world,
Every camp caught up in turmoil, every tribe shook to their core.

All creation will give a shudder, cold chills will clinch the spine,
As the day, that is approaching, takes its place at the end of time.

The land will reek in misery, and BEG to be relieved,
But mercy will have alluded her, as will peace forsake her seed.

It will seem as God’s forsaking of, the creation of his hand,
His mirror image left to fiend for itself off a desolate land.

Degradation will fill the city, with a stench rising up on high,
The like not seen since the time of old, when fire fell from the sky.

The evil, unabated, will, indwell the son’s of man,
To the horror of God’s people, forced to flee with every clan.

This trouble is like no other, in past or future tense,
Signs of the times engulf the world who is blind to the sacred sense.

Refusing to heed the warnings, they swagger toward their demise,
Histories all time greatest horrors rise, from the pit to claim their prize.

That day will have no equal, events never seen before,
Pure undiluted evil, left, unchecked upon the world.

Since about 1990 the Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching, even though still the prominent “theory”, has been losing ground to all other beliefs proportionately. If an escape of this coming time is even possible, it utterly confuses me why anyone would not wish to investigate that possibility. For the past 33 years, that has been my task. May you all keep yourself safe in God’s will. RevJW.

 

Amen!! But we have a bunch here who are amil -- who need what you and I know -- don't "dip" (into Revelations, that is) :laugh:

No -- most here are fascinated with Calvinism. But you and I could get something going. TCGreek and webdog might jump in. We might "generate enough heat" that BB would start an "Eschatology" forum. I know -- that seems a little "wild" for a Baptist Board, doesn't it?

If I hadn't got "booted" off RaptureReady.com (they went "postrib" BTW), I would probably still be trying to prepare the saints for what can't be far away at all!

I hope you won't be discouraged. Start us a new thread on your thoughts. I'll be 'on board' with you! raying:

skypair

 

Hadn't thought of it that way. Makes sense. Actually, my memory is such that I don't even remember the threadd and am halfway through reading them before I notice the posting dates--or see a post by somebody who's been banned.

 

Palatka51: //So why do advocates of a "pre-trib" resurrection state that the Jew and Gentile "left behind" will be saved by sacrifice and keeping of the law?//

No pre-trib resurrection1/rapture1 believer that I know says that those 'left behind' will be saved by animal sacrifice or keeping of the law. So your point flounders being based on something not said.

According to my understanding of the pre-tribulation rapture2 and related eschatological TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE: in the church age (now, started on the day of Pentacost, ends at the pre-trib rapture2) mostly gentiles /but some messanic Jews/ are saved when they declare Jesus is Lord while believing that God raised Jesus from the dead. During the Tribulation Period Judgement Jews will be saved by saved when they declare Jesus is Lord while believing that God raised Jesus from the dead (in Jewish view: when Jesus is received as Messiah /God's anointed one/ while believing that God raised Jesus from the dead).


resurrection1 - the raising from the dead (with new body) of people done by Jesus
rapture1 - like resurrection1 but with living people (with new body)

resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed closely by a rapture1 at the end of the 70th week of Daniel
rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed closely by a rapture1 at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel

 

Melvin,

Perhaps I can explain some misconceptions you seem to have.

In the tribulation, the Jews will render sacrifices while still in UNBELIEF. Converts to the one true faith in Christ/God will know better. Then, in the kingdom that follows, sacrifices will be a "remembrance" (much as our observation of communion -- "this do in remembrance...") DISassociated with cleansing from sin.

Untrue. The indwelling Holy Spirit is removed. A good comparison would be a possessing demon. When that demon's "host" dies, the demon is chained in the pit. That doesn't get rid of all the demons who still remain as spirits -- just the ones who are bound until the tribulation's 5th trumpet.

You are mixing two unrelated passages here. Yes, in one place it says no one repents, meaning at that time -- the time of the 6th trumpet, Rev 9:20. But later (Rev 14) in the GT, the angels offer the gospel and John is told to write "blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth..." (14:13). And, indeed, Rev 7:9 tells us of these who "come out of GT."

As Ed will try to explain to you, there is a "resurrection event" for the Spirit-indwelt believers called the rapture. There are 3 of them (1Cor 15:23-24): 1) Christ the firstfruits, 2) "them that are His at His coming" in the air (church age believers - 1Thes 4:17) and 3) "then shall He deliver up His kingdom to the Father" (MK age believers flying from the earth WITH Christ on His GWT - Rev 20:11)

Now as to OT and trib believers (NONE indwelt yet), there is one "resurrection event" and it is to the earth and the MK of Messiah (Psa 50:3-5, Isa 26:19-21, Dan 12:2, etc.).

But being "saved from wrath" is only one of the issues involved in the determination. I'm familiar with prewrath but it fails on many fronts, most notably the issue of the 70th week of Daniel.

skypair

 

I appreciate the supposed clarifications, however I am not convinced. There are too many scriptures in conflict with a pretrib view. All fits with a pre-wrath rapture.
2 Thes 2:1-12
Verse 3 in particular; 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I don't see a people that have a desire for the things of God in this last generation. I see a Church that must endure judgment/tribulation.
1Peter 2:11&12
11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
This visitation is tribulation of the Saints. Therefore judgment will begin at the house of God.
1 Peter 4:17-19
17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Tribulation = judgment must begin at the house of God & righteous scarcely be saved
Wrath = what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? and where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear

Direct and total contradiction to Rev 20:11-15
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The only place in scripture that speaks of a second resurrection. It's purpose clearly is to deliver up all that is dead to be presented at The Great White Throne.

I pray that all of you are correct but the more I study the more solid it seems, that we will endure tribulation. So I beseech all that have read these words, Do not be surprised when sore persecution comes upon us. Remain strong and together we will see the Blessed hope of our faith, the Glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God.

Revelation 21:20&21
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.