Originally posted by TexasSky:
DHK - you posted "The Temple was the symbolic place of God's dwelling, God's presence. The church does not take the place of the Temple, so there is no comparison here. The temple of the New Testament is the body"
I'm not sure where you get the idea the Holy of Holies was the "symbolic" place of God's presence, I don't see anywhere it is called "symbolic" in the scripture.
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
--God does not actually dwell in temples of any kind. So if he did dwell in the Temple of the Old Testament, it had to be symbolic.
Both in the tabernacle and in the Temple that Solomon built there was, in the holy of holies, the ark. On the ark sat two cherubim which faced each other. Between those two cherubim was a space which symbolically represented the presence of God. It was there, upon the ark, that the shekinah glory descended. It was there where Zechariah was ministering to the Lord, that God spoke to him concerning John the Baptist, and he was struck dumb. It was there that the high priest, every year went and made an atonement for the sins of the people. There he met with God, as it were, to atone for the sins of the nation.
The Temple was the only place where God could be worshipped in the Jewish religion. It is not so in Christianity. The importance of the Temple in Judaism cannot be overstated.
I'll give you that one though, becuase I don't think that particular part of what you said is important to real debate - however........
I want to know where you feel God dwells today? And what you consider God's house to be?
Acts 17:24-25 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
"Christ in you, the hope of glory"
"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I but
Christ liveth in me.
"Ye are the Temple of the Holy Ghost."
"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Where does Christ (God) dwell--in the heart of every believer.
What does God need--Acts 17:25. He has need of nothing.
Does he dwell in churches or any buildings? NO!
He dwells in the hearts of believers.
Are there "houses of God" today? NO
We must not impose our western culture into the Bible. That is a mistake too many Christians do.
Remember that up until 250 A.D. there was no church building. Think about it. The first day of the church age, 3,000 were saved. A couple of days later 4,000 were saved. The church grew fast. Some historians say that the church in Jerusalem grew up to 100-150,000. Where would they meet. There were no places that would accomodate such a number. Where did Jesus preach the sermon on the mount? The people gathered in the open, on the fields, and smaller numbers gathered in houses. There were no church buildings. Don't impose your western culture into Scripture. There is no "God's house" in the New Testament. Early Christians met in the catacombs, a graveyard for Christians. You don't call it God's house. The concept is ridiculous.
Our church was first started in a Community Hall, as many churches are. I remember every Sunday morning we would come early and clean up the beer bottles, sweep up the cigarette butts, and other garbage. "
Oh, but this is the house of God!! Yeah, and beer was drunk, smoking was allowed, wild parties were held, bingos, and who knows what other ungodly activities went on in that Community Hall. But that is also where our church met. The "church" is the people, the assembly, not the place where the assembly meets. You won't find a church building in the Bible, nor the concept of a "house of God" in the Bible, except figuratively as in an illustration.
Christ said "you have made my house...." now - if the temple was just symbolic, it wasn't His house. If the house really is the dwelling place of Christ, then it IS His church - and yes, His church IS the body of believers.
You are very confused. The Temple was His house and will be in the Millennial Kingdom, a literal place from which he will rule.
Secondly I don't believe in the common conception of an invisible universal church as you describe. The word ekklesia (church) means assembly every time it is used in Scripture as it is translated church. It ought to be translated more accurately congregation or assembly. That is what the word means. The body of Christ, or the church is not universal. You cannot have an unassembled assembly. It is a contradiction of terms. Paul wrote to local churches all the time--the church at Corinth, the church at Philippi, the church at Ephesus, etc., not one universal church.
There is no house which is his church. The concept is foreign to the Bible. There are figures of speech that are similar that Paul uses to teach other lessons, but not in the way that you are suggesting.
If Christ is referring to His House, as HE says He is, why do you feel so strongly that we must not assume He is speaking to Christians today? Surely He still does not want His house to become a Den of Thieves.
Christ refers to the Old Testament Temple (destroyed in 70 A.D.) as a den of thieves. The only other thing he refers to--in the future tense is in Mat.16, where he says to Peter that he will build His church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. That statement (or promise) goes directly against what you are saying.
And while I give you that the building itself is not His house - if we are carrying on like cheats and thieves in the church building - His house did indeed become a den of thieves.
Get rid of your western culture. Go meet in a cemetary or somewhere else if buildings bother you. The early church never met in church buildings. They didn't have anything comparable to what you think should be called "the house of God." an unbiblical concept for this day and age.
DHK
