Baptism prior to the 1520s

Here is the Catholic "confession" of history and the Didache in complete agrement.

BELIEVERS Baptism!

However in here we will find "details" and there are some here who are allergic to "inconvenient details".

So with that understood...

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Didache on Baptism by Immersion:

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Matt, I think your post is great! BTW, your reference to the scriptures below tells it all.


Ro 6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ga 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

MEE

 

One more thing...I don't believe in Catholic water baptism. It's not Biblical!

MEE

 

Good analogy and good post!

 

As the "details" point out - they were fasting and praying and "Believing" long before Baptism in the early centuries.

One may well point out that this was "tradition" added beyond the NT text.

I am happy with the NT text "details" as well.

In either case - it is full water baptism of believers prior to the 16th century.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Where there Baptist before 1520's?

 

Matt:

I completed a fairly short but comprehensive paper on initiatory practices in the Church during the first three centuries. In it, I refer to and discuss every extant primary source on the subject. It's not perfect and it does not discuss theology (it is a purely secular scholarly piece) but it is thorough and well-referenced with copious footnotes.

It's a good point of reference and I think you'd be interested in reading it. If you're interested in having a copy, post a reply on this board and I'll email you a copy in Microsoft Word.

(Of course, if anyone else here would like a copy, they are welcome to it as well. Just let me know here or by email.)

In officio Agni,
Deacon's Son

 

Though we have shown "baptism prior to 1520" from BOTH the RC sources AND from ECF sources -- believers baptism by full water emersion.

How instructive.

 

Bob:

I'm a little confused about the above statement. There are PLENTY of primary sources from before 1520 with EXPLICIT instructions for baptism that DO NOT incude "full water emersion."

IOA,
Deacon's Son

 

Matt,

bmerr here. I could not agree more with the idea that modern ideas have supplanted the pattern so clearly laid out for us in the New Testament. You mentioned the "sinner's prayer". Did you know that nobody nowhere had ever heard of such a thing until 1950? I know some had the "mourner's bench" and other similar inventions, but the phrase "sinner's prayer" has it's origins within the lifetime of many of us members!

With this in mind, one wonders how it came to be so prevalent in so many churches as a means of becoming a Christian. In short, Billy Graham has been very effective in spreading his plan of salvation.

On the other hand, if one were to simply give what the Bible says about baptism from the pulpit of most any Baptist church, he would be all but thrown out of the assembly as a heretic. (Ask me how I know.)

There is a great need in the religious community to examine what we believe and why. Also, the need to abandon all man-made confessions of faith, church manuals, creed books, catechisms, etc., in favor of the Bible (specifically the New Testament) as our sole source of religious authority. Our very souls depend upon our adherence to the New Testament pattern of salvation, doctrine, and practice.

In Eph 4 Paul said there is "one faith". But what do we see when we view the religious world around us? Denominations (divisions) as far as the eye can see. Phrases such as "Christians of all faiths" are commonly used to apply to people who are supposed to only have "one faith".

The Biblical doctrine of baptism is but one of MANY areas which scream for a return to the New Testament as the sole authority.

I'm new here, so I'm not acquainted with you very well yet, but from what I've read so far, I commend you for your attitude toward the Scriptures. If I can be of any help to you at all, please feel free to contact me here or by e-mail, or however you wish.

In Christ,
bmerr

 

how do you know?

 

violet,

bmerr here. I spent about four years as a Southern Baptist, actively engaged in that religion, teaching Bible class to young adults and teens, and occasionally preaching.

At some point I made the commitment to let the Bible have the final say in all doctrinal matters, no matter who it set me against. A friend from my youth got me studying the subject of baptism in the New Testament, and I was shocked at how different Baptist doctrine was from the Bible.

My next opportunity to preach, I spoke on the subject, "What does the Bible say about the meaning and purpose of baptism in the New Testament".

These people who I had grown to love and admire listened in shocked silence as I read to them passages of Scripture that hadn't been heard from that pulpit in at least as many years as I had been there. At one point I opened up the floor for comments, and got some Scripture, and some Baptist doctrine, but mostly just cold stares from my friends and brothers.

At the invitation (which nobody responded to - imagine that!) I offered the same words as Peter did at the close of the first gospel sermon ever preached, to anyone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

It was a long walk to the back of the auditorium, and not too many offered to shake my hand. Later on, I was summoned to a meeting of the "pastor" and all the "deacons", where I was told that I could remain a member there, but I would not be permitted to preach or teach any more unless I retracted the contents of my sermon.

I told them that as long as the Bible kept saying what it said, I would not retract my statements. However, I refuse to be a spectator in any assembly of believers or "believers", and so I left.

I'm still friends with those I was close to, and cordial to the rest, but we don't see each other much anymore. The cost of truth can be high, but truth is well worth it.

In Christ,
bmerr

 

I agree that infant baptism was practiced prior to the 16th century and that other forms of baptism besides the NT form were also practiced prior to the 16th century.

My list of ECF sources and the RC historical survey quoting ECF sources shows that Full water baptism of believers-only was the starting point and that other ideas crept in over time and evolved "to the very different thing that it is today".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

Your little cut and paste from the Catholic Digest is a little deceptive. You merely added the little synopis that is found in the index; however, you cannot read the entire article to see exactly what "changes they are talking about". You are assuming that these are changes that would support your arguement.

As you state, "details"

Please provide the link where we can read the article in its entirity

 

You "claim" to know something about this article as IF I had misquoted it -- or simply taken (I don't know what) from then "index".

And then you ask to actually "SEE" IT -- so that you might back your accusation up with "actual fact"??

What a riot!!

 

Here is the post "again".

Please note that NOT ONLY does it tell you of the issue and the page in that issue for EACH section - it also points to the web link for CD.

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Didache on Baptism by Immersion:

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Bob,

Please help me out.

I clicked on your link and it didn't take me to the article.

It takes me to the homepage of Catholic Digest. So, I clicked under Back Issues and selected
June, 1999 and here is the only thing that comes up there is no place to read the article.


June 1999


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I Witnessed a Wedding at Cana
The wine smelled of sunshine, fruit, and flowers
By Patricia Kasten

Ok, it wasn't the weddding at Cana, but it was a wedding. And it was at Cana, in Galilee, in the Holy Land.

Our Wisconsin tour group was on the first stop of our pilgrimage. And just as the Evangelist said, "On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee" (Jn 2:1), we were on the third day of our journey. A stop at the Franciscan wedding church is common for pilgrim tours. Married couples often renew their vows in the 118-year-old church with its white towers and vaulted dome. That's what the dozen couples in our group planned on.

[Page 6]


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The Culinary Adventures of Nasr-ed-Din Hodja
A Turkish folk hero grazes his way through Turkey
By Kathleen Stauffer

By the time he scraped open the gate of the courtyard leading into his earthen home, Nasr-ed-Din Hodja's face bore a smile. He could smell all the wonderful foods his neighbor, the merchant Jemal Pasha, was serving at the party. Surely his neighbor would understand if he, Nasr-ed-Din, a friend all these years, came straight from working in his cabbage patch to the banquet. Why change his robe? Nasr-ed-Din saw no need for such formality, not today! His belly had spoken.

[Page 16]


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An Evening With St. Paul
By Bernard McDonagh

Though Turkey is today a Muslim country, such was not always the case. Indeed, for Christians, Turkey is of particular interest given its role as the cradle of early Christian evangelization efforts and the birthplace of St. Paul. As Christ had directed, the Apostles set forth from Jerusalem to build the Church.

[Page 25]


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Road to Christianity
Chicago Tribune

Not long after the Crucifixion of Jesus, the first Christians got into a shouting match over the nature of their faith. They lived in Jerusalem, the center of the Jewish world, and one faction felt that to be a follower of Christ still meant keeping kosher, just as their parents had. Others were just as convinced that believing in Jesus freed them from the religious code of their ancestors.

[Page 30]


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Baptism Comes Full Circle
Today's rite is much the same as it was in the Church's beginning.
By Bill Dodds

Like a masterpiece of art that, over time, has been touched up, varnished, and maybe even mishandled a bit, the rite of Baptism has undergone centuries of change. Tacking on a little here and dropping a bit there has never altered the essence of the sacrament itself, but by the Middle Ages, the rite had evolved into something ever different from that used by the early Christians. Today, however, the Church is returning to its roots. The modern rite of Baptism reflects much of the color and image of the original masterpiece.

[Page 42]


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When the Girls Took Over St. Columbkille
An early lesson in gender equality
By Sean Patrick

We boys were a pretty smug lot at St. Columbkille. Boys were altar servers. The boy's choir always had the starring role at Mass. Boys were school crossing guards. And boys enjoyed competitive football, baseball, and basketball, as well as a fearsome outdoor track and CYO boxing.

[Page 52]


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Even in Depression, God Is With You
One man's struggle has given him a mission to help others
By Patrick T. Reardon

It was August 23, 1995, and Father William Burke, pastor of St. Cajetan Catholic Church in Chicago, was having what he thought was a great year. Holy Week had gone well. And the school play, one of his favorite projects, had been a success.

On this particular Sunday, once Masses were done, the parish staff was going away for an important all-day meeting to grapple with the sort of problems, complexities, and questions that face every parish.

But Burke was distracted and tense.

[Page 58]


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Encounter in a Taxi
Small acts of kindness can work miracles of healing
From the book: Make Me An Instrument of Your Peace

Twenty years ago, I drove a cab for a living. It was a cowboy's life, a gambler's life, a life for someone who wanted no boss, constant movement, and the thrill of a dice roll every time a new passenger got in the cab.

What I didn't realize when I took the job was that it was also a ministry. Because I drove the night shift, my cab became a rolling confessional. Passengers climbed in, sat behind me in total anonymity, and told me of their lives.

[Page 67]


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Adventures in Priestly Garb
People's reactions to my clerical "uniform" can be interesting
The Tablet

I call them the "GAFAW" reactions. People tend to notice anyone who wears a uniform, like police officers, soldiers, or letter carriers. And priests are no exception.

Over the years, I've noted that the responses we priests receive are of five basic varieties, hence the "GAFAW" reactions: Guilt, Anger, Friendliness, Assistance, and Wonder.

[Page 72]


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When They Passed the Prayer Basket
Strangers suddenly became partners in prayer
By Richard Bauman

We were visitors at the parish, stopping for Mass during our vaction in Colorado Springs. Just before the Offertory, as the collection basket was passed to us, we deposited our contribution and passed it on. Then -- to our surprise -- came another basket.

Bigger than the first, it was filled with brightly colored slips of paper. Some people dropped in strips of paper; others took a piece.

[Page 85]


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Singing the Saints to Life
Tom Franzak's unique musical idea is now playing in parishes across the country
By Dana Mildebrath

Tom Franzak spends a lot of time driving to concerts, but not in a fancy tour bus. His 14-foot white van is nondescript, lacking even a bumper sticker. But the inside tells a far more colorful story: It's packed to the ceiling with musical instruments, a fully automated sound and light system, and a full stage set.

[Page 88]


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Faith Comes Alive in Los Angeles
Small groups turn passive churchgoers into committed Christians
America

Mario Fuentes is coordinator of Comunidades Eclesiales de Base (Basic Ecclesial Communities, or C.E.B. groups) at Dolores Mission Catholic Church in East Los Angeles. Working in small groups, C.E.B. members meet to worship and support a wide range of parish initiative. To be sure, this model of dealing with a community's immediate needs and concerns through small worship groups can work in any parish. Fuentes's story illustrates how faith can be put into action to promote community well-being and justice everywhere, regardless of how great or how small a community's challenges.

[Page 98]


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Ten Musts for Every Marriage
A Seattle couple has repackaged biblical wisdom for husbands and wives.
Home Life

Marital advice is as common as breath mints -- and lasts about as long. Everyone, from profesors to parents, seems to have the secret formula for a happy marriage. But eventually, superficial advice wears off.

[Page 105]


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A Gift of Tears and Laughter
My mother's humor and dignity amid loss amazes me.
By Mary Ann Warner

A month ago, I announced to Mom and Dad through a flood of tears that they would have to be separated after 56 years of marriage. She was to leave their lovely assisted-care apartment to move to a nursing home.

"It could be worse," Mom replied after a moment of reflection. "I could be a young person with a family to care for."

Both of my parents have a special way of looking at troubles and inconveniences as blessings and gifts. And they share those gifts. My parents have always been wonderful teachers.

[Page 109]


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Clara's Castellano Lesson
She was only a toddler, but she had something to teach me about overcoming fear.
Chrisian Science Monitor

I arrived in Argentina with 100 words of Spanish, a desire to learn, and unlimited confidence. Two days later, I was exhausted and discouraged. I had underestimated how different everything -- language, food, money, housing, and transportation -- would be. More important, I'd forgotten that learning requires trememdous energy.

[Page 115]


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Old Gold
San Jose Mercury News

You may think this is going to be one of those fish tales. Apparently some folks are prone to exaggeration when it comes to their relationships with nature's denizens of the deep. They fudge about the size, they double the weight. They flat-out lie about the number that got away.

But do they ever fabricate a fish's age?

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