God's civil law for today?

There are several threads going on about biblical Spirit led evangelism .
If God blesses these efforts worldwide or even just in the USA . .....would you like to see OT. civil laws instituted?
Give a scriptural reason for your response.....such as .....yes because scripture says, or no...because scripture says this.
Jesus completed the OT ceremonial laws concerning sacrifices of animals, and keeping feast days. We all agree on that.
But what about the civil laws?
You can offer your own understanding or a link to good articles, books or sermons on the topic.

Are you content to let the heathen suggest the laws we live under?

Are you for Sharia law?

Folks try to divide up the law into different parts icon but the scripture considers the law one indivisible entity.

The scripture declares

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


HankD

Iconoclast said:

There are several threads going on about biblical Spirit led evangelism .
If God blesses these efforts worldwide or even just in the USA . .....would you like to see OT. civil laws instituted?
Give a scriptural reason for your response.....such as .....yes because scripture says, or no...because scripture says this.
Jesus completed the OT ceremonial laws concerning sacrifices of animals, and keeping feast days. We all agree on that.
But what about the civil laws?
You can offer your own understanding or a link to good articles, books or sermons on the topic.

Click to expand...

No, as those laws were ONLY fo Israel under Old Covenant, and we now are under Grace!
OT civil laws will not work in a democracy/Republic form of government!

HankD said:

Folks try to divide up the law into different parts icon but the scripture considers the law one indivisible entity.

The scripture declares

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


HankD

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It is also interesting that Jesus became a curse for us for it is written "cursed is everyone who hangs upon a tree."

HankD said:

Folks try to divide up the law into different parts icon but the scripture considers the law one indivisible entity.

The scripture declares

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


HankD

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I understand what you post here Hank d...however....there was law before Mt Sinai....
Some suggest Jesus fulfilled or brought to completion those portions of the law dealing with animal sacrifice....but many of the civil commands have no direct fulfillment
Here from the book...Christian Reconstruction, what it Is,what it isn't pg101-

After a person comes to Christ the curse of the law is lifted.
Jesus became a curse for us and suffered the penalty for broken law{Isa53].
But now, through the agency of the holy Spirit. the redeemed sinner is willing and enabled to keep the law., although not perfectly[EZK 36:26,27]
this imperfect law keeping,however, does not condemn the Christian as it did prior to being saved by grace, although there may be temporal ramifications for disobedience.

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Yeshua1 said:

No, as those laws were ONLY fo Israel under Old Covenant, and we now are under Grace!
OT civil laws will not work in a democracy/Republic form of government!

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Where does scripture indicate this?

In other words....what law of man that is a good law, is not based on the ten commandments?

Where do you think men's law are superior to God' law?

Yes, God's law is perfect because scripture says it is

Iconoclast said:

I understand what you post here Hank d...however....there was law before Mt Sinai....
Some suggest Jesus fulfilled or brought to completion those portions of the law dealing with animal sacrifice....but many of the civil commands have no direct fulfillment
Here from the book...Christian Reconstruction, what it Is,what it isn't pg101-

Click to expand...

Again Iconoclast is there any scripture which divides the law into sections? No there is one Torah given by God.
If one fails in one point then one becomes guilty of the whole law given by the one and the same God.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

But we are not under the law but saved by grace apart from the works of the law and freed from the law and subsequently led of the Spirit not Moses.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The Spirit has never led me into sin. I get into that morass when I leave off following Him.
And then I fall back under the law with its thunder, lightning, fear and trembling,


HankD

JonShaff said:

Yes, God's law is perfect because scripture says it is

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7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
refreshing the soul.
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is pure,
enduring forever.
The decrees of the Lord are firm,
and all of them are righteous.

10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the honeycomb.
11 By them your servant is warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 But who can discern their own errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then I will be blameless,
innocent of great transgression.

14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer.

These words are still for today . They were not done away at the Cross.
I do not accept all of the reconstructionists arguments but I am intrigued when I read this for example'
2 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.

Admittedly the law is wonderful.

Do we keep the Sabbath, the seventh day?

HankD

HankD,
Hello Hank,

Again Iconoclast is there any scripture which divides the law into sections? No there is one Torah given by God.
If one fails in one point then one becomes guilty of the whole law given by the one and the same God.

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Yes Hank, there is....
Before Israel was a nation...law existed-
2 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: [torah]and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, [torah]

do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, [ten commandments]their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

But we are not under the law but saved by grace apart from the works of the law and freed from the law and subsequently led of the Spirit not Moses.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

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These speak of the law not being given as the means of salvation.

The Spirit has never led me into sin.

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What law would you be sinning against?

I get into that morass when I leave off following Him.
And then I fall back under the law with its thunder, lightning, fear and trembling,

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A Christian never has to go back to that....there is no more condemnation.

Icon, Please answer. Do we keep the Sabbath?
There is a death penalty associated with sabbath breaking.

Do we stone them to death who break it?

Are we under that law?

Break one, break them all.

HankD

Iconoclast said:

Where does scripture indicate this?

In other words....what law of man that is a good law, is not based on the ten commandments?

Where do you think men's law are superior to God' law?

Click to expand...

We were NOT formed/istituted by God, He did not have a Covenant with America as He had with Israel, and you were discussing civil. not moral law!

We would notbe under thoe civil lws, aswere just given to His OT nation/people!

HankD said:

Admittedly the law is wonderful.

Do we keep the Sabbath, the seventh day?

HankD

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We keep one day in 7 now...the LOrds day, not the mosaic sabbath, but the Lords day sabbath rest.

HankD said:

Admittedly the law is wonderful.

Do we keep the Sabbath, the seventh day?

HankD

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I think what is being confused here is the law of God (what is morally right based on God's own nature, with disobedience resulting in sin against God) and the Law given to Israel (which is not contrary to God's law). Paul makes this distinction several times. The Jew violating the Law (Torah) is equal to the Gentile who not being under the Law sins against God.

The difference is one of covenantal authority. The Law applied only to those within the Old Covenant in order to magnify sin and keep Israel until the arrival of the New Covenant. We were never under the Law because we were not a part of that covenant.

You are right that the Law cannot be broken. Paul even insists on this fact when confronting Peter. While it's moral laws eternally reflect God's nature, when we don we sin against God and not the Law.

Yeshua1 said:

We were NOT formed/istituted by God, He did not have a Covenant with America as He had with Israel, and you were discussing civil. not moral law!

We would not be under thoe civil lws, as were just given to His OT nation/people!

Click to expand...

We are not under Moses...Mosaic law....However...is man who is a rebel, in charge of himself? or does man who is a rebel need to be brought under God's control?

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Which one of these laws are still valid?
HOW MANY OF THESE LAWS DO YOU RECOGNIZE FROM THE NT?
lev19;
19 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.

3Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father

4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the Lord your God.


9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.
11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.


13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the Lord.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the Lord.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.


18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.



26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.


28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.
29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.


31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.


32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the Lord.

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.


35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.


36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the Lord.

Psalm 1King James Version (KJV)
1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2 But his delight is In the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

6 For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Iconoclast said:

Which one of these laws are still valid?
HOW MANY OF THESE LAWS DO YOU RECOGNIZE FROM THE NT?
lev19;
19 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,



3

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We are under a New Covenant. God's laws are eternal because they find their origin in an eternal and immutable God. But we are not "under the Law" because a New Covenant has arrived. We are to be Holy not because of the Law but because God is Holy and we are purchased with the blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:14-19).

The basis of judgment is God, not the Law (Torah). I think you may be speaking past some here (and Paul) as I don't see the difference between the Law and God's law that is present in Scripture obvious in your post (granted, it may just be me). Regardless, both are fulfilled in Christ.