Why are we so sure??

Yes -

Both the OT and the NT mention prophets with the actual gift of prophecy that are NOT canonical prophets -

Nathan in Davids time, Elisha etc -- no books written by them that are included in the Bible.

Philips daughters, and EVERYONE in 1Cor 14 "Each one has a prophecy".

The fact that someone IS a prophet - HAS the actual 1Cor 12 spiritual gift of prophecy does not make the canonical in OT or NT.

God says "IF There IS a prophet among you I WILL make Myself known to them in a dream or a vision". Numbers 6.

What passes for "gifts today" is seldom that direct.

But the question of the OP is still valid - EACH group says its views are the most accurate.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is what everyone says.

Did David say that about Nathan or was the "book of Nathan" in his Bible at the time?

 

This is how we know "OUR" Bible is correct...

Not having ever been anything but a Sinner, and then one saved by grace . . .

BUT, I know who I have believed and am persuaded [by faith] that He is able to
keep that which I have commited unto Him against that day!

In Hebrews it says BY FAITH we "know" not "think" "guess" or even "hope"

It says we "KNOW" by faith. For, without "faith" it is impossible...

Futhermore, His Word says, You shall "KNOW" the "TRUTH" and "the truth shall make you free"!!! And in another place Christ said: "Thy Word is Truth" and His Word again says "it is settled forever in Heaven" ... while men dicker between whether they should trust "science" or "faith" God has already declared His Word
"preserved" forever in Heaven...

He has promised His Word to His people... For the "just shall live" ONLY "by faith"
And "FAITH COMETH" ONLY "BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"

God is not some cosmic recluse incapable of making His will known... He has given His Word to His people, manifested by sovereign miracles, and as Christ said "thus saith the Lord" "it is written" and "let Him that hath ears to hear let him hear"

It is NOT our job to PROVE GOD's EXISTENCE - That's God's Holy Spirit's Work
It is NOT our job to PROVE GOD's WORD - it is simply for us to "look and live"

Did He not say to the crowd that if they would just be

"WILLING TO DO HIS WILL" You will [Here it is again...] "KNOW" "of the doctrine, whether it BE OF GOD [i.e if it is God's Word!] or whether I speak of myself!!

So when your back is to the wall and someone doubts the Bible or trys to add to it
simply declare His Word "preach the Word" and let God's Holy Spirit convince the "willing" "unhardened heart" that such is "TRUTH"
Let all the Devil's demons shudder in fear... For if a mere "earthen vessel" can speak forth His father's Word and it come forth in power of unbreakable truth as "it shall not be broken"... Then what then shall be their fate when the promised day when the Son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords speaks forth the Sword of His Spirit and Crushes the Serpents head!!


Sure men always try to "add to" and "take" away from God's Word - but in Revelation God has spoken already to their fate...

If God is able to deliver His Word, then HIS PEOPLE are sure to always have it....
Such is only the case for the 66 books of the Bible... God is not up in heaven with his settled Word saying "oh my" "oh my" how do I get them my 67th book or tell them that they have one "extra" by their own mistake.... We have a pure Word of God witnessed by Miracles, given by inspiration, revealed by God, and preserved forever for His people who without cannot walk by faith or claim the "whole counsel of God"... Away with the Heresy's of the Apocrapha that contradict the Word of God or likewise the Book of Moron and let us take by faith what God has manifestly given to His people and proven by faith, from faith to faith, that "His Word is Truth"!!

That is also why we need not go looking for better, older, "more accurate" texts of His Word! People Awake to righteousness either God gave and kept His Word for His people or He did not... Anything new cannot be His Word! His Word is Eternal and Settled, and given forever to His people!

Hope this helps..


By the way "Tamberine lady" for some reason I was led to read the posts that you started.. Many of them are very thoughtful and helpful threads, yet I fine an interesting distinction. They have a unique meekness not being dominated by your own thought processes... Not that anything one should preach should come from anything but God's Word originally... And yet I find the threads helpful and your responses faithful to your convictions yet "lady like" shall we say No offense.

In Sincerity and Truth,

Michael

P.S. Case in point here is a unique quote I appreciated from you:

"People who die and go to heaven do not pray for us after that. Neither does Mary, neither will the Pope.

We pray to the Father in Jesus name and Jesus intercedes for us to the Father. Anything else is false teaching and is heresy!!!

Peace,

Tam

Preach it! lol and yet that is the truth in Love, and unlike many posts started by others you obviously do not feel compelled to dominate every thread you start, yet you are willing to humbly stand for HIS Truth.

God bless...

 

Hence "our" Bible is correct because of the reasons above (please read)

However "our" Bible is thus the Canonical and Preserved:


BOOKS (66 to be exact) -- But books are empty without

AND

WORDS (all that God wrote - "jot and tittle")

ONCE "INSPIRED" that is, once "accurately recorded" - God had no great
difficulty also preserving them for us - He did not wait for men to later
FIND what is His Word!!!


Away with apocrapha and extra-biblical texts

Away with "prophets" who seek to add to Scripture

Away with the "Pope" who presumes to speak "ex cathedra" as
God's would-be representative on earth when there is only
one mediator between God and man - the MAN CHRIST JESUS -
OUR ADVOCATE!!! who is our LORD ON HIGH!

AND Away with MODERN translations that diminish the value of
the precise words and which seek to "scientificaly" "come up with"
"older and better manuscripts" from which to paraphrase from for
a new translation that they will copy right!! YUCK!


POINT ME TO THE FAITH - and the source of that faith - ONCE DELIVERED
to the saints and then NEVER LOST!!!

That is a high standard that Modern "prophets" and many of the so-called
"modern translations" can not gain say against!! Amen...


The Word of God was inspired and forever preserved as it is settled
forever in Heaven...


and Tamberline it is my pleasure to resurrect such a worth thread

 

If the question is "Bible or Koran" or "Bible or Vedas" etc - then I would argue for the supernatural affect that Christ has had on the world.

AD/BC... The 7 day week... Christianity growing immediately out of the condemnation and execution of it's founder - claiming in that same generation that he was resurrected.

There is no other book that provides a basis to account for this.

And then of course their is the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit.

If the question is one of "manuscripts" -- the Bible is a source text having early copies within a few decades of the autographs in the case of some NT texts. It is one of the most verified documents from ancient history that we have.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Good question, esp. since the early Church, when its councils decided in the fourth century which books to regard as Scripture, accepted the books of the Septuagint OT (not the 39-book canon of the unbelieving Pharisees they decided on in A.D. 90) as well as the 27 books we call the NT today. And these councils met centuries before there was a Roman Catholic Church.

{Incidentally, the Pharisees' canon actually consisted of 22 books, but we divide and count them differently today; those 22 are now counted as 39.}

 

If you're a protestant, you don't know because you don't accept the authority of tradition in the Church to determine the canon. Thus you may have too many books, or too few books. You'll never know for sure till you acknowledge that the Holy Spirit guides his Church and has done in all ages.

 

The saints of the first century - reading the letters of the Apostles - as they became available and reading the OT "scriptures" did not have to "Wait" for the RCC to come into existence before reading God's Word.

That has never been the case in all of time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As an Orthodox Christian, I agree that we don't need the RCC to determine the canon.

 

True

but those apostles also had letters that never made the cut. There were nearly over 100 letters and gospels in circulation at the time. The Saints of the first century were reading everything that was put into circulation even what is now considered the gnostic gospels.

We know by the writings of the early church leaders, early church theologians, etc that up until the time the official canon was established there were varying degrees of opinions of what was considered inspired and what was not inspired. There was never a unamious concensus until the councils of the 4th century.

Even after the Canon was established, there were arguments as to what belonged and did not belong.

Tell the whole truth Bob, not just the part that suits you.

 

Did make it to scripture does not equal "did not make it to church" or "was not inspired writing" or "not supposed to be read".

In 1 Cor 14 Paul says "EACH ONE has a revelation" speaking of the prophets in church. They did not close their ears refusing to hear them until they found out that NONE were going to make it into scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hence....

Tam says: The bible as we know it, the 66 books of inspired scripture, was first translated into the Latin Vulgate approximately, around 400 AD.

Then it was finally translated into english by Wycliffe about 1380, and then other versions followed etc.

My question is, . . . how did the "inspiration" come to these men who translated the bible?? If the spirit had stopped reveiling things to men,. . . how did they know which books to choose?

I'm sure I must have missed something!! Enlighten me, please!!


Humbly I write this, for my sis: Yes The Bible "as we know it" is the "Bible as given and kept by the people of God" - God has given to His people what we were to have else God failed... Yet He can do so and did Sovereignly and providentially preserving His Word in the Hands of His people apart from the "inspiration". No "re-inspiration" was necessary . . . Merely what Men did would be what "men" would do today if they wanted to translate the Bible into another language (for we are not in a position today to improve on the English Available translations -- for many reasons . . . but lest I digress) . . . What they would do is NOT "go looking" for "what books (or "words") God Has given but simply "look around them" What have God's people been given? And, what have they "spontaneously" (not of men, but of God) and "universally" (amongst all the saints of God in the Body of Christ) accepted and used as inspired of God...

Trust me, it was no harder for them in "400 AD" to "find" "which books" than it would be for you or I today ... lol It was just as self-evident - they have their criteria then, we have our criteria now... But what God has already done in giving it and what His people did when they received it was not "judged by men" but made "self-evident by God"

Hence, The perfection of God's Word and the recognition of God's Word, and Preservation of God's Word was nothing but God's Work - piece of cake...

And the "Just shall live by Faith" and "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

 

Furthermore...

Hence "our" Bible is correct because of the reasons stated by many men & women of faith above (please read them)

However "our" Bible is thus the Canonical and Preserved:


BOOKS (66 to be exact) -- But books are empty without

AND

WORDS (all that God wrote - "jot and tittle")

ONCE "INSPIRED" that is, once "accurately recorded" - God had no great
difficulty also preserving them for us - He did not wait for men to later
FIND what is His Word!!!


Away with apocrapha and extra-biblical texts

Away with "prophets" who seek to add to Scripture

Away with the "Pope" who presumes to speak "ex cathedra" as
God's would-be representative on earth when there is only
one mediator between God and man - the MAN CHRIST JESUS -
OUR ADVOCATE!!! who is our LORD ON HIGH!

AND Away with MODERN translations that diminish the value of
the precise words and which seek to "scientificaly" "come up with"
"older and better manuscripts" from which to paraphrase from for
a new translation that they will copy right!! YUCK!


POINT ME TO THE FAITH - and the source of that faith - ONCE DELIVERED
to the saints and then NEVER LOST!!!

That is a high standard that Modern "prophets" and many of the so-called
"modern translations" can not gain say against!! Amen...


The Word of God was inspired and forever preserved as it is settled
forever in Heaven...

 

ah, we got a KJV ONLY nut here:

Did you know that until 1827, the KJV contained the apocrypha?

Did you know that the American Bible Sociiety agreed to produce low cost Bibles if they were allowed not to include the Apocrypha?

Did you know that the American Bible Society recognized that RCC and EOC dolllars sit in the Bank just as productively as Dollars from other people?

Did you know the only reason the Aprocrypha was left out of Bibles after 1827 is that Satan said so?

 

Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so!

Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so!

And that Bible is worth defending against Catholics or any others that would attack its inspiration, authority, or infallibility -- or in your case Add to it...

And yes the K.J.V happens to be the best ENGLISH translation in the world, but it was only good because of the inspired, authoritative, and infallible Word of God preserved for God's people... People in other languages (in most cases) have to do with lesser quality works of translations, efforts of single men etc. but lest I digress the Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword only because we have it Today Amen!

Tam says: The bible as we know it, the 66 books of inspired scripture, was first translated into the Latin Vulgate approximately, around 400 AD.

Then it was finally translated into english by Wycliffe about 1380, and then other versions followed etc.

My question is, . . . how did the "inspiration" come to these men who translated the bible?? If the spirit had stopped reveiling things to men,. . . how did they know which books to choose?

I'm sure I must have missed something!! Enlighten me, please!!


Humbly I write this, for my sis: Yes The Bible "as we know it" is the "Bible as given and kept by the people of God" - God has given to His people what we were to have else God failed... Yet He can do so and did Sovereignly and providentially preserving His Word in the Hands of His people apart from the "inspiration". No "re-inspiration" was necessary . . . Merely what Men did would be what "men" would do today if they wanted to translate the Bible into another language (for we are not in a position today to improve on the English Available translations -- for many reasons . . . but lest I digress) . . . What they would do is NOT "go looking" for "what books (or "words") God Has given but simply "look around them" What have God's people been given? And, what have they "spontaneously" (not of men, but of God) and "universally" (amongst all the saints of God in the Body of Christ) accepted and used as inspired of God...

Trust me, it was no harder for them in "400 AD" to "find" "which books" than it would be for you or I today ... lol It was just as self-evident - they have their criteria then, we have our criteria now... But what God has already done in giving it and what His people did when they received it was not "judged by men" but made "self-evident by God"

Hence, The perfection of God's Word and the recognition of God's Word, and Preservation of God's Word was nothing but God's Work - piece of cake...

And the "Just shall live by Faith" and "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"



Furthermore...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hence "our" Bible is correct because of the reasons stated by many men & women of faith above (please read them)

However "our" Bible is thus the Canonical and Preserved:


BOOKS (66 to be exact) -- But books are empty without

AND

WORDS (all that God wrote - "jot and tittle")

ONCE "INSPIRED" that is, once "accurately recorded" - God had no great
difficulty also preserving them for us - He did not wait for men to later
FIND what is His Word!!!


Away with apocrapha and extra-biblical texts

Away with "prophets" who seek to add to Scripture

Away with the "Pope" who presumes to speak "ex cathedra" as
God's would-be representative on earth when there is only
one mediator between God and man - the MAN CHRIST JESUS -
OUR ADVOCATE!!! who is our LORD ON HIGH!

AND Away with MODERN translations that diminish the value of
the precise words and which seek to "scientificaly" "come up with"
"older and better manuscripts" from which to paraphrase from for
a new translation that they will copy right!! YUCK!


POINT ME TO THE FAITH - and the source of that faith - ONCE DELIVERED
to the saints and then NEVER LOST!!!

That is a high standard that Modern "prophets" and many of the so-called
"modern translations" can not gain say against!! Amen...


The Word of God was inspired and forever preserved as it is settled
forever in Heaven...

If you want to doubt we have it fine - but truth is God gave it! God preserved it!
I have it! Amen! - let God be true and every man or if so be "inquirers" a liar...

In Sincerity and Truth,

Apreacher4Him

 

Let us review:

Not having ever been anything but a Sinner, and then one saved by grace . . .

BUT, I know who I have believed and am persuaded [by faith] that He is able to
keep that which I have commited unto Him against that day!

In Hebrews it says BY FAITH we "know" not "think" "guess" or even "hope"

It says we "KNOW" by faith. For, without "faith" it is impossible...

Futhermore, His Word says, You shall "KNOW" the "TRUTH" and "the truth shall make you free"!!! And in another place Christ said: "Thy Word is Truth" and His Word again says "it is settled forever in Heaven" ... while men dicker between whether they should trust "science" or "faith" God has already declared His Word
"preserved" forever in Heaven...

He has promised His Word to His people... For the "just shall live" ONLY "by faith"
And "FAITH COMETH" ONLY "BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD"

God is not some cosmic recluse incapable of making His will known... He has given His Word to His people, manifested by sovereign miracles, and as Christ said "thus saith the Lord" "it is written" and "let Him that hath ears to hear let him hear"

It is NOT our job to PROVE GOD's EXISTENCE - That's God's Holy Spirit's Work
It is NOT our job to PROVE GOD's WORD - it is simply for us to "look and live"

Did He not say to the crowd that if they would just be

"WILLING TO DO HIS WILL" You will [Here it is again...] "KNOW" "of the doctrine, whether it BE OF GOD [i.e if it is God's Word!] or whether I speak of myself!!

So when your back is to the wall and someone doubts the Bible or trys to add to it
simply declare His Word "preach the Word" and let God's Holy Spirit convince the "willing" "unhardened heart" that such is "TRUTH"
Let all the Devil's demons shudder in fear... For if a mere "earthen vessel" can speak forth His father's Word and it come forth in power of unbreakable truth as "it shall not be broken"... Then what then shall be their fate when the promised day when the Son of God, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords speaks forth the Sword of His Spirit and Crushes the Serpents head!!


Sure men always try to "add to" and "take" away from God's Word - but in Revelation God has spoken already to their fate...

If God is able to deliver His Word, then HIS PEOPLE are sure to always have it....
Such is only the case for the 66 books of the Bible... God is not up in heaven with his settled Word saying "oh my" "oh my" how do I get them my 67th book or tell them that they have one "extra" by their own mistake.... We have a pure Word of God witnessed by Miracles, given by inspiration, revealed by God, and preserved forever for His people who without cannot walk by faith or claim the "whole counsel of God"... Away with the Heresy's of the Apocrapha that contradict the Word of God or likewise the Book of Moron and let us take by faith what God has manifestly given to His people and proven by faith, from faith to faith, that "His Word is Truth"!!

That is also why we need not go looking for better, older, "more accurate" texts of His Word! People Awake to righteousness either God gave and kept His Word for His people or He did not... Anything new cannot be His Word! His Word is Eternal and Settled, and given forever to His people!

Hope this helps..


By the way "Tamberine lady" for some reason I was led to read the posts that you started.. Many of them are very thoughtful and helpful threads, yet I fine an interesting distinction. They have a unique meekness not being dominated by your own thought processes... Not that anything one should preach should come from anything but God's Word originally... And yet I find the threads helpful and your responses faithful to your convictions yet "lady like" shall we say No offense.

In Sincerity and Truth,

Michael

P.S. Case in point here is a unique quote I appreciated from you:

"People who die and go to heaven do not pray for us after that. Neither does Mary, neither will the Pope.

We pray to the Father in Jesus name and Jesus intercedes for us to the Father. Anything else is false teaching and is heresy!!!

Peace,

Tam

Preach it! lol and yet that is the truth in Love, and unlike many posts started by others you obviously do not feel compelled to dominate every thread you start, yet you are willing to humbly stand for HIS Truth.

God bless...

 

He that will do His will shall know of the doctrine

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...

God's name is on the line if His Word fails us for He has exalted His Word
above His name because it is by His Word that His Name is made known!

His preservation is promised and sure for his Name is the Lord God!

Not one Word shall fail us...

Please consider the thoughts above I believe the Lord gave them to me to encourage me concerning the Scriptures and my faith...

May your faith be strengthened as well...

 

Amen.

Amen.

P.S. - Tamberline... I have cleared out some of my inbox...

May men recognize the preserved Word of God as Inspired of God instead of
trying to "produce it" or "find it" or "improve it" by some liberal, faithless "critical text"...

May God's people recognize what God has alway left them with and not doubt, nothing wavering....

 

To resolve the issue of the OP we have to "start with something".

Does the OP question presume that Christ is the Son of God, the gospel is correct and then asks "are the 66 books really the Bible" that goes with that religion?

OR is the OP about the idea "how do we know whether Christianity is true - or if it is Hinduism, Budhism, Islam...".

We need a starting point.

in Christ,

Bob