Believe, Then Receive

The subtle accusation here is we receive nothing but evil from God prior to believe and that grace is withheld from moment of your creation.

This nullifies regeneration and repentance. First regeneration implies a perfect prior status. Repentance implies doing something God never wanted you to do in the first place.

With this system you got going on a person can't repent never does, God doesn't forgive them at all he simply destroys them by replacing their will, mind and heart with some thing else.

James 1
13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

1 Corinthians 10
13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.


In other words God has provided perfectly ALL MEANS, ALL CAPABILITY and COMPLETE freedom for you not to sin.

When I sin it is MY FAULT not the fault of my conditions nor is it GOD's fault.


From the beginning the devil has delivered time and time again EXCUSES for you to sin.


From the beginning Satan taught ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.

Genesis 3
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!


From the beginning fallen man looks to BLAME GOD with conditions given:

12The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”


This is not the way folks. The way is REPENT, sin is your fault come clean. Its not because Jesus hasn't turned the right knob or God did not push the right button, Its not because God gave you a bad wife, or this parent, or that brother.

You sin because you wanted to sin and it is your fault. Christ wants everyone here to come clean, repent, have some trust in the truth with God. God is merciful. We cannot treat God as someone who we can't trust with the truth. He is a better friend to you then you can ever be for yourself.

God loves you and has high hopes for you, He has provided a perfect path for you believe it. Don't believe the LIES that he has yet to do anything for you and that its his fault you sin.

God did not give you THE EXCUSE. God gave you Jesus Christ which is THE TRUTH.

 

That would be a false accusation.

Romans 3:10-18 Paul is displaying the flaw of the Pharisees counting himself as one of them.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

That because they are chosen elect by God are they not better then the gentiles. He says no because the Jewish law puts the charge on both Jews and Gentiles.


Every charge against mankind listed by Jewish Law in Romans 3:10-18 is not true, it is false thanks to Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is one of us. For your charge to stick you have to stick it on Christ.

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

The charge that all have sinned and fall is a false charge because the redemption of Jesus. He saved us, especially the Jews because all those charges 10-18 are from Jewish perspective.

And we see the Jewish Law does not apply to Gentiles.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

^If God was God of the Jews ONLY then you have a case to stick us with the law that is quoted in romans 3:10-18.

There is nothing wrong with the Law. Suppose we are all Jews:

Romans 11
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

God puts all mankind in one basket.



2 Corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Notice what our ministry involves. You do not send ambassadors of your own country to your own country. You don't put a embassy of united states inside united states.

Our Job is to proclaim to THEM not to us. To proclaim to them to reconcile to God, and that God reconciling the world has not counted their trespasses against them, ie. ALL CHARGES ARE DROPPED.

You have no grounds to hold the charges of romans 3 over anyone. God has not condemned. If it read God has counted their trespasses against them then you have good grounds to claim total depravity and romans 3.

As it stands it is only your accusation not the Lord's. He did not send Christ to condemn anyone. But if you don't believe that, if you don't believe "God Saves" "God with us" that God is one of us, You already condemned yourself not believing his name.

This is the condemnation a person puts themselves in when they don't believe God Saves, They accuse everyone wrongly believing people love darkness rather then light, not because the person is evil but because they see good people doing evil deeds.

The devil has always been an accuser of brethren, The first thing he taught Adam and Eve is accusing God can't be trusted.

That God somehow is holding them back from a good thing by forbidding them to eat the fruit.

The same accusation is still ringing the same condemnation on God today, That God has held back a person's freedom to do the right thing and that the reason they can't do what is right is God's fault.

Jesus Christ said:

Luke 11
9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10“For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened. 11“Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12“Or if he is asked for an egg, he will not give him a scorpion, will he? 13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I know parents who feed their children even when their child doesn't ask for it. It would be a thousand times crueler to deny anyone the holy spirit and the full capacity to do what is right.


Brother if you think your the only one with the capacity to love God and neighbor, and being God would more likely grant your requests, where is your request that God give all on earth the holy spirit and the capacity?

You have a major problem with a soul like mine because I love every soul on earth as they were my own child, And if you don't believe my request will come through to my father because I am not worthy to make that request, I know someone , better then me, more loving then me, and more merciful and worthy then I am.

 

This is why i have this poster on ignore. They have no idea what they are speaking of. Unless you are born-again, you cannot see nor enter into the Kingdom of God. The carnal man Cannot receive the Things of God 1 Corinthians 2.

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual [words].

14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.

What you typed is foolishness to this poster, his pride is sending him on a rampage. He doesn't understand.

 

Net you believe a person is saved because God grants them a new heart with the capability to do good.

I'm quoting your first line:

"That works do not produce faith, but the inverse is true."

James 2 says:

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Works results with faith complete whole and perfected.

A incomplete or imperfect faith will not save you.

It literally says in the bible WORKS PRODUCES FAITH.

 

rampage?

Instead of providing a proper answer you just try to force others to be quiet.
You look for every dirty way to get rid of opposition.

Cause you sure the hell can't debate. What do you even come to a debate board for? You need to go back to "pat me on the back" land.

If you study scripture even what your opponent believes then you wouldn't be going home with tail between the legs in every thread.

1 peter 3
13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. 17For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.

 

I'm sure you hear James 2:24 thousands of times in a works vs faith debate, But that's not what I am quoting.

James 2
22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;


Not only does works produce faith, faith gets complete/perfected by works.

I am challenging your statement "That works do not produce faith, but the inverse is true."

I've provided scripture.




"The word "justified" here does not mean "to render one righteous," but "to show one is righteous." The sense of the passage is that faith will always be manifested (justified") by works, because works are all others have to see by."


No even Martin Luther who invented that train of thought wanted to get rid of the book of James precisely because it is geared again the idea of faith alone.


Do you believe in the existence of DEAD BODIES?

James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Its clear here the BODY = FAITH. The SPIRIT = WORKS.

Your saying the SPIRIT is the result of the BODY.

If you believe what you teach,
You should pile up a bunch of dead bodies in your church. That's a lot of faith. Those dead bodies are bound to create a spirit.


Doesn't a part of you wish he said WORKS is the Body and FAITH is the SPIRIT?

But its not so. WORKS is the SPIRIT, IT gives LIFE to the FAITH.

 

If your going to grab the phrase "by works faith was made complete", Then let us be as precise as possible. Lets start with the original Greek.

ἐκ τῶν ἔργων ἡ πίστις ἐτελειώθη



Just so I'm clear on your understanding.


26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Body = Faith.

SPIRIT = WORKS

Can a dead body produce life?

Cause if you say YES a dead body can produce spirit, then you start to sound consistent.

He already tells us FAITH is a DEAD BODY when its alone. Done Deal.


You agree with this verse that FAITH ALONE is a dead body?

 

"I've learned that the most unsure place to be in Soteriology is self-dependence."

Well that's a good thing, but faith alone claims self-dependence, I'll prove it.

It would be of no use if I have faith in cheeseburgers, or some pagan Baal, or have faith in a Jesus whom I would believe to be a tree outside, or Yaweh believing he is hatred or evil.


1 john 4

8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

The Good Work LOVE is required because it will be a misplaced faith without love.

One can believe oh yeah I believe in Jesus Christ the previous incarnation of HITLER. You wouldn't call that a faith in Christ at all.

Likewise it would be impossible you for you to have faith in Christ the actual who can only be known by the good work of Love.


20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

Notice they say you CANNOT Love God, There are requirements to even get there.


Even when God gives Christ. Why did he have to do anything at all? Couldn't God save everyone on faith alone himself. Even Jesus Christ did not practice faith alone, and he's our perfect example.

There is no preacher preaching works more then Jesus Christ.

 

This epistle is written to born again Christians who CAN love God because His Spirit dwells within them.

 

That's nice words. But you have no scripture.


I can point to the GOOD SAMARITIN which Jesus Christ chose as an example of loving God and Neighbor.

Under your structure he would be a damned Samaritan incapable of love.


Even Jesus Christ himself was accused of total depravity. Same logic the Pharisees are the chosen people are only capable of proper love of God.

Matthew 12
22Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute was brought to Jesus, and He healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw. 23All the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “This man cannot be the Son of David, can he?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27


If this defense works for Jesus, Then its the same defense applied to those you deem unqualified.


Any "GOOD" that's not from God is Evil, we call it like it is.

Jesus says it In same chapter:

33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

If I see you do evil works and its evil......I call it evil.


Matthew 7
11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!




Luke 7

28“I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” 29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.





Luke 7

36Now one of the Pharisees was requesting Him to dine with him, and He entered the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37And there was a woman in the city who was a sinner; and when she learned that He was reclining at the table in the Pharisee’s house, she brought an alabaster vial of perfume, 38and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet and anointing them with the perfume. 39Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet He would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching Him, that she is a sinner.”
40And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he replied, “Say it, Teacher.” 41“A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42“When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?” 43Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.” 44Turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45“You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46“You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Now this whole lesson is directed to the Pharisee Simon. It almost seems like Jesus is comparing and telling Simon there is something he ought to DO.

To be born again you have to have sins forgiven.


This system here would not fly under your structure:

“Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45“You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46“You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

She gets forgiven for what reason? FOR SHE LOVED MUCH.

Now our Pharisee friend here LOVES LITTLE. He still gets forgiven little.

Did the Pharisee who gets forgiven little have a TINY born again?



If the initiation is God's part in that God has a limited means of having to transplant a brain or heart. Why is Jesus even explaining this to the Pharisee? Why compare?

That is the most basic problem you guys have. forcing God to limited means.

You don't count Jesus here talking to the man as a valid means to come to repentance. Or when we proclaim the gospel you would say a person incapable of understanding the gospel.

Well one of you folks forgot to explain to Jesus that the Pharisee he's trying to teach can't understand him.