Water and Blood

Since God’s grace has appeared to all men and it is all from God and nothing from man, then all men would be saved, if this were really true. I presume from you comments that neither you nor I believe that, so something IS required from man, else all men would be saved.

The question is, what is required from man.

I am only repeating what God said through his word. Why do you not believe Jesus when he said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not, shall be condemned.”? Again, you could substitute, confession, repentance, or calling on the name of the Lord where you wrote baptism.

 

In Acts 11 it is on the UNBAPTIZED person that the Holy Spirit falls AND GIFTS are given.

In 1John 1:9 it is when we CONFESS that we are forgiven.

In Romans 10 it is when we BELIEVE with the heart and CONFESS with the mouth that we are "saved".

The point is clear in scripture - Baptism is the act of the saved, repentant, born-again believer in following Christ - in obedience.

It is an outward sign of an already existing - inward change.

It is evidence that the NEW CREATION (2Cor 5) already exists - and that having already been "justified" you HAVE "peace with God" Romans 5 and in that fellowship you are choosing to follow in obedience and undergo Baptism.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob - I am still curious at what point were the people in Acts 19 saved? What was their purpose of being re-baptized?

Also, at what point did the people on the day of Pentecost (as only recorded in Acts 2)receive remission of sins?

Finally, when did Saul of Tarsus have his sins washed away (Acts 9, Act 22, Act 26)?

I John 1:9 is for those who are already in the light, not those in darkness trying to get into the light.

In Romans 10 it is when we BELIEVE with the heart and CONFESS with the mouth that we are "saved". - This is not all that God has said on this subject. If it were, I would agree 100 percent with you. For example, Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Was Jesus giving conflicting instructions? No. Was Jesus kidding? No. Was Jesus mistaken? No. The truth never contradicts itself. These passages are in complete harmony with each other.

I appreciate your kind attitude and sincerity, attributes that we all need.

As I asked DHK, would you mind using the passages dealing with baptism to explain what happens in baptism. You are not going to discover the purpose of baptism by going to passages where it's not mentioned. You'll have to go to what the Bible says about baptism to determine the Bible doctrine of baptism. I have done this and nowhere is it described as an outward sign of an already existing inward change.

When I list them, there is no explaination necessary.

To list a few:

Mark 16:16 -He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (No commentary necessary)

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(No commentary necessary).

Rom 6:3-4 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (No commentary necessary)

Gal 3:26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (No commentary necessary)

Acts 22:16And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' (No commentary necessary)

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (No commentary necessary)

I Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (no commentary necessary)

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 So they said, " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved , you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. (No commentary necessary)

Any other verse that deals with salvation does not negate these verses, it only compliments them. No doubt we are children of God through faith. That is exactly what the bible teaches in Gal 3:26-27, listed above.

 

Wow, talk about mental gymnastics. 2 different modes of the same baptism? They were originally to be the same? What happened? Are they the same or different? Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a promise from Jesus, not a command. Water baptism was instructed to be carried out by man for the remission of sins.

In Acts 8:12But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. 14Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

What was the purpose of water baptism in this case?

So they received water baptism first then spriritual baptism? 2 Modes of the same baptism? Do you have any scripture to back up what you think concerning this? Right now, I am just trying to understand your position.

No arguements here. The scripture does teach this. I Cor 12:13, Acts 2:38, 41, 47.

Interesting concept. Any scriptures? When did this occur in Acts 2? How about Acts 8? How about Acts 16? When does this occur? When you accept Christ? Before water baptism? After Water baptism? Again, I am trying to understand what your position.

The question is how do we get into the light or into Christ or come in contact with his blood? Your answer was, "Through faith." I have laid out how the scriptures say we come in contact with the blood. I accept your answer based on God's definition of faith, doing what he said.

God's word is truth. The truth is what makes us free. Whether I accept it or reject it has no bearing on what is truth. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." Mark 16:16. Regardless of what anyone thinks or believes, this statement is still true. No, this is not all that the bible says about being saved, but it is certainly included. No other verse negates this verse. If you were in the crowd in Acts 2, even asking the question in verse 37, what would you have done to receive the remission of your sins? If asked the question in Acts 2:37, what would your answer be?

So what you are saying is that one is spiritually baptized and following that there is a water ceremony as a public sign. Is that correct? Do they occur at the same time or does the spiritual baptism preceed the water baptism. You said, in Acts 19, the spiritual baptism occurred in verse 6. They were baptized in water (for a second time) in verse 5. What was their water baptism a public sign of?

First of all, they are not my examples, they are God's. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. What kind of faith? Obedient faith as demonstrated in Heb 11. Yes, God has revealed things and I accept them through faith. In 6 days, the Lord created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. I accept that by faith. I accept that I have a human spirit, by faith. I also accept his instructions on how to have the remission of my sins. I do this by faith. By faith, I confessed his name (Matt 10:32), by faith I repented of my sins (Acts 17:30, Acts 2:38), by faith I was buried with Christ in baptism, (Col 2:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16) by By faith I become a child of God, by doing what he said to do. This is clear in Gal 3:26-27. According to the scriptures, I can only find one way INTO Christ. Once I'm a child of God, with my sins washed away by the Savior's blood, I begin my new life (Rom 6:3-4). I walk by faith. Will I walk perfectly? NO! I John 1:7-8. Will I earn any part of my salvaiton? NO!!! Will I sin? Yes. Am I continually covered by the blood as long as I walk in the light? Yes - I Jn 1:7.

 

Reply to ituttut

Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16, "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Notice, it was one gospel. Notice it was to be preached to the whole world (would include Gentiles). Notice, the person who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Notice, those who do not believe will be condemned.

This began on the day of Pentecost. It is the gospel of Christ, not John the Baptist. Where did that come from??? Not from scripture.

Matthew records in Matt 28:18-20, "And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen"

They were to go to all nations (this would include Gentiles) and teach the same thing (teach, baptize, teach) to everyone who then were taught to go and teach what they had been taught (to go teach, baptize, and teach). These instructions began to be carried out on the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2.

In Acts 1:8, Jesus said, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (to the end of the earth would include Gentiles).

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

This promise was for the Jews and Gentiles.

Paul makes it plain that the law was what seperated the Jews and the Gentiles.

Eph 2:14-18 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

The middle law was put to death, no longer valid, upon the death of Jesus on the Cross. No longer two different ways, but the SAME way to Christ.

Eph 3:3-6 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,

It had been revealed also the the other apostles and prophets how God would make the Gentiles fellow heirs by the same gospel.

Paul then goes on to say in Eph 4:5, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism;" Not two faiths, one for the Jew and one for the Gentiles, not 2 baptisms one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Jesus had taken away what separated them when he died on the cross.

Paul also said in Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

THE gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (Jews and Gentiles). The same gospel. Not two different ways for the Jews and Gentiles to be saved. Jews and Gentiles were reconciled by the blood of His Cross since the law that separated them was removed.

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Again, the law was taken out of the way at the cross, it was nailed to the cross. Baptism is described as a burial and being raised. Baptism is done through faith, whether Jew or Gentile.

Or as Paul told the Galatians, "22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice verse 26, that we might be justified by faith. Verse 27, For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Who are the "we" and the "many" who entered into Chirst? Vs 28, Jews, Greeks, slaves, free, males, females - I think that covers all mankind.

This ties back to Acts 2:38-39 and also compliments Eph 2:8-9.

 

There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit was given to those in Acts 10 and as retold in Acts 11, prior to their baptism in water. Let's look at the circumstances. I think everyone understands these were the first Gentile converts. Until this point, the gospel had been preached to the Jews.

Notice what God told Cornelius, Acts 11:14 "and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household."

When Peter began to speak (vs 15), the Holy Spirit fell on them. This baptism of the Holy Spirit reminded Peter of what had happened to the Apostles in Acts 2 (verse 16). Does this occur today or was it to let Peter and more importantly those with Peter know for certain that the Gospel was for the Gentiles also (Acts 10:45-47). If water baptism is an outward sign of something inward, why would water baptism be given to those who had outward signs? Surely nobody today recieves the Holy Spirit like Cornelius and his household. Can people today speak in foreign languages that they have not previously known when some start to tell them the gospel? Acts 2 and Acts 10 are the only recorded places that specifically mention people being baptized with the Holy Spirit. The first time, the Jews were added to the Church, the second time, the Gentiles.

Why did those believers in Acts 19 not receive it the same way as Cornelius? If you read Acts 18, Apollos most likely taught them concerning Jesus, but he only knew John's baptism (which was no longer valid). Therefore, these believers were asked if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed (Acts 19:2). What a strange question if it happens automatically. Did the inspired Apostle not understand about baptism of the Holy Spirit? They were baptized again in water, because their first baptism was not valid. Obviously, their baptism was more than just getting wet.

When they answered they had not even heard of the Holy Spirit, Paul asked, "And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" Notice, he did ask if they were baptized? Paul understood that baptism is part of belief or as he later stated a part of faith (Gal 3:26-27). Their baptism was not an outward "sign" of anything.

Paul then laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

The rulers in John 12:42 who believed but would not confess would be saved under the new law, right?

On the day of Pentecost, (Acts 2:37) these people believed. If they didn't believe they would have gone about their business, continuing to think the Apostles were drunk, and paid them no mind. It was obvious from their question that they believed, hence it would have been pointless to tell them to believe.

If they were saved when they believed, why did Peter tell them to do anything? Why didn't he instruct them in the "sinners prayer"? Why do you suppose he gave them instructions to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins if their sins were already remitted? If at the point of belief one is saved, then repentance is not required, because that was instructions given to them past their point of belief. Clearly, their baptism was "for the remission of sins" just the same as Jesus blood being shed for many "for the remission of sins" (Matt 26:28)

Later in Acts 2:44, it describes those who had believed, repented and been baptized, simply as "those who had believed". Now substitute these believers (and what they did that is summed up as believed) into a verse like John 3:16 and John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NASV)

The same is true for those in Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.

33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

Summary, told to believe, spoke the word of the Lord to them, baptized, rejoiced having believed.

I am not ignoring anything. Romans 10 fits perfectly with everything I have described. When you have the proper understanding of belief and faith, it all fits perfectly. Romans 10 does not negate the conversion examples in Acts, it only compliments them.

If you say a person is saved at the point of belief (mental assent), then that is in direct contradiction with what Jesus said in Mark 16:16, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved..." Yet if you understand "believed" in Acts 2:44 and Acts 16:34, then it all fits.

I'm not sure I understand what you are accusing me of. The bible teaches that we are a new creation at the time of our belief, repentance and baptism.

II Cor 5:17 says, "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

How do we get into Christ? The waters of baptism. Why are we baptized? Faith.

You can search the bible, cover to cover, and you can only find one way INTO Christ, and that is baptism (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:26-27). When do we have newness of life? Romans 6:4 says,"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Spirit baptism is not a burial and resurrection, but our baptism in water is. When does the new life begin? When we are raised from our watery grave.

I do not need to repeat that the power is in the blood and not the water. Read my original message for a further discussion on that.

 

I guess this confuses me too. Anyone care to tackle this one? He makes a good point, and a linguist might agree with him here, based on an established pattern of usage and context. Why is this the case? For my own comfort please? The only thing I can think is you have two differnt authors, maybe two different usages? </font>[/QUOTE]You are a mystery to me. You are a very intriguing individual.

A question we all need to ask ourselves, is do I study God’s word to get the truth or to prove what I already believe? People should NOT believe what I say, just because I said it. We need to be like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 who, were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I encourage people to study it for themselves, not to prove what you already believe, but to take God at his word. There is no one passage that is exhaustive, telling all a person must do to be saved. It has to be studied and rightly divided.

Jesus’ statement in Mark 16:16 is so plain a child can understand it, yet it has been twisted and re-arranged by people trying to make it fit everything else they believe. Some will say the same thing about me not believing Eph 2:8-9, which is an outright lie. I have explained time and time again how perfectly this fits together with the rest of the scripture. No, it will not fit if you use your own definitions of faith, but when you use what the scripture has provided, it fits perfectly, no twisting required.

I don’t expect any answer to the Acts 2:38 and Matt 26:28 question. I can assure you, any attempt will require some serious mental gymnastics.

You know, I think baptism is the ultimate act of faith. You look at how much resistance there is to it. People belittle it’s importance, change it’s meaning, say it’s spiritual and not in water, call people names and label them with titles who believe it, accuse them of works salvation, accuse them of believing the power is in the water and not in the blood, and so on.

When done in faith, wash and be clean – what could be simpler?

 

Hey Eric, they guy is COC, so is it possible he believes that during the commanded act to be baptized (in his view baptism is not man work but Gods work), Being taken into the water in obedience, that at that moment, and having faith in Christ, that he is spiritually baptized while in the water, the two being perhaps inextricably linked? This would make every verse of baptism, faith, works, and all the texts fit together without trying to use 'eis' in multiple modes in his view.

Just an overservation and thought...Isn't that sort of what Catholics believe?

It has always been hard for me as a Baptist to explain deeply what is happening, but I like the work recapitulation when describing a person recieveing Christ, being reborn. We say it happens in the very midst of a prayer of faith, calling on Jesus in an instant in time.

So then, the COC or RCC, they believe this very same thing happens during the very act of water baptism? This does not seem difficult to comprehend what they are saying they believe. If that is in fact, what they are saying, I don't fully know. </font>[/QUOTE]I have no idea what the RCC teaches concerning baptism. I know they baptize infants, who can not believe, repent, or confess which is certainly contrary to examples and instruction in scripture.

Chadman, I would not have used those words, but that is not too far off. For clarificaiton, the power is in the blood, not in the water. Jesus said in John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Also stated in I Cor 12:13, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,". The body is the Church (Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18).

When we go back to Act 2 to see how people entered the church, lets start with a verse I'm sure everyone is familiar with by now, Acts 2:38 which states, "Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Verse 41 states, "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them."

Verse 47 says "praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved."

When looked in total, those that received his word were baptized for the remission of sins and the Lord added the saved to the church.

 

Reply to Eric B:

Is there anything I could really say or show you to change your mind?

You say you've proved it was not water baptism. I'm sorry, I have missed the proof.

I Pet 3:21 is clearly water baptism. If it is not water baptism, then his whole example of Noah is meaningless. The last word in verse 20 is water.

I Pet 3:21, "There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

Antitype of what? His example he just gave how Noah was saved through water.

What is an antitype? If you walk in the sand, how does you foot compare to the footprint left in the sand? One is the type, the other is the antitype.

Noah was saved though water (How?, By faith he did what God said and was saved (Heb 11:7)) His was a physical saving. There is an antitype that saves us, immersion. There is no cleansing power of the water itself, it is knowing that you are obeying God.

Rom 6 is talking about immersion also. It is a burial and resurrection. One cannot be buried in the spirit then raised out of the spirit in which they were immersed. In verse 17, they had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine. What form? As described in vs 3-4, the death burial and resurrection and this was done in baptism.

Acts 8:35, the Philip preached Jesus. In the very next verse, the eunuch was asking about water baptism. Preaching Jesus includes water baptism.

OK, since I will be accused of believing in works salvation, water regeneration, and believing in some ancient Hindu practice, etc. - Let me state, none of these are true. Anyone who would assign beliefs to me that I do not have does not understand what I am saying. I fully believe in Eph 2:8-9. I am a child of God by faith (Gal 3:26-27). Baptism is not a work of merit but an action of faith, the same as confession and repentance, all things you "do".