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Featured If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 25, 2017.

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Would Man have fallen?

  1. Most certainly

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  2. No

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  3. I don't know

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  4. It is impossible to know

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  5. I don't care

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  6. He never ordained the Fall in the first place.

    4 vote(s)
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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God allows murder/rapes/etc every day her ein this life correct? EiterGod directly causes those acts to happn, allow them t happen, or else has no control over wht happns?
     
    #81 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2017
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I think the Lord permitted the Fall, for His grander purposes and plans working out from the Cross, as what satan and Adam meant for bad,H e turned to greater good BUT

    Even IFhe decreed the Fall directly, who are we to say not fair/righ?
     
    #82 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2017
  3. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Based on the Genesis account, he would basically be setting the trap, though.
     
    #83 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Funny. Most of the time I find myself defending permissive will against Calvinists. Now I am against....whatever you hold (I assume Open Theology as you seem to deny both the permissive and the perfect will of God).

    Defend your statement via Scripture. Where is it said that men cannot freely choose except that God force that decision (where does Scripture deny permissive will)?.
     
    #84 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, as God neither entices/tempts/causes one to sin, correct?
     
    #85 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There is a difference between permitting (or even causing the Fall) and causing sin. The problem is that some want to argue, but will never defend their faulty logic or define terms.

    To give you an example, God could have planned for Judas to betray Jesus for the purpose of offering His Son as a "guilt offering" for mankind. Here, this would be denied because it would be said that God "caused" Judas to sin...participated in that sin. The logic itself is flawed and sin is not defined.

    Scripture speaks of Joseph's betrayal. This one act is attributed to two entities - man and God. For man, Scripture says that this was sin. But for God, Scripture says He meant it for good (not sin).
     
    #86 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  7. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    The Bible is arguably inconsistent on this question.
     
    #87 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Either God determines all tings directly, and so aosed Holocust/ISIS , He allows it for now, as before Second Coming age, or else is impotent to do anything?
     
    #88 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No either to it. God does determine all things (how all things work and work out). But God does not cause sin. I would not even say that God "allows it", except that men freely choose sin. But I guess, as God has permitted such to occur, I can live with "allows it".
     
    #89 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And, no surprise, the question remains unanswered. So I will ask once again.

    You affirm that God knew for certain that Adam, when placed in the Garden, would sin. You confirm that God knew this before putting Adam in the Garden. And you confirm that God, knowing Adam would sin, planted the Garden (with that tree), took Adam and put Adam there (Adam didn't find it himself), yet God was not willing for Adam to sin. I think your logic is inconsistent. Can you defend your logic?

    If I am unwilling for water to come out of the tap, and I know for certain that by pulling the handle water will flow, then my pulling the handle is a logical impossibility. Either there is a greater motive or reason (in which case I am willing to allow for water as it satisfies my greater desire) or I will never pull the handle.
     
    #90 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
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  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I agree with you on this, as God could still ordain directly the Fall to happn. ad yet haveAdam and us still guilty as charged!

    Just find it hard to see how we can stae tGod authors sin as some have here, as God viewpoint on this issue light years beyond ours!
     
    #91 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2017
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I wasjust giving out what choices we have in regards to God and this issue.
     
    #92 Yeshua1, Jan 25, 2017
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Reading again your post, I see that you have misunderstood what permissive will means. What is usually meant by permissive will is that God simply lets it happen. That is, He does not directly intervene to prevent its happening. Many Calvinists reject the existence of “permissive will”.

    I mention this because I reacted to what you said, and reading your reply it was not what you meant. You meant God’s decrees (that God controls or causes what happens, not that God allows things to occur outside of his control).

    Here is the crux of our disagreement.

    I believe that God did not cause Adam to sin because God did not need to. When Adam sinned he sinned under that temptation because God did not give him more, not because God gave him less. God did not take away that grace from Adam as he was created in that original state of righteousness, but God did withhold giving Adam the grace to withstand every temptation (the grace we will share in glorification).

    The difference is that you believe God was somehow obligated to override Adam’s ability to freely choose. And I disagree. You think that because God did not grace Adam with enough to withstand every temptation that God is somehow guilty in Adam’s sin.
     
    #93 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is laughable. You haven't proven it does exist yet you want me to prove it doesn't
    If you can't show it to me in scripture permissive will does not exist with God.
    Permissive will has no purpose when men are free to choose whom they will follow. Free to choose to sin. free to choose to follow God. The free gift of Salvation cannot be free with out a choice to choose it. If we have no choice there is no point in it's very discussion. There is no point in faith, worship, or Love of our fellow man.
    If I created a robot and programed it to do things wrong. The robot would not be responsible I would be because, I created it to do so.
    God doesn't allow sin He forbids it, with His Law. His Law is proof that God is not willing that men sin. To say the opposite is foolishness.
    MB
     
    #94 MB, Jan 25, 2017
  15. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    I see the Bible presenting God as the author of sin because he intentionally created a scenario for sin to occur.
     
    #95 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    If I have upset you by what I have said I'm sorry the truth sometimes hurts. This post of yours above is a complete misunderstanding of what I have written here today. I have never believed that God forces man to sin if he doesn't want to. Nor do I believe God forces man to be saved. I do not believe that God has a permissive will in allowing man to sin and you have no reason to think so.
    MB
     
    #96 MB, Jan 25, 2017
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What an odd thing to say. Why would I be upset?

    You said specifically that “permissive will lives in the imagination of Calvinists” when the truth of the matter is many Calvinists deny permissive will all together. Most of the time the topic arises when discussing free-will theology (the idea that God allows things to happen without his direct control). I apparently misjudged your comments as I thought you advocated that men sinned of their own accord (James 1:13-15), but I also thought you believed Scripture when it states God's purpose will be accomplished (Isaiah 14,46, 55, Proverbs 19; Haggai 2; Ephesians 1; Hebrews 2; Romans 9....just to name a few).

    Can I prove that permissive will exists? YES, absolutely.

    Paul teaches us that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purposes. Peter tells us that this included the crucifixion of Jesus at the hands of the Jews, yet the Jews remained responsible for their own actions. God did not take away their free will and force them to sin.

    Now, your turn. And since we are talking about "permissive will" you have two ways to prove me wrong (either will do):

    1. Show me in Scripture where the plans and thoughts of man is shown to be controlled directly by God so that men have no freedom in choosing OR

    2. Prove via Scripture that God’s counsel will not stand, that he will not accomplish all of he has purposed.
     
    #97 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    God commands ALL not to sin.
    God wants ALL not to sin.
    God wants ALL to Love GOD.
    God wants ALL to Love Neighbor
    God gives all free will so they actually can, puppets and robots without free choice cannot love anything..
    People sin, they do what God does not WANT them to do.
    God still loves people who sin and wants to help them stop.

    Proof God wants them to stop sinning, is he still commands it to stop thus declaring his WANT AND DESIRE.

    Ezekiel 18
    23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

    The reason God wants you to stop sinning is because SIN HURTS YOU, Sin does NOTHING to God.


    God could snap a finger and have the entire perfect gospel and Christianity taught to you. He can put you in a classroom packed with ANGEL instructors, train you in perfect doctrine, explain everything to you.

    He can do that with EVERYONE, EASILY, Its harder for US to get a coke from the fridge then God to do this.

    Next time you grab anything from fridge, Remember he can teach you and fix everything if he wanted to.

    Why doesn't he do this? #1 GOD LOVES YOU

    What I showed is one possible solution, that's just my idea, God's plan is BETTER!


    If we don't trust God there is no faith.

    Looking behind God to the means is not faith.

    God wants to move your car. The correct response is IN GOD WE TRUST.

    The wrong response is look behind him and ask well where is your tow truck?


    God loves you MORE then you love you. God TRUSTS you more then you do you.

    God isn't like a untrusting wife who checks gps to make sure your not cheating on her. He already knows you better then you known you.

    There isn't a greater nor prouder personal cheerleader to your soul then God Almighty.



    The author of sin should be insignificant, Because Jesus Christ has claimed responsibility for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world.

    1 john 2
    2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.


    If someone steals my car, sins against me, and I feel a need to blame or accuse, I want the guy responsible, I need someone to PAY FOR THIS.

    Jesus Christ Pays for it. Jesus Christ is responsible. You need that thief to suffer? God says well He is my child there is no better way to make him pay then to have me pay.

    Someone who has faith in God, Not only lets him have the car, offers to pay the insurance too.


    The point is Jesus Christ already claims RESPONSIBILITY for all wrong things. The blame game should be over.
     
    #98 utilyan, Jan 25, 2017
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And God desires that none perish.
     
    #99 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  20. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Distinguish permissive will rendered certain (PWRC) from decretive will(DW)

    Was PWRC at play in Adam's sinning?
     
    #100 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
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