AndThisGospel
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Does a believer still retain a "fallen nature"?
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Calvin on "total depravity"
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Does a believer still retain a "fallen nature"?
AndThisGospel
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No. 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Corinthians 5:17).
The believer has died to sin (Romans 6:2 etc.). However, there remains, not in the believer, but in his 'flesh' or 'members,' a relic of the old nature which is constantly dragging him down. 'Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts' (Romans 6:12). He doesn't say, "Do not let sin reign in you" because that would contradict what he said earlier. We are to 'put to death' (Colossians 3:5) this relic of our old nature since it is something alien to us as believers. 'Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me' (Romans 7:20).
Ephesians 2:1-3
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
AndThisGospel
Member
Again, Calvin was wrong on total depravity.
You quoted from the NLT. While paraphrased Bibles are okay, they are not as accurate as non-paraphrase.
Here's an accurate version:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
You quoted from the NLT. While paraphrased Bibles are okay, they are not as accurate as non-paraphrase.
Here's an accurate version:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
AndThisGospel
Member
So you answered "no", but then you backtracked:
I'm sorry, but the Bible doesn't say anything about "a relic of the old nature". That's your concoction.
Let's examine the converted Paul and see what he said?
Rom 7:18 For I (Paul) know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh (Greek: Sarx*); for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I do the very thing that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that sin is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
* Strong's Greek: "human nature"
AndThisGospel
Member
Our human nature doesn't change one iota. It remains the same. The change is in the mind (heart) because God's Spirit dwells in the heart through faith.
Which part of man was not affected by the fall? Did Adam's body not bear the marks of sin? Did Adam's soul not bear the marks of sin? Did Adam's spirit not bear the marks of sin?
So, which part of Adam was not affected by the fall but remained sinless and deserves heaven on its own merit?
AndThisGospel
Member
The whole man, body, soul & spirit was affected by the fall. There's nothing good in our fallen humanity. This is true after conversion also...
Exactly. And that is the very definition of Total Depravity.
So you said Calvin was wrong.....then you take his position? [emoji6]
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By nature, children of wrath.
Funny how you didn't highlight and bolden this part of the passage. Why is that do you suppose?
Also, how can a dead man come to life?
Was it just the Ephesians who were dead in their trespasses and sins?
Who gives life?
How can a dead man choose life?
Use any English translation you desire, the same message is spoken by God.
[Personal attack edited]
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AndThisGospel
Member
Here's the part I disagree with: men "..apart from the efficacious ... grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God."
Peter states that "The gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6), i.e., "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1).
Paul tells us that this is a spiritual death: "We know that the law (the measuring stick of righteousness) is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." Rom 7:14
How does "sin" manifest itself? "Sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4) But what is sin (singular)? Sin is not just breaking rules. If that's all sin is then the Pharisees kept all the rules of the Torah plus they added some of their own, but Christ, speaking of the Pharisees, said "all they do is to be seen of men".
What then is "sin", singular. Well, Paul said, "I would not have known sin (singular) except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.'" (Rom 7:7)
What is "coveting, is it an outward act? No! Coveting is not an act, but a desire. "Coveting" is really "self-seeking" something we are all born with.
Go to 1 cor 13:3 "If I gave everything I have to the poor ... I could boast about it". In other words outwardly I've done something good (and would be praised by men), but inwardly the motive is so "I could boast". Doing the right thing outwardly for the wrong motive is the essence of sin.
What then is "sin"? I've already touched on this: Sin = self-seeking. Sin is the opposite of agape. We are told by the Apostle Paul that "(agape)...is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:5). Therefore the essence of sin is self-seeking.
Now turn to 1 Cor 10:24 (KJV):
"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."
Self-seeking is sin. It is a condition we are born with. In the Old Testament they called sin "iniquity". The root meaning of this word is “crooked” or “bent.” Scripture uses it to describe our natural spiritual condition. The term iniquity does not primarily refer to an act of sin but to a condition of sinfulness. As a result of the Fall, men and women are by nature spiritually “bent.” The love of self is the driving force of our natures. Paul defines this as “the law of sin and death” that is at work in our lives [Romans 8:2; cf. 7:23]. It is this condition that underlies all our sinning and makes us slaves to sin [see Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].
Tell me, who among us is "without sin"? Remember sin is self-seeking. Sin is loving yourself. Sin is seeking your own wealth instead of your neighbor's. That's why the law demands that you "love your neighbors as you love yourself". The law demands "agape", not self-love (self-seeking).
Now, when someone gives you the good news of salvation in Christ, can you respond? Sure! Why? You love yourself and you certainly do not want to die in the fires of hell. Mansions in heaven ain't a bad deal either. So we can come to Christ, by faith, albeit for selfish motives.
So Calvin is wrong. We can believe when we hear the gospel. We can choose God. Then God's Spirit comes in and dwells in our minds & hearts. Thus God changes the heart & mind, but He doesn't change our natures.
Sin nature is oxymoron because SIN is a UNATURAL abomination.
All nature is God created and GOOD or its not nature at all. If anything is corrupted to the point no good remains then neither anything natural remains.
The Manicheans tried to introduce Total Depravity. The problem is MAN is made in the image of God, and if the nature of man is corrupted to where there is no good then you don't have a man at all.
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Read ST. Augustine On the nature of GOOD:
Chapter 17.— Nature, in as Far as It is Nature, No Evil
No nature, therefore, as far as it is nature, is evil; but to each nature there is no evil except to be diminished in respect of good. But if by being diminished it should be consumed so that there is no good, no nature would be left; not only such as the Manichæans introduce, where so great good things are found that their exceeding blindness is wonderful, but such as any one can introduce.
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Bottom line. Nature is from God and is good. The IMAGE OF GOD is absolutely good. If a nature is ever corrupted to the point there is NO GOOD then NO NATURE Remains.
If it gets to a point where a person has no good not even the tiniest of SOME GOOD then the nature is destroyed, The image of God is not present, Its not even a person or a man, there is no soul there.
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I still thought that it is not we who sin but some other nature that sins within us. It flattered my pride to think that I incurred no guilt and, when I did wrong, not to confess it... I preferred to excuse myself and blame this unknown thing which was in me but was not part of me. The truth, of course, was that it was all my own self, and my own impiety had divided me against myself. My sin was all the more incurable because I did not think myself a sinner. (Confessions, Book V, Section 10) --ST AUGUSTINE
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Augustine who believed in TOTAL DEPRAVITY. REPENTED out of it. Because all it is a EXCUSE to blame GOD for the things you do wrong.
Why do you sin? MY FAULT or "SIN NATURE" <-- Pick one.
All nature is God created and GOOD or its not nature at all. If anything is corrupted to the point no good remains then neither anything natural remains.
The Manicheans tried to introduce Total Depravity. The problem is MAN is made in the image of God, and if the nature of man is corrupted to where there is no good then you don't have a man at all.
====
Read ST. Augustine On the nature of GOOD:
Chapter 17.— Nature, in as Far as It is Nature, No Evil
No nature, therefore, as far as it is nature, is evil; but to each nature there is no evil except to be diminished in respect of good. But if by being diminished it should be consumed so that there is no good, no nature would be left; not only such as the Manichæans introduce, where so great good things are found that their exceeding blindness is wonderful, but such as any one can introduce.
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Bottom line. Nature is from God and is good. The IMAGE OF GOD is absolutely good. If a nature is ever corrupted to the point there is NO GOOD then NO NATURE Remains.
If it gets to a point where a person has no good not even the tiniest of SOME GOOD then the nature is destroyed, The image of God is not present, Its not even a person or a man, there is no soul there.
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I still thought that it is not we who sin but some other nature that sins within us. It flattered my pride to think that I incurred no guilt and, when I did wrong, not to confess it... I preferred to excuse myself and blame this unknown thing which was in me but was not part of me. The truth, of course, was that it was all my own self, and my own impiety had divided me against myself. My sin was all the more incurable because I did not think myself a sinner. (Confessions, Book V, Section 10) --ST AUGUSTINE
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Augustine who believed in TOTAL DEPRAVITY. REPENTED out of it. Because all it is a EXCUSE to blame GOD for the things you do wrong.
Why do you sin? MY FAULT or "SIN NATURE" <-- Pick one.
AndThisGospel
Member
God created Adam in His likeness. This can't refer to Adam's form because "God is Spirit" and Adam was made from the dust or "flesh and blood". Therefore being made in the likeness of God refers to the fact that Adam's nature reflected the self-emptying love of God, i.e., His agape love.
At the fall, when Adam turned his back on Gdd, Adam's agape took a u-turn. In the place of selflessness (agape) Adam now could only produce selfishness (iniquity or self-love). Thus Adam's nature was no longer in the likeness of God. We call this having a fallen nature.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day (i.e, the 6th day of creation) that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam (i.e., mankind), in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years (i.e, after the fall), and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Again, Adam (mankind) was make in the likeness of God, but at the fall agape was replaced by self-love. Thus Adam had a son in his own image, not God's image.
AndThisGospel
Member
I'll let the converted Paul answer your question:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will (i.e, to try to be good) is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me...
AndThisGospel
Member
Now why do we sin?
Because we are born polluted with only self-love. We can do good things outwardly, but for a price. That means we can't do anything unless it benefits us in some way. That's self-love or selfishness.
If I'm wrong about this then prove me wrong. Do as Christ said:
“If you want to be perfect, go, sell all that you have and give to the poor..."
That's agape....That loving others with no thought towards yourself.
AndThisGospel
Member
"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."
What is Paul stating? Let no man seek out his own wealth, but every man seek for another's wealth.
That's agape....
Now, do Christians fully do this?
No!
Proof: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23
"All have sinned" is in the past tense. Everyone has sinned, period.
"And come short of the glory of God"
This is in the present continuous tense. Everyone is coming up short when it comes to perfectly reflecting God's agape love.
What's Paul's conclusion?
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
What is Paul stating? Let no man seek out his own wealth, but every man seek for another's wealth.
That's agape....
Now, do Christians fully do this?
No!
Proof: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23
"All have sinned" is in the past tense. Everyone has sinned, period.
"And come short of the glory of God"
This is in the present continuous tense. Everyone is coming up short when it comes to perfectly reflecting God's agape love.
What's Paul's conclusion?
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
AndThisGospel
Member
Peter is living proof that we can initially serve God for selfish motives.
- We don't want to burn (i.e., fire insurance)
- We want something in return (i.e., mansions, heaven)
Then Peter said to him, “We’ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get?” Matt 19:27
Peter was following Christ, but he was still an immature Christian. He was still a baby, spiritually. He believed in Christ so that he could get something in return. Yes, after the cross, Peter changed, but my point is we can come to Christ by the hearing of the gospel. We can choose, albeit selfishly, to accept Christ. Then Christ, through His Spirit, begins to change our motives by changing our hearts, not our natures.
AndThisGospel
Member
Proof:
John 15:3 You are already clean (i.e., perfect "in Christ") because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Note verse 3: "In Christ" we already stand perfect. That's the gospel.
Now, what about the fruits of the gospel (i.e., good works). How does that happen?
By abiding "in Christ" through faith. Then He will work is us to bring glory to the Father that others may see Christ and desire salvation.
But notice, without Christ, we can do nothing good.
Yes, again, we can do good things for selfish reasons, but this isn't doing "good". Such fruit is polluted with self-interest and in God's eyes such pretentious fruit is filthy rags, i.e., self-righteous fruit.
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