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Featured Neuroscience says free will does not exist.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Feb 5, 2017.

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  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Oh, the God of agape hated a whole nation...
     
    #21 SovereignGrace, Feb 6, 2017
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Luke 14

    26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

    Let me guess you guys shot dead your father, mother, wife and children?

    OR could it mean a figure of speech to prioritize God? as God prioritized on Jacob.

    Or maybe it means God doesn't have to teach someone who loves their family anything new the only people who need to be disciples are the idiots who do hate their family and haven't got a clue of God's good character.

    Nice little hidden gem right here:

    27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

    You don't/can't carry your own cross. The false humility is so exaggerated and extremist in crediting God you made him helpless teacher who can't teach anyone anything. So I guess its true you can't be a student/disciple of Jesus, since he does the only cross carrying around.
     
    #22 utilyan, Feb 6, 2017
  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    What does that have to do with neuroscience and no free will, utilyan?
     
    #23 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    It doesn't. He tries to deflect, take focus from the OP...
     
    #24 SovereignGrace, Feb 6, 2017
  5. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Where atheist neuroscientists go wrong is in denying that humans have a soul and spirit. Their version of no free will is that matter has predetermined all events by virtue of how molecular constructs are organized. All matter is predetermined by the events of nature. It is fatalism in its purest form because it denies a Creator God that has attributes of love, mercy, grace, judgment, etc.
    As believers we do not view the Creator as uncaring because God reveals himself in scripture as a compassionate God.
     
    #25 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Since scientist for the most part do not believe there is a God. This is laughable. The idea that we are controlled by the stars is there idea of control?. You aren't the first Calvinist to try science to prove determinism, Science once believe the world was flat. The mistakes that science has made in the past certainly doesn't testify on their behalf. They are always correcting them selves. I'm glad God doesn't have to correct Him Self.
    MB
     
    #26 MB, Feb 6, 2017
  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I place science below God's word. Science is merely the observation of God's creation. As finite creatures we cannot know the mind of God, except that which he reveals. God reveals himself via natural revelation and special revelation. In God's word we see God choosing from Genesis to Revelation. God never leaves things to chance, anywhere in the Bible. In nature we see the same thing. Nature is not chance. Nature is designed and directed by its creator.

    In this case, neuroscience is recognizing in nature what God has has revealed in scripture. There is no correction with God.

    Why should it bother humans that God does not leave humanity to chance?
     
    #27 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    With out the ability to choose leaves all of us with out reason to survive. With out capacity to experience true Love. Man would have no faith because in determinism nothing is left to to chance. There would be no Hope with out choice because if every thing is predetermined why hope for what we already have. Hope is faith and with out hope we have no faith and faith is not a gift, Salvation is.
    MB
     
    #28 MB, Feb 6, 2017
  9. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    There would be none of those things without God. We cannot experience any of those emotions without God. Faith is a gift from God. Love is a gift from God. Hope is a gift from God. Breath is a gift from God. You are a created being of God. Why do you demand freedom from him? Where does the Bible tell you that you are free from God?
     
    #29 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    It had to do with YOUR post: "God loved Jacob and hated Esau".

    Sorry I didn't expect to have to connect the dots for you. Is common sense always the last thing for elect to regenerate?


    Luke 14

    26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

    Let me guess you guys shot dead your father, mother, wife and children?

    OR could it mean a figure of speech to prioritize God? as God prioritized on Jacob.

    Or maybe it means God doesn't have to teach someone who loves their family anything new the only people who need to be disciples are the idiots who do hate their family and haven't got a clue of God's good character.

    Nice little hidden gem right here:

    27“Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

    You don't/can't carry your own cross. The false humility is so exaggerated and extremist in crediting God you made him helpless teacher who can't teach anyone anything. So I guess its true you can't be a student/disciple of Jesus, since he does the only cross carrying around.
     
    #30 utilyan, Feb 6, 2017
  11. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    But how would the soul or spirit function? Are they also determined, or is it just the physical/neurological element?
     
    #31 StefanM, Feb 6, 2017
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    We cannot love anyone with out the choice to do so. Sin is with out God, is being free from God and the Law. Paul says so Romans 7. Lucifer was free to sin and did as he still does. God has no part in sin. Sin it's self is a by product of the Law. We have the freedom to sin even after Salvation. Yet you seem to be saying we have no choice. If sin is predetermined then it would be the fault of the one who determined it. Determinism removes responsibility for the sin. Determinism makes God responsible for what we do because of determinism we would have no choice.

    I admit there are certain things that will take place because God has determined them to happen. This how ever does not remove our free choice to seek God and follow after Him. He has determined our demise if we do not believe in Him. He has even predestined us to be conformed to His likeness if we do believe. He has chosen us for Salvation first, though it has not been predetermined we will choose Him. This in no way prohibits Him from raising up certain men and women to bring about His will.
    Determinism would leave us with no desire to seek Him. No desire to preach His word and there is nothing foolish about preaching His Holy Word.

    Being chosen does not mean we have been determined to believe in Him. Many Jews were chosen and still have not believed and some will never believe.

    We are His creation and we are to Love Him. How ever if it were predetermined that love would be a false love and not anything that would come from man, but only God. True love is always by choice.
    MB
     
    #32 MB, Feb 6, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    MB, you have added much that the Bible does not teach. I will list them.

    1) We cannot love without the choice to do so.
    2) Sin is free from God and the law. (No, sin is still under God's law. No one is free of God's judgment.)
    3) Satan is by no means free. If he was he would not have had to ask God for permission to touch Job. Don't give him credit.
    4) The law shows us what sin is. It is not a product of the law. The law is perfect.
    5) Indeed we sin. We are born in sin by virtue of the 1st Adam and the fall. Our redemption by Yeshua's atonement does not stop us from being rebels at the heart. The fault is within us.
    6) The scripture states: "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." ~ Romans 3:10-12

    Everyone runs from God, by nature.

    7) God has predestined.
    "Even as he chose us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."
    ~ Ephesians 1:4-6
    We were predetermined to believe before the foundation of the world was laid.

    8) Where does the Bible say that true love is always by choice?

    You added much, because you want to add it so you can feel important. Here's a newsflash...we aren't important. We are miniscule and worthless creatures. We would be crushed, like a sow bug, if God did not choose to redeem us. Never fall for Satan's lie that you and I are important and needed for our own salvation. God does not need us.
     
    #33 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Again...what is your point? You can quote it a third time and I still won't connect your seemingly random dots.

    I cannot grasp how your post relates to this thread. Is it some attempt to make those verses talk about free will?
     
    #34 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  15. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    They are God created, just as the body is God created. Without God nothing would be held together.
     
    #35 MennoSota, Feb 6, 2017
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  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Its very simple point. The expression hate doesn't always mean absolute detest So when God hates Esau that's just his attention was more on Jacob.

    Ridiculous stance easily understood with Jesus own use of the word hate, You have to hate your father, mother, wife and children.

    Have you killed your father, mother, wife and children yet? No, that would be ridiculous.
     
    #36 utilyan, Feb 7, 2017
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "Not true. God and man both exist in Yeshua the Messiah."

    No according to you Jesus Christ is not human. Because 100% human have no free will.


    See I can easily state Jesus Christ is 100% human being and they come standard with free will.



    Does it have free will? YES, then that is not a human. GAME OVER!
     
    #37 utilyan, Feb 7, 2017
  18. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately for you, hate does mean to detest. It does not mean I found Jacob to be just a bit better than you. God clearly chose Jacob and chose to love Jacob despite Jacobs sin. God chose to hate Esau's sin and show no love to him.

    Your comparison between the two verses is terribly weak the context is different. Why do you struggle so much with context?
     
    #38 MennoSota, Feb 7, 2017
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  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Where do you find the Bible stating, humans "come standard with free will"? Please, just show us so you can end the game. I would love to see just one verse that uses the term free will. Enlighten me on this "game over" teaching that you so vociferously claim.

    Where does the Bible say you cannot be 100% human if you don't have free will?

    I will wait for your bible verses and text.
     
    #39 MennoSota, Feb 7, 2017
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  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Sure the bible verse is right where it says you cannot be human unless your totally depraved. Its on the page right before where it says the bible is the final and only rule of authority concerning Christianity.


    That's easy Jesus Christ is the perfect example of a human. That is how we are justified. He didn't come down as a hippo or a tutrle did he?
    Here is bible verses:
    1 Corinthians 11
    1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
    1 Peter 2
    21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
    John 14
    12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
    Scripture speaks for itself I don't have to butcher or take the BACKWARDS meanings.
    Jesus Christ is the EXAMPLE of human being even the one to follow.
     
    #40 utilyan, Feb 7, 2017
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