Temporal and Eternal Punishment

[ June 10, 2005, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

There is no temporary punishment such as purgatory. Such a concept cannot be backed up with Scripture. When one dies they either go to Heaven or Hell. Hell is described in Luke 16 where the rich man was tormented in this flame and begged for Lazarus to come and cool the tip of his tongue (as if that would really alleviate any pain). He was delusional about the state of his eternal pain.
Ultimately that place called Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire described in Rev.20:11-15. One fiery Hell into another. Thus Hell, for all intents and purposes, is eternal.
Likewise heaven. Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He was looking forward to being with Christ in Heaven, as soon as he left his earthly body. There were no stops inbetween. He knew where he was going.
DHK

 

DHK,

A possibly unrelated question, but you said:

Does this happen right when they die or later?

Joseph Botwinick

 

#1. The Bible never says that a person will always get caught by the police for every crime they commit. The idea that temporal punishment is always exhaustive for very wrong done is pure mythology invented by the RCC.

#2. The two ARE different. The torment and persecution inflicted on the saints by the RCC during the dark ages (for example) was "temporal punishment" but was unjust. The Lake of Fire on the other hand IS just.

#3. There are also cases where temporal punishment is mentioned as "good" and "of God" but never is it said to cover all "sin" done in this life.

In Christ,

Bob

 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul indicates that it happens right away. It is our resurrection that we wait for.

 

So, the Christians soul goes to the Lord while their body awaits the ressurection? Is that correct? Is the same true of the opposite (i.e.: those who are lost and go to hell)?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Yes.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

Is the same true of those who are lost and going to hell?

Joseph Botwinick

 

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:4-8 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
6 This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus describes two resurrections: one for the just, and one for the unjust.
Revelation gives much more detail about these two resurrections. They are separated by a thousand years. The resurrection of the saved happens first. The millennial kingdom is between the two. After the Kingdom Period is over, Satan shall be loosed, and all unsaved from every conceivable place will be raised (the resurrection of the unsaved) and will then be given their final sentence and be cast into the lake of fire.
DHK

 

Thanks for the info.

Joseph Botwinick

 

...and an RCC responds with

"There shall not enter into it(Heaven) anything defiled" (Apoc. 21:27)

Christ said, "Amen, I say to thee, thou will not come out from it until thou hast paid the last penny". (Matthew. 5:26)

After a battle, Judas Machabeus ordered prayers and sacrifices offered up for his slain comrades."And making a gathering, he sent twelve drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. For, if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. AQnd because he considered that they had fallen asleep with godliness had great grace laid for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2 Machebeus 12: 43-46).

 

The early Christians taught that believers go straight to heaven upon death, whereas the wicked go to Hades to await judgement. The erroneous chiliasts taught that believers also go to Hades, to the part reserved for the righteous, and denied that Christ emptied this part of Hades after his resurrection.

 

We use the Bible here; story books don't count.

 

Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

Luke 13:2-5 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him hould not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, re set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

#1. The story-book calls them "THE DEAD" not even "The DEAD in Christ" so the RCC by using this is claiming to PRAY FOR the DEAD and in that regard even TO THE DEAD!! What a confession.

#2. The story-book charges that these DEAD (and not merely their dead bodies) are THEMSELVES ASLEEP!!! This means that the RCC is claiming that THE DEAD being prayed for are NOT in purgatory but are ASLEEP according to this story.

#3. The story-book charges that THE DEAD receive NO BENEFIT from this prayer APART from the RESURRECTION of the DEAD. The RCC would have to RENOUNCE ALL claims to benefits IN DEATH to claim this "story".

#4. The story book claims that THE DEAD who die in the MORTAL SIN of IDOLATRY CAN be benefitted by prayers for forgiveness. The RCC today REJECTS the idea that ANYONE can be benefitted IF THEY die in mortal sin which they claim IDOLATRY is!! They would have to change their teaching on MORTAL vs VENIAL sin distinctions where they claim that in Purgatory it is ONLY THE VENIAL sins that are dealt with because those with MORTAL SINS can't be there.

But except for all that "attention to detail" this is a good text for Catholics!! (And I so love it when they fall for using it). It is "instructive" that they have SO LITTLE in support of their man-made tradition (that so contradicts scripture) that the BEST they can find to support it is this text that so debunks their ideas on death and what happens in death!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ June 10, 2005, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

It may sound disrespectful, Tragic, but IMO but that is what many of those books are. They are fictious and fraudulent. Try reading the 13th and 14th chapters of Daniel--stories of Bel and the Dragon, and of Daniel in the lion's den a second time, and tell me whether or not they sound like a child's fairy tale book.
DHK

 

[ June 10, 2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

We are making a comparison with God's revelation to man. The Word of God is inspired of God. It is sent down from God to man. They are the actual words of God meant for man.

The apocryphal books are no more inspired than Shakespeares writings, T.S. Elliot, Karl Marx, or any other person. In fact, as I mentioned to you already, some of them are fictious--made up stories with no basis in fact; stories as from a story book. It would do you well to read the aforementioned books that I referred you to. When compared to the inspired Word of God, I have no respect whatsoever for these books to be classified as inspired. They are fraudlulent and ought to be treated as such.
DHK