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What did Constantine actually do?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Jul 12, 2005.

  1. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

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    This writer contends that the great city we are discussing is none other than Rome, and the harlot, is none other than the Church of Rome. For she is the original form of apostate Christianity, that first abandoned the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state. She leaned on the latter, because she had already lost the former. Through compromise, and mixing pagan practices with the true religion, which is an abomination to God, she lost the power of the Holy Spirit, and thus strove for the power of the state.

    It is not such a simple thing as to say that the Church of Rome was that apostate Christian institution which first sought the power of the state, over the power of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, she is the result of apostate Christianity seeking the power of the state, because she had lost the power of the Holy Spirit. Among the various apostate Christian entities of the day, she is the one who gained the favor of the state, to the furtherance of her ends. The struggle between these various groups of apostate Christians, requires to much detail to address. The observation of which, would convince any true Christian, of their fallen state. The purpose of the following is to establish the fact of her relations, and empowerment, with, and by the kings of this earth.

    In any case, Constantine, the first supposed Christian emperor of the Roman empire, was the first to give apostate Christianity the power of the state. He did thus, by enacting the first Sunday law. Observe the following.

    The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
    "One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

    Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
    "This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

    In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

    In the above quotes, we see some of the identifying marks of Babylon being fulfilled. The establishment of the first Sunday law came about through the illicit relationship of those who claimed to be God’s people, with the kings of the earth, and the false religious practices of the pagan religions of the nations of these kings. In Constantine, we find the first Emperor of Rome to begin committing fornication with the Mother of Harlots, that is Babylon. Let’s look at some more from A.T. Jones.

    Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
    Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )
    The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )

    By instituting the first Sunday laws, Constantine gave the Church of Rome the power of the state. For this law commanded all, those in, and out of the faith, to observe this apostate Christian institution. This was just some of the beginnings of the Church of Rome’s illicit relationships with the kings, and pagan religions of this world. Though she claims to have been established by Christ, through the first Pope, Peter, she was really established through the power of the kings of this earth. It was these with whom she committed spiritual adultery, and fornication. Let’s look at some more historical facts confirming these truths found in the book The Two Republics, by A. T. Jones.

    “The Catholic Church demanded assistance in her ambitious aim to make her power and authority absolute over all; and for Constantine’s purposes it was essential that the church should be a unit. These two considerations combined to produce results both immediate and remote, that proved a curse to the time then present and to ages to follow. The immediate result was that Constantine had no sooner compassed the destruction of Licinius in A.D. 323, than he issued an edict against the Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, Cataphrygians, and “all who devised and supported heresies by means of private assemblies,” denouncing them and their heresies, and commanding them all to enter the Catholic Church. The edict runs as follows: —

    “Victor Constantinus Maximus Augustus, to the heretics: Understand now, by this present statute, ye Novatians, Valentinians, Marcionites, Paulians, ye who are called Cataphrygians, and all ye who devise and support heresies by means of your private assemblies, with what a tissue of falsehood and vanity, with what destructive and venomous errors, your doctrines are inseparably interwoven; so that through you the healthy soul is stricken with disease, and the living becomes the prey of everlasting death. Ye haters and enemies of truth and life, in league with destruction: All your counsels are opposed to the truth, but familiar with deeds of baseness; fit subjects for the fabulous follies of the stage: and by these ye frame falsehoods, oppress the innocent, and withhold the light from them that believe. Ever trespassing under the mask of godliness, ye fill all things with defilement: ye pierce the pure and guileless conscience with deadly wounds, while ye withdraw, one may almost say, the very light of day from the eyes of men. But why should I particularize, when to speak of your criminality as it deserves, demands more time and leisure than I can give? For so long and unmeasured is the catalogue of your offenses, so hateful and altogether atrocious are they, that a single day would not suffice to recount them all. And indeed it is well to turn one’s ears and eyes from such a subject, lest by a description of each particular evil, the pure sincerity and freshness of one’s own faith be impaired. Why then do I still bear with such abounding evil; especially since this protracted clemency is the cause that some who were sound are become tainted with this pestilent disease? Why not at once strike, as it were, at the root of so great a mischief by a public manifestation of displeasure?
    “Forasmuch, then, as it is no longer possible to bear with your pernicious errors, we give warning by this present statute that none of you henceforth presume to assemble yourselves together. We have directed, accordingly, that you be deprived of all the houses in which you are accustomed to hold your assemblies: and our care in this respect extends so far as to forbid the holding of your superstitious and senseless meetings, not in public merely, but in any private house or place whatsoever. Let those of you, therefore, who are desirous of embracing the true and pure religion, take the far better course of entering the Catholic Church, and uniting with it in holy fellowship, whereby you will be enabled to arrive at the knowledge of the truth. In any case, the delusions of your perverted understandings must entirely cease to mingle with and mar the felicity of our present times; I mean the impious and wretched doublemindedness of heretics and schismatics. For it is an object worthy of that prosperity which we enjoy through the favor of God, to endeavor to bring back those who in time past were living in the hope of future blessing, from all irregularity and error, to the right path, from darkness to light, from vanity to truth, from death to salvation. And in order that this remedy may be applied with effectual power, we have commanded (as before said), that you be positively deprived of every gathering point for your superstitious meetings; I mean all the houses of prayer (if such be worthy of the name) which belong to heretics, and that these be made over without delay to the Catholic Church; that any other places be confiscated to the public service, and no facility whatever be left for any future gathering; in order that from this day forward none of your unlawful assemblies may presume to appear in any public or private place. Let this edict be made public.” ( Eusebius’s- “Life of Constantine,” book 3, chaps. 64, 65. )


    Some of the penal regulations of this edict “were copied from the edicts of Diocletian; and this method of conversion was applauded by the same bishops who had felt the hand of oppression, and had pleaded for the rights of humanity.” ( Gibbon- “Decline and Fall,” chap. 21, par. 1. )


    As is obvious from the above edict, the establishment of the Church of Rome had nothing to do with the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To the contrary, she was established through the power of the state, not the power of the Holy Spirit. The emperor that established her power did so for purely political reasons, the establishment of his authority above all civil, or religious entities of the day.

    As the emperor of the Rome, Constantine was already the head of all the pagan religions of that empire, and was himself a devout worshipper of the sun. His supposed conversion to Christianity was nothing more than a political ploy to be the head of this new religion also. Thus his purpose was, as already stated, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." This settled uniformity was to be under his authority, and complete control. Therefore, the establishment of the Church of Rome was brought about by the selfish motives, of a pagan emperor who would embrace Christianity, as a means of obtaining his goal. Not to mention the selfish motives, and ambitions of apostate Christians who were themselves seeking power, and prestige.

    Apostate Christianity, having entered the stage of the politics of this world, has never ceased to be entangled in the same. She is ever entrenched in the political strife, struggles for supremacy, and unquenchable thirst for power of the same. The Church of Rome is the Mother of all supposed Christian institutions which have become more concerned with the politics of this world, and its struggles for power, than the fulfilling of the gospel commission. “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” ( Matt. 24:14 )

    The following are more historical quotes, and facts regarding the establishment, or re-establishment of the Church of Rome’s authority. As a political entity of this world, her authority, and influence have continually, and are continually being challenged by others of the same. The history of her political struggles, and alliances with the kings of this earth, are sufficient proof that she is the Mother Of Harlots, who commits fornication with the kings of the earth. Thus, this identifying mark is fulfilled in her history. Of the many books that could be studied, for a more detailed history of her politics, the following are recommended by the writer. The Great Empires of Prophecy, and The Two Republics, both written by Alonzo Jones.


    Gratian was but the tool of the bishops. Ambrose was at that time bishop of Milan, and never was episcopal ambition more arrogantly asserted than in that insolent prelate. Soon the mind of the bishop asserted the supremacy over that of the boy emperor, and Ambrose “wielded at his will the weak and irresolute Gratian.” ( Milman- “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 8, par. 28. )

    But above all things else that Gratian did, that which redounded most to the glory of the Catholic Church was his choice of Theodosius as associate emperor. Valens was killed in a battle with the Goths, A.D. 378. A stronger hand than that of a youth of nineteen was required to hold the reins of government in the East. In the establishment of the Catholic Church, the place of Theodosius is second only to that of Constantine. About the beginning of the year 380 he was baptized by the Catholic bishop of Thessalonica, and immediately afterward he issued the following edict: —

    “It is our pleasure that the nations which are governed by our clemency and moderation, should steadfastly adhere to the religion which was taught by St. Peter to the Romans, which faithful tradition has preserved, and which is now professed by the pontiff Damasus, and by Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the discipline of the apostles, and the doctrine of the gospel, let us believe the sole deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: under an equal majesty, and a pious Trinity. We authorize the followers of this doctrine to assume the title of Catholic Christians; and as we judge that all others are extravagant madmen, we brand them with the infamous name of “heretics,” and declare that their conventicles shall no longer usurp the respectable appellation of churches. Besides the condemnation of divine justice, they must expect to suffer the severe penalties which our authority, guided by heavenly wisdom, shall think proper to inflict upon them.” ( Gibbon’s “Decline and Fall,” chap. 27, par. 6. )


    This law was issued in the names of the three emperors, Gratian, Valentinian II, and Theodosius. “Thus the religion of the whole Roman world was enacted by two feeble boys and a rude Spanish soldier.” ( Milman- “History of Christianity,” book 3, chap. 9, par. 1. )

    In the supremacy of the papacy, Justinian holds the same place as does Constantine and Theodosius in the establishment of the Catholic Church. “Among the titles of greatness, the name ‘Pious’ was most pleasing to his ears; to promote the temporal and spiritual interests of the church was the serious business of his life; and the duty of father of his country was often sacrificed to that of defender of the faith.” ( Gibbon - “Decline and Fall,” chap. xlvii, par. 23. )

    “The emperor Justinian unites in himself the most opposite vices, — insatiable rapacity
    and lavish prodigality, intense pride and contemptible weakness, unmeasured ambition and dastardly cowardice.... In the Christian emperor, seem to meet the crimes of those who won or secured their empire by assassination of all whom they feared, the passion for public diversions without the accomplishments of Nero or the brute strength of Commodus, the dotage of Claudius.” ( Milman - “History of Latin Christianity,” book 3, chap. 4, par. 2. )


    In the year 532, Justinian issued an edict declaring his intention “to unite all men in one faith.” Whether they were Jews, Gentiles, or Christians, all who did not within three months profess and embrace the Catholic faith, were by the edict “declared infamous, and as such excluded from all employments both civil and military; rendered incapable of leaving anything by will; and all their estates confiscated, whether real or personal.” As a result of this cruel edict, “Great numbers were driven from their habitations with their wives and children, stripped and naked. Others betook themselves to flight, carrying with them what they could conceal, for their support and maintenance; but they were plundered of what little they had, and many of them inhumanly massacred.” ( Bower - “History of the Popes,” Boniface 2,
    par. 2. )


    THE CODE OF OUR LORD
    THE MOST SACRED EMPEROR JUSTINIAN.
    SECOND EDITION.

    BOOK 1.
    ________________________________________

    TITLE 1.
    CONCERNING THE MOST EXALTED TRINITY AND THE
    CATHOLIC FAITH AND PROVIDING THAT NO ONE
    SHALL DARE TO PUBLICLY OPPOSE THEM.
    1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to the people of the City of Constantinople.
    We desire that all peoples subject to Our benign Empire shall live under the same religion that the Divine Peter, the Apostle, gave to the Romans, and which the said religion declares was introduced by himself, and which it is well known that the Pontiff Damascus, and Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity, embraced; that is to say, in accordance with the rules of apostolic discipline and the evangelical doctrine, we should believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute a single Deity, endowed with equal majesty, and united in the Holy Trinity.
    (1) We order all those who follow this law to assume the name of Catholic Christians, and considering others as demented and insane, We order that they shall bear the infamy of heresy; and when the Divine vengeance which they merit has been appeased, they shall afterwards be punished in accordance with Our resentment, which we have acquired from the judgment of Heaven.
    Dated at Thessalonica, on the third of the Kalends of March, during the Consulate of Gratian, Consul for the fifth time, and Theodosius.
    2. The Same Emperors to Eutropius, Praetorian Prefect.
    Let no place be afforded to heretics for the conduct of their ceremonies, and let no occasion be offered for them to display the insanity of their obstinate minds. Let all persons know that if any privilege has been fraudulently obtained by means of any rescript whatsoever, by persons of this kind, it will not be valid. Let all bodies of heretics be prevented from holding unlawful assemblies, and let the name of the only and the greatest God be celebrated everywhere, and let the observance of the Nicene Creed, recently transmitted to Our ancestors, and firmly established by the testimony and practice of Divine Religion, always remain secure.
    (1) Moreover, he who is an adherent of the Nicene Faith, and a true believer in the Catholic religion, should be understood to be one [pg. 10] who believes that Almighty God and Christ, the son of God, are one person, God of God, Light of Light; and let no one, by rejection, dishonor the Holy Spirit, whom we expect, and have received from the Supreme Parent of all things, in whom the sentiment of a pure and undefiled faith flourishes, as well as the belief in the undivided substance of a Holy Trinity, which true believers indicate by the Greek word These things, indeed do not require further proof, and should be respected.
    (2) Let those who do not accept those doctrines cease to apply the name of true religion to their fraudulent belief; and let them be branded with their open crimes, and, having been removed from the threshhold of all churches, be utterly excluded from them, as We forbid all heretics to hold unlawful assemblies within cities. If, however, any seditious outbreak should be attempted, We order them to be driven outside the the walls of the City, with relentless violence, and We direct that all Catholic Churches, throughout the entire world, shall be placed under the control of the orthodox bishops who have embraced the Nicene Creed.
    Given at Constantinople, on the fourth of the ides of January, under the Consulate of Flavius Eucharius and Flavius Syagrius.
    3. The Emperor Martian to Palladius, Praetorian Prefect.
    No one, whether he belongs to the clergy, the army, or to any other condition of men, shall, with a view to causing a tumult and giving occasion to treachery, attempt to discuss the Christian religion publicly in the presence of an assembled and listening crowd; for he commits an injury against the most reverend Synod who publicly contradicts what has once been decided and properly established; as those matters relative to the Christian faith have been settled by the priests who met at Chalcedony by Our order, and are known to be in conformity with the apostolic explanations and conclusions of the three hundred and eight Holy Fathers assembled in Nicea, and the hundred and fifty who met in this Imperial City; for the violators of this law shall not go unpunished, because they not only oppose the true faith, but they also profane its venerated mysteries by engaging in contests of this kind with Jews and Pagans. Therefore, if any person who has ventured to publicly discuss religious matters is a member of the clergy, he shall be removed from his order; if he is a member of the army, he shall be degraded; and any others who are guilty of this offence, who are freemen, shall be banished from this most Sacred City, and shall be subjected to the punishment prescribed by law according to the power of the court; and if they are slaves, they shall undergo severest penalty.
    Given at Constantinople, on the eighth of the Ides of February, under the consulship of Patricius.
    4. John, Bishop of the City of Rome, to his most Illustrious and Merciful Son Justinian.
    Among the conspicuous reasons for praising your wisdom and gentleness, Most Christian of Emperors, and one which radiates light [pg. 11]as a star, is the fact that through love of the Faith, and actuated by zeal for charity, you, learned in ecclesiastical discipline, have preserved reverence for the See of Rome, and have subjected all things to its authority, and have given it unity. The following precept was communicated to its founder, that is to say, the first of the Apostles, by the mouth of the Lord, namely: "Feed my lambs."
    This See is indeed the head of all churches, as the rules of the Fathers and the decrees of the Emperors assert, and the words of your most reverend piety testify. It is therefore claimed that what the Scriptures state, namely, "By Me Kings reign, and the Powers dispense justice;" will be accomplished in you. For there is nothing which shines with a more brilliant lustre than genuine faith when displayed by a prince, since there is nothing which prevents destruction as true religion does, for as both of them have reference to the Author of Life and Light, they disperse darkness and prevent apostasy. Wherefore, Most Glorious of Princes, the Divine Power is implored by the prayers of all to preserve your piety in this ardor for the Faith, in this devotion of your mind, and in this zeal for true religion, without failure, during your entire existence. For we believe that this is for the benefit of the Holy Churches, as it was written, "The king rules with his lips," and again, "The heart of the King is in the hand of God, and it will incline to whatever side God wishes"; that is to say, that He may confirm your empire, and maintain your kingdoms for the peace of the Church and the unity of religion; guard their authority, and preserve him in that sublime tranquillity which is so grateful to him; and no small change is granted by the Divine Power through whose agency a divided church is not afflicted by any griefs or subject to any reproaches. For it is written, "A just king, who is upon his throne, has no reason to apprehend any misfortune."
    We have received with all due respect the evidences of your serenity, through Hypatius and Demetrius, most holy men, my brothers and fellow-bishops, from whose statements we have learned that you have promulgated an Edict addressed to your faithful people, and dictated by your love of the Faith, for the purpose of overthrowing the designs of heretics, which is in accordance with the evangelical tenets, and which we have confirmed by our authority with the consent of our brethren and fellow bishops, for the reason that it is in conformity with the apostolic doctrine.
    The following is the text of the letter of the Emperor Justinian, Victorious, Pious, Happy, Renowned, Triumphant, always Augustus, to John, Patriarch, and most Holy Archbishop of the fair City of Rome:
    With honor to the Apostolic See, and to your Holiness, which is, and always has been remembered in Our prayers, both now and formerly, and honoring your happiness, as is proper in the case of one who is considered as a father, We hasten to bring to the knowledge of Your Holiness everything relating to the condition of the Church, as We have always had the greatest desire to preserve the unity of your Apostolic See, and the condition of the Holy Churches of God, as they [pg. 12] exist at the present time, that they may remain without disturbance or opposition. Therefore, We have exerted Ourselves to unite all the priests of the East and subject them to the See of Your Holiness, and hence the questions which have at present arisen, although they are manifest and free from doubt, and according to the doctrines of your Apostolic See, are constantly firmly observed and preached by all priests, We have still considered it necessary that they should be brought to the attention of Your Holiness. For we do not suffer anything which has reference to the state of the Church, even though what causes difficulty may be clear and free from doubt, to be discussed without being brought to the notice of Your Holiness, because you are the head of all the Holy Churches, for We shall exert Ourselves in every way (as has already been stated), to increase the honor and authority of your See.
    ________________________________________
    [pg. 125]
    One Hundred and Thirty-First New Constitution.
    The Emperor Justinian to Peter, Most Glorious Imperial Praetorian Prefect.
    PREFACE.
    We enact the present law with reference to ecclesiastical rules and privileges and other subjects in which holy churches and religious establishments are intrusted.
    Chapter I.
    Concerning Four Holy Councils.
    Therefore We order that the sacred, ecclesiastical rules which were adopted and confirmed by the four Holy Councils, that is to say, that of the three hundred and eighteen bishops held at Nicea, that of the one hundred and fifty bishops held at Constantinople, the first one of Ephesus, where Nestorius was condemned, and the one assembled at Chalcedon, where Eutyches and Nestorius were anathematized, shall be considered as laws. We accept the dogmas of these four Councils as sacred writings, and observe their rules as legally effective.
    Chapter II.
    Concerning The Precedence of Partriarchs.
    Hence, in accordance with the provisions of these Councils, We order that the Most Holy Pope of ancient Rome shall hold the first rank of all the Pontiffs, but the Most Blessed Archbishop of Constantinople, or New Rome, shall occupy the second place after the Holy Apostolic See of ancient Rome, which shall take precedence over all other sees.
    ________________________________________
    Source: Corpus Juris Civilis (The Civil Law, the Code of Justinian), by S.P. Scott, A.M., published by the Central Trust Company, Cincinnati, copyright 1932, Volume 12 [of 17], pages 9-12, 125.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  2. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Keith,

    Very interesting reading indeed. Thanks for posting it.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Dead men don't write histories.
    Dead men don't form earthly churches.
    The RCC killed those whose doctrines
    conflicted the RCC.
    Dead men don't write histories.
    Dead men don't form earthly churches.
     
  4. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    "Who and Where"-- NT Testament Assemblies--4th cent:

    Jesus told his disciples(first assembly): "You will be witnesses of me in Judea, Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth." See Acts 1:1-9. See also Acts 8:1-12. This is the "who and where' of the first century.

    That these scriptures were fulfilled is evident. The scripture refers to churches in specific places: Jerusalem, Samaria, Corinth, Ephesus, Thessalonica, Galatia, Philippi, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea--to name a few. These were real assemblies with real people in real places.

    The specifics(x-y coordinates)in the 4th century may vary, but the point is: the true assemblies have been in every century--along with the "unlawful" assemblies. This is all fulfulment of scripture: "On this rock, I will build my assembly, the gates of hell shall not prevail", "I will never leave you nor forsake you"--there are many more.

    To say that the apostates of the 4th cent who were "propped" by the Roman Empire were the true assemblies of God, is a denial of the promises of God.

    "Let God be found true--
    And every man--a liar."

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True - but Matt seems focused on trying to find out if the RCC was successfull in "exterminating ALL" who opposed them or where "some" successful in preserving the truth of the Gospel. And if so - were they ALSO successful at recording history in such a way as to have it preserved OUTSIDE of the RCC monks and libraries.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Keith - those were some great quotes!
     
  7. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    That the New Testament Assembly will be in every generation is proven by Scripture.

    That the New Testament Assembly will be persecuted is proven by Scripture.

    The above is corroborated(not that it needs to be) by secular history--not necessarily in the same verbiage. "Historic gems" are gleaned from the writings of the enemies of Christ--the wolves in sheeps clothing. Look for the heretics--the New Testament Churches are usually found there. (not all heretics are true followers)

    One of the proofs of the above is gleaned from the fact that translations of the scripture headed for the common man were banned and burned. This is part of the fulfillment of Mt. 16:18--the gates of Hell assailing the New Testament Church. Satan does not want the truth going out to the people--he wants them to stay in creeds and cathechisms where he can control men's souls.

    The Truth will set one free--free indeed--from the yoke of bondage of salvation by works.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  8. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

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    The following is a chapter from the book, FACTS OF FAITH, by Christian Edwardson

    MAKING AMERICA CATHOLIC

    THE Roman hierarchy knew that the older Protestants, who had read about the persecutions of the Dark Ages, and who knew some of the inside workings of the papal church, would never become Catholics. Rome’s hope lay in capturing the younger generation. If the Papacy could cover up those dark pages of its history, when it waded in the blood of martyrs, and could appear in the beautiful modern dress of a real champion for liberty, as a lover of science, art, and education, it would appeal to the American youth, and the battle would be won.

    The Jesuits, who through years of experience in Europe, have become experts in molding young minds, are now establishing schools everywhere, that are patronized by thousands of Protestant youth. They have also undertaken the delicate task of Romanizing the textbooks of our public schools, and books of reference, in order to cover up their past, and to whitewash the Dark Ages. That Romanists desire to cover up their past record of bloody persecution is acknowledged by that honorable Roman Catholic author, Alfred Baudrillart, Rector of the Catholic Institute of Paris. After giving a frank statement of the many persecutions of which his church is guilty, he says in the words of Mgr. d’Hulst: “Indeed, even among our friends and our brothers we find those who dare not look this problem in the face. They ask permission from the Church to ignore or even to deny all those facts and institutions in the past which have made orthodoxy compulsory.’’’-’’ The Catholic Church; the Renaissance and Protestantism,’’ Alfred Archeveque Cardinal BaudrilIart, pp. I83, 184.


    ROMANIZING TEXTBOOKS

    In the first place, all general histories used in our public schools and high schools had to be revised to eliminate every bishops as before. The priest’s education is to be thoroughly revised and modernized-with special attention to modern propaganda methods. In addition there will be established in each country a central bureau, responsible only to Rome, to combat red agitation with every political weapon available .... The church must fight, and at once. “Coughlin has shown us the way of getting at the modern man. He has embarrassed us by showing and using the political power of the church so openly .... We know how to tackle America today, and that is our most important problem at the moment.

    “Pacelli is contacting the American cardinals and leading Catholic personalities,... to explain the Vatican’s plan for the new crusade .... The Catholic political organizations in the large cities, like Tammany Hall, will give the church a good lever. Those contactsare also being carefully inspected by the pope’s minister.

    “The Vatican itself resembles a general staff headquarters preparing plans and arms for a big offensive. Since the time of the Counter- Reformation, churchmen say, no such extensive reorganization of personnel and propaganda methods has been undertaken. The whole world-wide net of Catholic organizations and suborganizations is being contacted directly from Rome and cleared for action.

    The church is to be adjusted to modern political, social, and cultural conditions”-P. 10, col. 3, 4, used by permission. This article speaks of Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli, then papal secretary of state, coming from the Vatican to effect the above. mentioned reorganization. He toured the United States “in a chartered airplane.” Christian Science Monitor says: “The visit of a high Roman prelate to the United States on the eve of an election is as unprecedented as it is delicate”-Oct. 2, 1926.

    This Catholic plan of conquest was well understood years ago. An illustration in Harper’s Weekly of October 1, 1870, pictured the pope pointing to America as “The Promised Land,” also “The Jesuits and the British Press,” by Michael J. F. McCarthy).

    Now the “Catholic Action” is focused on America, not in an antagonistic way, but quietly, in wisely planned, systematically organized, and well directed efforts along numerous lines, so as to gain favor among Protestants, and not to be suspected as propaganda. And, remarkable as it may sound, Protestant leaders and people are totally asleep on the Catholic question, even more so than the Huguenots were in France before the St. Bartholomew’s Massacre.

    Dr. E. Boyd Barrett, for many years a Jesuit, and still a Roman Catholic, as far as the author knows, has the following to say about the plans of his church: “In theory, Catholic Action is the work and service of lay Catholics in the cause of religion, under the guidance of the bishops. In practice it is the Catholic group fighting their way to control America”-”Rome Stoops to Conquer,” p. 15. New York: 1935. “The effort, the fight, may be drawn out. It may last for five or ten years. Even if it last for twenty-what is twenty years in the life of Rome? The fight must be fought to a finish-opposition must be worn down if it cannot be swept away. Rome’s immortal destiny hangs on the outcome. That destiny overshadows the land. “And in the fight, as she has ever fought when battles were most desperate in the past, Rome will use steel, and gold, and silvery lies. Rome will stoop to conquer.”-Id., pp. 266, 267.

    In a communication from Vatican City, published in the Saint Paul Pioneer Press, November 4, 1936, we read: “Pope Pius feels that the United States is the ideal base for Catholicism’s great drive .... “The Catholic Movement, Rome’s militant organization numbering millions all over the world, will be marshaled direct from Rome by Monsignor Pizzardo-next to Pacelli the Holy See’s shrewdest diplomat and politician-instead of by the localtrace of the objectionable features from their pages. Plain historical facts of the Middle Ages,-such as the popes’ interference with public government (as in the case of Henry IV, Emperor of Germany, A. D. 1077, and King John of England, A. D. 1213); the persecution of Waldenses, Albigenses, and Huguenots; the Inquisition; the sale of indulgences; and the Reformation,-all had to be eliminated or rewritten so as to exonerate the Papacy, and brand its opponents simply as political offenders and revolutionists, who suffered at the hand of the civil government, instead of being persecuted by the Church for their religion.

    Such radical changes could never have been accomplished so quietly if Protestantism had not been asleep. At times it became necessary to create public sentiment against a certain textbook through newspaper articles written by some learned Catholic professor, and then pressure was brought to bear on school boards to eliminate it, substituting for it a Romanized book. Thus Swinton’s “Outlines of History” was thrown out of the schools, and “Anderson’s History” was blacklisted, but later revised according to Catholic wishes, and brought back to take the place of Swinton’s.

    Myers’s “Medieval and Modern History” was also censored. At first the author refused to change it, claiming “history is history,” but later it was revised and came into quite general use for a time. Not all of this was done in the dark. As one example of protest we refer the reader to Senate Document on Public Hearing before the United States Committee on Education and Labor, Friday, February 15, 1889, and Friday, February 22, 1889, on “Senate Resolution No. 86: Proposing an Amendment to the Constitution of the United States Respecting Establishment of Religion and Free Public Schools,” which unmasks some of this work. We shall now point out two of the vital changes made in our textbooks:

    (1) The Catholic Church will never acknowledge the Reformation of the sixteenth century as a reform, but brands it as a “revolt” against the authority of the pope, and as a “revolution.” A sure earmark, therefore, of all Romanized textbooks is the fact that they never speak of the Reformation as a work of reform but as “the Protestant Revolt,” “the Protestant Revolution,” “the so-called Reformation,” or “what is called the Reformation.” Let any one look it up in the schoolbooks used by his children, and see for himself.

    To give the readers who may not have seen the textbooks used in our schools today an idea of what the Protestant children are taught, we shall take the “History of Western Europe,” by Professor J. II. Robinson, as an example. It has the following chapters on the Reformation of the sixteenth century: chapter 24, “Germany Before the Protestant Revolt”; chapter 25, “Martin Luther and His Revolt Against the Church”; chapter 26, “Course of the Protestant Revolt in Germany”; chapter 27, “The Protestant Revolt in Switzerland and England.” Chapter 25 says: “As Luther became a confessed revolutionist, he began to find friends among other revolutionists and reformers.”-P. 393. Chapter 28 takes up the effort of the Catholics to destroy the Reformation by a counterreform, by the work of the Jesuits, and the bloody persecution of Protestants in Spain, in the Netherlands, and France. This chapter is entitled: “The Catholic Reformation,” and yet it comes the farthest from deserving the title of reformation of all the above- mentioned chapters. In these Romanized textbooks the historical facts of the Middle Ages are entirely reversed. The way the last-mentioned chapter extols the Jesuits shows who has put their stamp on the book. Senator Thomas E. Watson truthfully says:

    “In the public schools the Catholics have stealthily introduced textbooks written by Jesuits; and your children are being taught that the Roman church was misunderstood in the past; that its doctrines are not fatal to humanity and gospel religion; that its record is not saturated with the blood of innocent millions, murdered by papal persecutors, and that there never was such a monstrosity as the alleged sale of papal pardons of sins. “Educate youth in this Catholic way, and the consequences are logical.”-”Roman Catholics in America Falsifying History and Poisoning the Minds of Protestant School Children,” p. 5. Thompson, Ga.: 1928.

    SALE OF INDULGENCES

    Histories used in the public schools in the United States up to the year 1900 were opposed by the Roman Catholic Church on the ground that they were not stating the truth about
    “indulgences." These histories simply stated that Martin Luther began the Reformation by opposing Tetzel’s sale of indulgences, which is a historical fact. “An Introduction to the History of Western Europe,” by Professor J. H. Robinson, says: “It is a common mistake of Protestants to suppose that the indulgence was forgiveness granted beforehand for sins to be committed in the future. There is absolutely no foundation for this idea”-P. 391. Ginn and Co.: 1903.

    This statement is copied on page 311 in “A General History of Europe,” by Robinson, Breasted, and Smith, a textbook quite generally used of late. We shall leave it with the reader to judge whether such statements actually represent the Protestant conception of “indulgences,” or whether they are part of a program to cover up historical facts; and we would respectfully ask: Are not American youth entitled to know the unvarnished facts of history?

    The historical facts about “indulgences,” gathered from unquestionable sources, are found on pages 162-172 of this book. It is here shown that the idea of “indulgences” had so degenerated between the eleventh and the sixteenth centuries, that they were actually sold for money. Tetzel’s “Indulgences” read: I “absolve thee... from all thy sins, transgressions and excesses.., and I restore thee.., to that innocence and purity which thou possessedst at baptism; so that, when thou diest, the gates of punishment shall be shut, and the gates of the paradise of delight shall be open.”- Coxe’s “House of Austria,” Vol. I, p. 385. London: George Bell and Sons, 1906.

    REVISING BOOKS OF REFERENCE

    The next step in the papal plan was to revise all books of reference, such as encyclopedias, dictionaries, and larger historical works, so as to mold the minds not only of pupils but also of teachers and of preachers. An example of this is seen in the revision of the New International Encyclopedia. The editor of the Catholic Mirror (at that time the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons), in a lengthy editorial, dated October 28, 1905, tells of how the publishers of that Encyclopedia cooperated with the Jesuits in revising it. He quoted the following letter from the Rev. Thomas J. Campbell, S. J., which he had just received: “Dodd, Mead and Co. sent their representatives to us, and not only expressed a desire to avoid misstatements in their encyclopedia, but asked for some one to excise whatever might be offensive .... Mr. Conde B. Pallen took the matter in hand, and was afforded full liberty to revise and correct not only the topics which dealt professedly with Catholic subjects but those also which might have even an indirect bearing on them .... The firm has done all in its power to make it acceptable to Catholics.”- Quoted in “Liberty,” Vol. V, No. 3, pp. 34, 35. Washington, D. C., I910.

    After this was done, every effort was made to get this New International Encyclopedia into the hands of all Protestant ministers in this country, who were unaware of its Romanlzed features. Its molding influence was soon seen in the striking similarity in viewpoint (on many subjects) between the Roman theology and that of the Protestant pulpit and press, and this is becoming more so now after practically all encyclopedias have been Romanized. Even Webster’s Dictionary has not been allowed to speak its old familiar truths any more. We read: “Time was when complaint was common that injustice was done to the Catholics in ‘Webster’s Dictionary.’ There is no room for such a thing in the new ‘Webster’s International Dictionary,’ issued by G. and C. Merriam Co., Springfield, Mass., because Vicar-General Callaghan, of the diocese of Little Rock, has revised and edited everything appertaining to the church.” -” Freeman’s Journal” of New York, May 28, 1892. Since then a Catholic official has been regularly connected with the editorial staff, whenever a new revision was made, as can be seen in the preface of later editions. Suppose, in the next encyclopedia, we ask brewery officials to edit everything pertaining to temperance and the liquor question, and ask the officials of Wall Street to edit all that pertains to capital and labor, wouldwe then get a more correct and unbiased representation of these subjects? We ask why, then, should Roman Catholic officials edit everything pertaining to the Protestant controversy with Rome?

    At the First American Catholic Missionary Congress, held at Chicago, November 17, 1908, Dr. William McGinnis outlined the program of the International Catholic Truth Society for making America Catholic:

    (1) by Romanizing our schoolbooks,
    (2) by revising our books of reference,
    (3) by controlling the daily press,
    (4) by capturing the libraries. He said in part:
    “A few years ago the publishers of an encyclopedia in twelve volumes entered the office of the Truth Society and said: ‘We realize there are many misstatements and errors regarding things Catholic in this work, but we put the whole edition in your hands and will accept every correction you make and every addition which you wish to insert.’... So, likewise, one of the largest publishing houses of the United States, a house that supplies perhaps one third of the textbooks used in the public schools of America, asked that certain books might be examined and erroneous statements and unjust charges against the Church be corrected .... And we are happy to say that in practically every case these misrepresentations of the Church that otherwise would have gone into the minds of millions of children were courteously corrected by gentlemanly authors.”-” The Two Great American Catholic Missionary Congresses,” pp. 427, 428. Chicago: J. S. Hyland and Co., 1914.

    Many Protestant parents would not send their children to Catholic parochial schools, but they will allow them to be taught the same thing from Romanized textbooks, without any protest!

    We ask, What made the More-mentioned publishers so anxious to have the Catholics revise the public schoolbooks and encyclopedias, which they intended to publish? Why did they not go to some Protestant organization to have the books revised? Was it because Protestants are not educated? Certainly not! But these publishers knew from experience, that, unless the books were Romanized, Catholic societies would stir up such opposition against their use, that it would result in financial loss to the publishers. Dr. McGinnis tells the secret when he relates how he had urged the Knights of Columbus to “wake up” and “form a committee,” to examine the “histories of education in use in high schools and normal schools.” He says: “The spirit of Knighthood was not dead in that Council, the subject was investigated, the book I had quoted from was the textbook of the class, and, after much discussion, it was removed from the curriculum of the school.”-Id., pp. 423, 424.

    Any one who will take the trouble to examine the textbooks used in our public schools before 1900, and compare them with those used after this Romanizing propaganda began, wi1l discover the fact that the Romanizing features have been introduced gradually into a series of textbooks, the one taking the place of the other as fast as the public could assimilate the Catholic sentiments and phraseology, and the same is true regarding books of reference.

    MUZZLING THE PUBLIC PRESS

    Dr. McGinnis also spoke of their plans regarding the daily papers. He said: “We may consider briefly the program of the International Catholic Truth Society in reference to two great agencies in the formation of the minds and hearts of the great American people, — the press and the public libraries.

    “Our daily press... mold the thought and influence the will of the country .... We do demand that the great Catholic Church, in her saving doctrines and in her marvelous activities, should be brought more prominently before the American public.”-Id., p. 419.

    Dr. McGinnis further stated that arrangements had been made with the Vatican for Catholic reporters all over the world to furnish material for the “Truth Society” to be used in the daily press, and then he says: “With a membership of two or three thousand scholarly, zealous priests and laymen, and the headquarters of the Society acting as a clearing house, calumnies would not remain unanswered, misstatements of doctrines would be corrected.”-Id., pp. 420, 421.

    “We realize, moreover, that refutations and corrections, valuable though they be, are not sufficient. We want to carry the campaign a little farther. We want to make of the press of this country a positive agency in the dissemination of Catholic ideas .... We are now furnishing on the first and third Sundays of each month one column or a column and a half of positive Catholic matter to daily papers .... But the ‘Notes and Comments’... deal with such topics as the conversion of some distinguished scholar, the life work of a recently deceased Catholic who was eminent in the domain of physical science, archeological discoveries bearing upon Christian doctrine, important congresses abroad .... If the demands of our people prove that the new feature is appreciated, the ‘service’ will become weekly, and it will bring light and sympathy for things Catholic to many millions of readers.”-Id., pp. 421,422.

    “The demands” must have proved successful, for instead of this “new feature” appearing weekly, articles and notes seem to appear almost daily. Though it is legitimate for religious denominations to make use of the public press, for them to muzzle the freedom of the press is not legitimate! When large religious organizations parade their great number of adherents and bring pressure to bear on the press, threatening nonsupport if the other side appears in its columns, while they monopolize them with their own propaganda, such organizations lose the respect of thinking people.

    CAPTURING THE PUBLIC LIBRARIES

    At the before-mentioned Catholic Congress plans were also laid for making the public libraries agencies in their propaganda. Dr. McGinnis says: “Another force, second only to the school and the press in shaping the thoughts of the nation, is the public library system of the United States .... I ask why, in the name of the God of truth, is the great Catholic Church excluded from the shelves of the public libraries of the United States?... Create a strong, legitimate demand for Catholic literature, and the public libraries will meet the demand.”- Id., pp.422,423.

    But how did that Congress propose to “create” this strong “demand” for Catholic books? Here is their scheme: They will supply their people with lists of books to be asked for at the libraries, and when several hundred or thousand people have called for the same books, it will create a demand. “The demand for such literature must be brought to the public libraries. We wish to emphasize the fact that the demand must be made in good faith-the books are called for at the library because the man wants to read them. The International Catholic Truth Society will supply general and special lists of books, and the Spiritual Director... will... designate appropriate works for individual members. From this widespread bona fide demand for Catholic works at public libraries three results will follow. [It will help the members.] Their work will be instrumental in placing these books within the reach of the great non-Catholic American public, who will thus have some opportunity to find out what the Church’s doctrines and practices really are, and finally the increased circulation of such literature will be a well-deserved and muchneeded stimulus to Catholic writers.”-Id., p. 424. See also “Catholic Digest,” March, 1937, pp. 126, 127, and “America,” September 13, 1913, pp. 547, 548.

    Mr. Michael J. F. McCarty, of England, gives us some interesting facts regarding a similar work done by Jesuits in England. He says that they suppress books of Protestant authors, and bring to the front those of Catholics, and as a result of this systematic work, he says: “Many Protestant authors are forced to speak favorably and kindly of Romanism .... The publication of books containing friendly allusibn to Protestant Christianity has almost ceased in England, [while the other kind of books] floods the country.”-”The Jesuits and the British Press,” p. 52. Edinburgh and London: 1910.

    But, in addition to this, the Jesuits always have a man, either a priest or a layman, on the committee of almost every public library in Great Britain. “The Jesuits’ man comes provided with two lists, a black list, which includes every well-known book, ancient and modern, adverse to Romanism; and a white list of new books especially [avorable to Romanism which he submits beforehand to the librarian, and eventually succeeds in getting placed in the library.”-Pp. 50, 51.

    It is quite evident from our investigation of the facts that the Jesuits are the same in America as in England. Besides this, the few remaining books from the days when it was not so unpopular to state the unvarnished facts about medieval history have been diminishing in number by being worn out or purposely destroyed.

    CENSORSHIP OF BOOKS

    Those who write histories today have more source matter on ancient history, but less on medieval, than historians had four hundred years ago; for after the Reformation had fully aroused the papal church to action, her emissaries, especially the vigilant Jesuits, searched out and destroyed every evidence that was damaging to her. When Bishop Gilbert Burnet, D. D., prepared to write his “History of the English Reformation,” he became surprised, while searching among court records and public registers, to find so much missing, till he finally discovered the cause. He says: “In the search I made of the Rolls and other offices, I wondered much to miss several commissions, patents, and other writings, which by clear evidence I knew were granted, and yet none of them appeared on record.

    “But as I continued down my search to the fourth year of Queen Mary, I found in the twelfth roll of that year, a commission which cleared all my former doubts, and by which I saw what was become of the things I had so anxiously searched after. We have heard of the expurgation of books practiced in the Church of Rome; but it might have been imagined that public registers and records would have been safe; yet lest these should have been afterwards confessors, it was resolved they should then be martyrs; for on the 29th of December, in the fourth year of her reign, a commission was issued out under the great seal to Bonner, Bishop of London, Cole, Dean of St. Paul’s, and Martine, a doctor of the civil law, [which commanded the destruction of] divers compts, books, scrolls, instruments....
    “When I saw this, I soon knew which way so many writings had gone”-”History of the Reformation of the Church of England,’’ 2- vol. ed., Vol. I, Preface, p. xiii. London: 1880.

    Let no one, therefore, say that statements in older histories are not true because we cannot now find sources to prove them. The reader may not know that back of all this activity stands the Roman Curia, one department of which is the Sacred Congregation of the Index, which meets at Rome on stated days to decide what books are forbidden, and to make lists of them, called “The Index of Prohibited Books.”* The writer has examined two editions of this “Index,” one early edition, and their latest one of 1930 by Pope Plus XI. Some books are permanently forbidden, while others are forbidden until certain corrections are made in them, which explains the revisions of our schoolbooks, for the “Index” says:

    “Can. 1396. Books condemned by the Holy See are prohibited all over the world and in whatever language into which they may have been translated.

    “Can. 1397, Sec. 1. It is the duty of all the faithful, particularly of clerics, or those holding high positions and noted for their learning, to denounce any book, they may consider dangerous, to the local Ordinaries, or to the Holy See ....

    “Sec. 3. Those to whom such denunciations are made are bound in conscience not to reveal the names of the accusers.

    “Sec. 4. Local Ordinaries, either directly themselves, or through the agency of capable priests, are in duty bound to keep a close watch on the books that are published, or sold, within their territory ....

    “Can. 1398, Sec. 1. The condemnation of a book entails the prohibition, without especial permission, either to publish, to read, to keep, to sell, to translate it, or in any way to pass it on to others.

    “Sec. 2. A book which has been prohibited in any way may not be republished, unless, after the necessary corrections have been made.”-”Index,” of 1930, pp. xvi, xvii. Vatican Polyglot Press.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say about the “Censorship of Books”: “In general, censorship of books is a supervision of the press in order to prevent any abuse of it. “The reverse of censorship is freedom of the press.”- Vol. III, p.

    This “supervision of the press” extends also to articles written in magazines and newspapers, and among the special organizations working in this field is the International Catholic Truth Society, and the Catholic International Associated Press. Reporting the Louisville federation convention of the latter, Michael Kenny, S. J., in America (a Jesuit weekly) for August 31, 1912, says of their Catholic Press Bureau:

    “We have it in our power to compel our papers, the thinking machines of the people, to tell the truth and refrain from transmitting slanders on Catholic matters. We can prevent the wells at which the people drink from being poisoned. We can, follow-lng the lead of the Austrian Catholic Congress, establish a Catholic International Associated Press, and to accomplish this object every Catholic of the right spirit, reading in the daily papers calumnies of our religion and the most brazen justification of the robber bands who drive our religious from their homes and confiscate their property, should be willing to contribute a tithe of his possessions. All this and more can be accomplished by federated action .... Marching shoulder-to shoulder with the spirit of soldiers on the battlefield at the call of the Church, we can successfully combat the organizations of her enemies and make this an era of Catholic manhood.”-”America,” August 31, 19I2, p. 486, article by M. Kenny, S. J.

    As a result of this organized effort no newspapers in the United States will
    accept any news that reflects unfavorably on the Catholic Church or its propaganda in this country, while news unfavorable to Protestants is
    printed.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  9. Link

    Link New Member

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    Matt,

    I think you have a point about people aruging from silence of history. I would like to find the answer to some of your questions.

    One thing I would like to point out is that around the 6th or 7th century, there was an 'iconoclastic' movement against the use of relics in the church, at least in the east. Considering the widespread worship of ingraved images in the Roman Catholic Church, it is refreshing to see in history that some opposed this. Maybe it is one of the reasons the eastern church members only went so far as to bow down to two dimensional images, rather than to graven images, in their use of icons. Those who disagree with iconoclasts may wish to attribute the movement to Islam.

    I have also read an interpretation of history which attributes Nestor's comments that got him branded as a heretic as an overstated case against Maryolatry.

    Which brings me to another issue-- if we do get our understanding of doctrine from scripture rather than from the Roman Catholic Church, how can we reject all historical 'heretics' as if they were not true Christians.

    The Arians rejected the deity of Christ. But something I notice from scripture is that the statement that one has to believe in or properly understand Christ's deity is absent from many presentations of the Gospel. When Peter presented the Gospel to the highly monotheistic Jews in Acts 2, he did not tell them that they had to believe in the deity of Christ to be saved. While Paul makes some strong statements about his belief in Christ's deity that fit within, and help us form, our concept of orthodoxy on the issue; he does not list belief in Christ deity as a requirement for salvation in his presentations of the Gospel in Acts or in Romans, his longest epistle that lays out his teachings on salvation.

    If we disagree with the Arians, does that mean we reject them as brethren? And honestly, can we say that a Nestorian's understanding of the deity of Christ is any less accurate than the understanding of many laymen who sit on the pew in our churches? If you ask some people to describe the trinity, they will describe it as being like steam, water, and ice. Other people will describe it like the parts of a boiled egg. I even heard one youth pastor compare the concept to Siamese twins. If we can accept laymen as brethren based on their faith in Christ, and not their mastery of theological concepts, can we not acept the idea that some Arians may have been brethren in the faith?

    How many Arians (or Ebionites perhaps?) were there among the tens of thousands of early believers in Jerusalem?
     
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Keith, thank you at least for citing some primary source documents - you're the first person on this thread who has!

    I do however take issue with some of the conclusions arising from your source material - namely that the groups cited as heretics by the three Emperors quoted were part of this 'true alternative church' that everyone seems so keen on proving existed after Constantine. Let's look at some of them:-

    The Valentinians - Gnostic dualists, who believed that the earth was created by a 'Demiurge' (false god) and that matter was evil. Believed in two classes of believers - the 'psychics' or ordinary believers and the 'pneumatics' or spirit-filled believers (similar to what some extreme charismatics and Pentecostals believe today)

    Marcionites - followers of Marcion who believed that the OT should be excluded from the canon of Scipture and that the NT should be just Paul's epistles. Believed that the God of the OT was evil (similar to the Valentinian's demiurge) and different to the good God of the NT

    Manichees - another gnostic dualist cult

    Paulinists/ Paulicians - ditto; kind of the successors to Marcion also

    Albigensians/ Cathars - again gnostic dualists with similarities this time to the Valentinians as believing in two classes of believers, the second, elite group in this case being the 'perfecti' who had received the 'sacrament' of the consolamentum, which then required the 'perfecti' to fast until death

    Novatians - schismatics rather than heretics, and the only groups I would agree were Christians, albeit not in communion with the Catholic-Orthodox Church

    So, as you can see from the above, there is no evidence of any non-heretical groups apart from the Novatians prior to the Waldenses from primary source documents eg: Milton lived some 1300 years after the period under consideration!

    Link, the problem I have with your suggestions is, as illustrated by my list of groups above, that once you throw the baby out with the bathwater in rejecting what the Church was up to the in 4th century, you admit all sorts of heretical groups as 'Christian' such as the Arians and the gnostics on the simple basis that they were 'associated with Christianity but not Catholic'. (You also, incidentally, call into question the canon of Scripture by this methodology, but that's another matter ;) )

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  11. Link

    Link New Member

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    Constantine is the 'whipping boy' for a lot of church traditions. He was an influential person in history, and his reign was a historical turning point.

    In house church circles, some people think that during Constantine's reign, Christians suddenly started meeting in houses, adopted liturgical worship, and started praying to saints. The idea of an overnight switch from informal house church Christianity to formal Roman Catholicism during the reign of Constantine does seem unrealistic, imo.

    There were written liturgies before Constantine. Synagogue liturgy may have had an effect on Christians, some of whom were Jewish, before Constantine. Gregory of Armenia apparently was involved in choosing or developing liturgies for Armenia.

    Greogory is also said to have been involved with building a church building before Constantine. There were some church buildings before Constantine in Armenia and elsewhere. Armenia was 'Christianized' a decade or two before Constantine's reign.

    Constantine was probably very important in the shift from meeting in homes to meeting in the church building. Christians may have met primarily in homes in his day. But there were also houses that had evolved from being residents to being used just as church meeting houses. (St. Peter's home if I am not mistaken may be an example of this.) Constantine's contribution would have been in making church buildings on the model of a Roman civic building.

    Putting money into the church brought other changes as well. I have read that pagans flooded the church during Constantine's time, bringing in their practices and seeking to become priests to get a salary. I do not know if this is accurate or not, as the source of this contained many innaccuracies. There may be some truth to it, though I do not know if all these changes occurred during Constantine's lifetime.
     
  12. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes, there is evidence of liturgical use as far back as the NT itself. The earliest extant church building is at Dura-Europos on the Euphrates (close to Armenia); it dates from the 3rd century and is basically a private house consisting of two rooms knocked into one plus a baptistery tacked on to one end. It would have held a few dozen worshippers.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  13. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Since when does "The Assembly" have a connection with a building?

    The Apostle Paul, circa, Acts 17:24,25 said that God does not dwell in temples made with hands.

    Look for "The Faith Once for all delivered to the Saints", not the buildings where they may have met. Their trail is written in blood. Most of their meeting houses have been destroyed--the faithfulness of their witness abides even until today--by the Grace of God--He has preserved a remnant.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  14. Link

    Link New Member

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    Matt Black wrote,

    **So, as you can see from the above, there is no evidence of any non-heretical groups apart from the Novatians prior to the Waldenses from primary source documents eg: Milton lived some 1300 years after the period under consideration!**

    Since the Waldensians claimed their succession went back as far as a bishop in the 300's, that may be far back enough to satisfy a lot of evangelicals looking for a lineage. Btw, would you reject the Donatists as well? Weren't the Waldensians paedobaptists, btw, rather than credobaptists? This is one of my chief concerns when I look at history, whether at heretical groups, or the larger church.

    **Link, the problem I have with your suggestions is, as illustrated by my list of groups above, that once you throw the baby out with the bathwater in rejecting what the Church was up to the in 4th century, you admit all sorts of heretical groups as 'Christian' such as the Arians and the gnostics on the simple basis that they were 'associated with Christianity but not Catholic'.***

    That is not what I am arguing at all. I am not arguing that Arians are the 'one true church' that the Great Church was not. I am not arguing that anyone who was not Catholic was Biblically orthodox. If we do rject the idea that one had to be Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox to be saved, then it does not make sense for us to reject the 'heretics' as automatically unsaved because of their separation with the larger church institutions. If an Arian met the biblical requirements for salvation, then how can we say he was nto saved because he held to a wrong view of Christ's nature? How many 'Oneness' Baptists and other evangelicals are there whose understanding of the Trinity goes no further than 'Jesus is God.' Since when is doctrinal accuracy in all matters, even important matters, a requirement for salvation. I do not see this in scripture. There is doctrinal error that can prevent salvation, for example, not believing in that Christ rose from the dead.

    I have read authors who argued that various groups labeled as heretical by the RCC throughout history were actually orthodox. When you look at what was written about these groups, you find that they were allegedly Gnostic or held to other heretical concepts. For example, one author argued that the Paulicans returned to Biblical faith. The author pointed out many areas in which they returned to simple New Testament church life. But he also referred to one of their writings, the Key of Life, if I am not mistaken, and one web page article I read quoted this document as stating that the Spirit is not a person. The author of the document saw the Spirit as some kind of force, if I remember correctly.

    Be that as it may, if one Paulican document had a mistaken view of the Spirit, does that mean all Paulicans were heretics? Paulican, for all we know, may have been a broad term used to describe the movements of Christians in a certain area who met simply without accepting the system of monarchical bishops as seen throughout the empire. If there is one heretical view in 'Paulican' writings, does that mean all of them were heretics.

    Imagine this scenario. Imagine that after a thousand years the 'Three Self' church in China became the dominant religious organization in the world. Three-self authors chose some kind of label to describe all 20th and 21st century house church Christians. Then they chose a few heretical documents from the Eastern Lightening cult, who believed that a woman was an incarnation of Christ, and said this was typical of all house church people's beliefs. We know, since we live in the 20th century, that the 'house church movement' in China is not on humanly-organized movement. There are real churches there. There are cults. There are real churches that can fall into error like any other church. We should not dismiss all 'heretical' groups as heretical.

    On the other hand, given what evidence we have-- or do not have-- it would not be wise to argue that all Paulicans or Cathars, or whatever, were orthodox, when we have no solid evidence of a Biblical orthodox church among these groups. If there were Cathar Gnostics, the RCC may have labeled some Biblically orthodox churches as 'Cathar' because they shared a trait with the Cathars-- that of rejecting papal authority. So we should leave open the possiblity that some of the people within these historical movements--labeled by their opponents-- may have been real believers in real churches. But I think it is fair for you to ask for very specific examples.


    The Montanists may be another group, much earlier, that was unfairly labeled. The history of Montanism was written by its opponents. Originally, it was accepted within various portions of the church. Even if Montanist did go off in the wrong direction, if accounts of him are corect, it is quite possible that some of those labeled as Montonists throughout the Roman Empire were more orthodox. I can hardly see Tertullian believing that Montanus was the promised paraclete. Paraclete was a real word in Greek, or is derived from one. The prediction of the kingdom of God descending in Phrygia could ahve been an allegorical prophecy, rather than a far-reaching eschatalogical interpretation. What really separated the MOntanists, from what I have read, was Montanus' setting up a rival bishoprick.


    ** (You also, incidentally, call into question the canon of Scripture by this methodology, but that's another matter )**

    I do not see the connection. Even if some members of the 'heretical' groups did not have the same canon, I do not believe accepting the canon is a requirement for salvation, so my suggestions do not challenge the canon. in fact, many of the patristic heros of the Great Church in the 200's held to slightly different views on what books should be in the canon. I do not question their salvation based on these grounds. If you mean that the canon was decided on by the 'Great church' after the date that some say it was corrupt, you raise an important point.

    By the way, do you have a source for the idea that the Paulicans were like Marcion in rejecting the canon? I have not come across that before.


    On liturgy, what is your New Testament evidence for liturgy? Acts 13? Revelation?

    A friend of mine who lived in Jerusalem and knows about these sort of things says archeologists have found a synagogue with Christian 'graffito' written in it, with the Torah nitch facing the Tomb of the Holy Sepulcre rather than the temple mount built on the traditional site of the Upper Room site (believed to be St. John Mark's mother's house.) C.f. James 2:2. He also likes to refer to a quote in reference to an 'ekklesia' being located on the temple mount site in the early second century as a possible reference to a structure as an 'ekklesia.' Overall, I see the pattern of scripture, at least among the Gentiles, was for churches to meet in homes. It makes much more sense in missions situations, especially in terms of stewardship of funds.
     
  15. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Ah, now I see what you are saying! Yes, I agree that groups should not be rejected and dismissed as heretical simply because they were not part of the Catholic-Orthodox Church, and that we should judge each of them on their own merits. But that's the problem - when I examine each of these groups, I find them wanting doctrinally.

    Doctrine IS IMO important soteriologically - whether we correctly worship and serve God flows from whether we have a correct picture of Him. Let's take an analogy: if I described a giraffe to someone who had never seen one before as being a tall mammal with long legs which eats leaves and has brown and yellow patterned fur, you as an observer of that description would probably say "Fair enough; it's not a complete description ro 100% accurate but it will do." But if I was to say that a giraffe was a large heavy mammal with grey leathery skin, big ears, a trunk and tusks, you would quite rightly protest that that wasn't a giraffe at all but an elephant. To my mind it is the same with God; for example, the Trinity IS IMO a core Christian doctrine - it describes not just how God is but Who He is, and to abandon it is to abandon something essential in God's nature and to render the object of our worship a being other than God. Thus a JW or Christadelphian (or ancient Arian), because they have a deficient, non-Trinitarian view of God, are rightly called heretics by us since they are thus unable to form a salvifically effective relationship with Him.

    The Waldensians did subsequently claim a succession from the 300s but they were no more able to produce documentary evidence of this than were subsequent claimants of that theory, such as some of the posters here...

    I would not necessarily go so far as to say that the Montanists were heretics - at least, no more so than some of their modern charismatic descendants. Heterodox, perhaps.

    No, the canon is not a requirement for salvation - otherwise there would have been no salvation possible until the late 4th century! i now understand what you were saying and that you weren't calling into question the settlement of the canon.

    There are several examples of liturgy; here are a couple from Philippians: 2:6-11; 4:20. Jesus' discourse on the Bread of Life in Jn 6 is generally accepted by Biblical scholars to have been used as a Eucharistic liturgy by the Johannine community

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  16. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

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    The Abominations and Filthiness of Her Fornication

    Having already established the Church of Rome’s adulterous relations with the kings of the earth, let us move on to the abomination and filthiness of her fornication. As it is the intention of the writer, to prove from history that the identifying marks of the Mother of Harlots apply to the Church of Rome, it is therefore necessary to examine the records of history.

    Before we begin to examine some of this history, let us first discover the meaning of abominations from the scriptures. What did the Lord refer to as an abomination in the Holy Scriptures? The answer to this question, will determine what we will identify as such, within the Church of Rome.

    Deuteronomy 7 25 The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. 26 Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

    Worshipping, or bowing down to, or owning idols, is an abomination to the Lord.

    Deuteronomy 12 29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    Following the example of how other nations worshiped their god’s is an abomination unto the Lord.

    Deuteronomy 17 1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. 2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

    Offering and incomplete, or blemished sacrifice to the Lord, is an abomination unto the Lord. Worshiping other god’s, particularly, the sun, moon, or stars, is an abomination unto the Lord.


    Deuteronomy 18 9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

    It is an abomination for God’s people to learn to do after the people which the Lord has given into their hands. They should not worship their god’s, or incorporate their practices of worship into their own.


    Deuteronomy 32 16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith

    Incorporating the practices of other religions into the true religion, is an abomination unto the Lord.

    II Kings 23 23 But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the LORD in Jerusalem. 24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.

    Those who spoke to the dead, practiced magic, worshipped images, and idols, were an abomination unto he Lord.

    zra 9 12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever. 13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?

    Practicing the abominations of the nations around them, was the breaking of God’s commandments. The breaking of God’s commandments is an abomination. Not just that someone sinned, but that they accepted and believed, and practiced, that which was the breaking of God’s commandments. This is an abomination.

    No doubt, many reading have already associated many of the above abominations with the Church of Rome. For her adherents do pray to the dead in Mary and the saints. They do also bow down to images of the same. Many of these very images were incorporated from the pagan religions which permeated through the Church of Rome through her absorbance of the pagan worshippers that were declared Christian by the edicts of kings, and emperors. The effect of which, was the amalgamation of pagan, and Christian practices.

    The vast majority of Christians worship God today on the day of the Sun. They do not realize where, by whom, and how this day was even established. The previous chapter touched upon this subject briefly in order to show the Church of Rome’s connection to the kings of this earth. Some of the same material will be repeated in this chapter, since the establishment of Sunday worship is synonymous with the harlot committing fornication with the kings of the earth, as well as having a cup full of the abominations of her fornication. These two go hand in hand since it is by her adulteress relations with the kings of the earth, that the practices of their pagan religions become intertwined with this apostate Christian entity. In any case, even though many of us already know these things, here is the some of the history of how these things came about.


    The worship of the Christian martyrs

    The ruin of the Pagan religion is described by the sophists as a dreadful and amazing prodigy, which covered the earth with darkness and restored the ancient dominion of chaos and of night. They relate in solemn and pathetic strains; that the temples were converted into sepulchres, and that the holy places, which had been adorned by the statues of the gods, were basely polluted by the relics of Christian martyrs. "The monks" (a race of filthy animals, to whom; Eunapius is tempted to refuse the name of men) "are the authors of the new worship, which, in. the place of those deities who are conceived by the understanding, has substituted the meanest and most contemptible slaves. The heads, salted and pickled, of those infamous malefactors, who for the multitude of their crimes have suffered a just and ignominious death; their bodies, still marked by the impression of the lash and the scars of those tortures which were inflicted by the sentence of the magistrate; such" (continues Eunapius) "are the gods which the earth produces in our days; such are the martyrs, the supreme arbitrators of our prayers and petitions to the Deity, whose tombs are now consecrated as the objects of the veneration of the people." Without approving the malice, it is natural enough to share the surprise of the sophist, the spectator of a revolution which raised those obscure victims of the laws of Rome to the rank of celestial and invisible protectors of the Roman empire. The grateful respect of the Christians for the martyrs of the faith was exalted, by time and victory, into religious adoration; and the most illustrious of the saints and prophets were deservedly associated to the honours of the martyrs. One hundred and fifty years after the glorious deaths of St. Peter and St. Paul, the Vatican and the Ostian road were distinguished by the tombs, or rather by the trophies, of those; spiritual heroes. In the age which followed the conversion of Constantine, the emperors, the consuls, and the generals of armies devoutly visited the sepulchres of a tent-maker and a fisherman; and their venerable bones were deposited under the altars of Christ, on which the bishops of the royal city continually offered the unbloody sacrifice. The new capital of the Eastern world, unable to produce any ancient and domestic trophies, was enriched by the spoils of dependent provinces. The bodies of St. Andrew, St. Luke, and St. Timothy had reposed near three hundred years in the obscure graves from whence they were transported, in solemn pomp, to the church of the apostles, which the magnificence of Constantine had founded on the banks of the Thracian Bosphorus. About fifty years afterwards the same banks were honoured by the presence of Samuel, the judge and prophet of the people of Israel. His ashes, deposited in a golden vase, and covered with a silken veil, were delivered by the bishops into each other's hands. The relics of Samuel were received by the people with the same joy and reverence which they would have shown to the living prophet; the highways, from Palestine to the gates of Constantinople, were filled with an uninterrupted procession; and the emperor Arcadius himself, at the head of the most illustrious members of the clergy and senate, advanced to meet his extraordinary guest, who had always deserved and claimed the homage of kings. The example of Rome and Constantinople confirmed the faith and discipline of the catholic world. The honours of the saints and martyrs, after a feeble and ineffectual murmur of profane reason, were universally established; and in the age of Ambrose and Jerom something was still deemed wanting to the sanctity of a Christian church, till it had been consecrated by some portion of holy relics, which fixed and inflamed the devotion of the faithful.

    General Reflections

    In the long period of twelve hundred years, which elapsed between the reign of Constantine and the reformation of Luther, the worship of saints and relics corrupted the pure and perfect simplicity of the Christian model; and some symptoms of degeneracy may be observed even in the first generations which adopted and cherished this pernicious innovation.
    I. Fabulous martyrs and relics.
    I. The satisfactory experience that the relics of saints were more valuable than gold or precious stones stimulated the clergy to multiply the treasures of the church. Without much regard for truth or probability, they invented names for skeletons, and actions for names. The fame of the apostles, and of the holy men who had imitated their virtues, was darkened by religious fiction. To the invincible band of genuine and primitive martyrs they added myriads of imaginary heroes, who had never existed, except in the fancy of crafty or credulous legendaries; and there is reason to suspect that Tours might not be the only diocese in which the bones of a malefactor were adored instead of those of a saint. A superstitious practice, which tended to increase the temptations of fraud and credulity, insensibly extinguished the light of history and of reason in the Christian world.

    II Miracles

    II. But the progress of superstition would have been much less rapid and victorious if the faith of the people had not been assisted by the seasonable aid of visions and miracles to ascertain the authenticity and virtue of the most suspicious relics. In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem, and the ecclesiastical minister of the village of Caphargamala, about twenty miles from the city, related a very singular dream, which, to remove his doubts, had been repeated on three successive Saturdays. A venerable figure stood before him, in the silence of the night, with a long beard, a white robe, and a gold rod; announced himself by the name of Gamaliel; and revealed to the astonished presbyter, that his own corpse, with the bodies of his son Abibas, his friend Nicodemus, and the illustrious Stephen, the first martyr of the Christian faith, were secretly buried in the adjacent field. He added, with some impatience, that it was time to release himself and his companions from their obscure prison; that their appearance would be salutary to a distressed world; and that they had made choice of Lucian to inform the bishop of Jerusalem of their situation and their wishes. The doubts and difficulties which still retarded this important discovery were successively removed by new visions; and the ground was opened by the bishop in the presence of an innumerable multitude; The coffins of Gamaliel, of his son, and of his friend, were found in regular order; but when the fourth coffin, which contained the remains of Stephen, was shown to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour such as that of Paradise was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy-three of the assistants. The companions of Stephen were left in their peaceful residence of Caphargamala; but the relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood, or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue. The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa by the relics of St. Stephen; and this marvellous narrative is inserted in the elaborate work of the City of God, which the bishop of Hippo designed as a solid and immortal proof of the truth of Christianity. Augustin solemnly declares that he has selected those miracles only which were publicly certified by the persons who were either the objects, or the spectators, of the power of the martyr. Many prodigies were omitted or forgotten; and Hippo had been less favourably treated than the other cities of the province. And yet the bishop enumerates above seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese. If we enlarge our view to all the diocese, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary and established: laws of nature.

    III Revival of polytheism.

    III. The innumerable miracles, of which the tombs of the martyrs were the perpetual theatre, revealed to the pious believer the actual state and constitution of the invisible world; and his religious speculations appeared to be founded on the firm basis of fact and experience. What ever might be the condition of vulgar souls in the long interval between the dissolution and the resurrection of their bodies, it was evident. that the superior spirits of the saints and martyrs did not consume that portion of their existence in silent and inglorious sleep. It was evident (without presuming to determine the place of their habitation, or the nature of their felicity) that they enjoyed the lively and active consciousness of their happiness, their virtue, and their powers; and that they had already secured the possession of their eternal reward. The enlargement of their intellectual faculties surpassed the measure of the human imagination; since it was proved by experience that they were capable of hearing and understanding the various petitions of their numerous votaries, who, in the same moment of time, but in the most distant parts of the world, invoked the name and assistance of Stephen or of Martin. The confidence of their petitioners was founded on the persuasion that the saints, who reigned with Christ, cast an eye of pity upon earth; that they were warmly interested in the prosperity of the Catholic church; and that the individuals who imitated the example of their faith and piety were the peculiar and favourite objects of their most tender regard. Sometimes, indeed, their friendship might be influenced by considerations of a less exalted kind: they viewed with partial affection the places which had been consecrated by their birth, their residence, their death, their burial, or the possession of their relics. The meaner passions of pride, avarice, and revenge, may be deemed unworthy of a celestial breast; yet the saints themselves condescended to testify their grateful approbation of the liberality of their votaries; and the sharpest bolts of punishment were hurled against those impious wretches who violated their magnificent shrines, or disbelieved their supernatural power. Atrocious, indeed, must have been the guilt, and strange would have been the scepticism, of those men, if they had obstinately resisted the proofs of a divine agency, which the elements, the whole range of the animal creation, and even the subtle and invisible operations of the human mind, were compelled to obey. The immediate, and almost instantaneous, effects, that were supposed to follow the prayer, or the offence, satisfied the Christians of the ample measure of favour and authority which the saints enjoyed in the presence of the Supreme God; and it seemed almost superfluous to inquire whether they were continually obliged to intercede before the throne of grace, or whether they might not be permitted to exercise, according to the dictates of their benevolence and justice, the delegated powers of their subordinate ministry. The imagination, which had been raised by a painful effort to the contemplation and worship of the Universal Cause, eagerly embraced such inferior objects of adoration as were more proportioned to its gross conceptions and imperfect faculties. The sublime and simple theology of the primitive Christians was gradually corrupted: and the MONARCHY of heaven, already clouded by metaphysical subtleties, was degraded by the introduction of a popular mythology which tended to restore the reign of polytheism.

    IV Introduction of Pagan ceremonies.

    IV. As the objects of religion were gradually reduced to the standard of the imagination, the rites and ceremonies were introduced that seemed most powerfully to affect the senses of the vulgar. If, in the beginning of the fifth century, Tertullian, or Lactantius, had been suddenly raised from the dead, to assist at the festival of some popular saint or martyr, they would have gazed with astonishment and indignation on the profane spectacle which had succeeded to the pure and spiritual worship of a Christian congregation. As soon as the doors of the church were thrown open, they must have been offended by the smoke of incense, the perfume of flowers, and the glare of lamps and tapers, which diffused, at noon-day, a gaudy, superfluous, and, in their opinion, a sacrilegious light. If they approached the balustrade of the altar, they made their way through the prostrate crowd, consisting, for the most part, of strangers and pilgrims, who resorted to the city on the vigil of the feast; and who already felt the strong intoxication of fanaticism, and, perhaps, of wine. Their devout kisses were imprinted on the walls and pavement of the sacred edifice; and their fervent prayers were directed, whatever might be the language of their church, to the bones, the blood, or the ashes of the saint, which were usually concealed, by a linen or silken veil, from the eyes of the vulgar. The Christians frequented the tombs of the martyrs, in the hope of obtaining, from their powerful intercession, every sort of spiritual, but more especially of temporal, blessings. They implored the preservation of their health, or the cure of their infirmities; the fruitfulness of their barren wives, or the safety and happiness of their children. Whenever they undertook any distant or dangerous journey, they requested that the holy martyrs would be their guides and protectors on the road; and if they returned without having experienced any misfortune, they again hastened to the tombs of the martyrs, to celebrate, with grateful thanksgivings, their obligations to the memory and relics of those heavenly patrons. The walls were hung round with symbols of the favours which they had received; eyes, and hands, and feet, of gold and silver: and edifying pictures, which could not long escape the abuse of indiscreet or idolatrous devotion, represented the image, the attributes, and the miracles of the tutelar saint. The same uniform original spirit of superstition might suggest, in the most distant ages and countries, the same methods of deceiving the credulity, and of affecting the senses of mankind: but it must ingenuously be confessed that the ministers of the catholic church imitated the profane model which they were impatient to destroy. The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity. The religion of Constantine achieved, in less than a century, the final conquest of the Roman empire: but the victors themselves were insensibly subdued by the arts of their vanquished rivals. ( The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon, Chapter 28 )

    The above account by Edward Gibbon, is a revelation of the repetitive cycle of the history of humanity in relation to God’s grace and mercy towards us. Just as the nation of Israel in the days of old, continuously fell prey to the dangers of success, so too did Christianity follow in suit.

    When God had blessed the nation of Israel, and had subdued her enemies round about, apostasy was soon at the doors. It was by trusting in alliances with other heathen nations, and incorporating the religious practices of these nations, and those which they had conquered, that the apostasy spread throughout Israel. These things were repeatedly denounced by God’s prophets, as abominations. So to, as soon as Christianity had conquered paganism, if you will, she made the same mistakes. Incorporating the religious practices and ceremonies of conquered paganism into her own ranks. It was thus, that she obtained the favor of those who once opposed her, including the kings of this earth. Having established their approval, they then entered into forbidden relationships with these kings, and their unconverted subjects.

    That which was abominable in the sight of God during the old covenant, was, and is still abominable to Him today. The Church of Rome, is the Mother of all apostate “ Christian” entities of this world, that have incorporated these abominations within their ranks. That is, the religious practices and ceremonies of paganism, and the reliance upon the civil powers of this earth, to enforce their dogmas. Let us examine some more history regarding the same.


    “Popery, then, we hold to be an after-growth of Paganism, whose deadly wound, dealt by the spiritual sword of Christianity, was healed. Its oracles had been silenced, its shrines demolished, and its gods consigned to oblivion; but the deep corruption of the human race, not yet cured by the promised effusion of the Spirit upon all flesh, revived it anew, and, under a Christian mask, reared other temples in its honour, built it another Pantheon, and replenished it with other gods, which, in fact, were but the ancient divinities under new names. All idolatries, in whatever age or country they have existed, are to be viewed but as successive developments of the one grand apostacy. That apostacy was commenced in Eden, and consummated at Rome. It had its rise in the plucking of the forbidden fruit; and it attained its acme in the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome,--Christ's Vicar on earth. The hope that he would "be as God," led man to commit the first sin; and that sin was perfected when the Pope "exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Popery is but the natural development of this great original transgression. It is just the early idolatries ripened and perfected. It is manifestly an enormous expansion of the same intensely malignant and fearfully destructive principle which these idolatries contained. The ancient Chaldean worshipping the sun,--the Greek deifying the powers of nature,--and the Roman exalting the race of primeval men into gods, are but varied manifestations of the same evil principle, namely, the utter alienation of the heart from God,--its proneness to hide itself amid the darkness of its own corrupt imaginations, and to become a god unto itself. That principle received the most fearful development which appears possible on earth, in the Mystery of Iniquity which came to be seated on the Seven Hills; for therein man deified himself, became God, nay, arrogated powers which lifted him high above God. Popery is the last, the most matured, the most subtle, the most skilfully contriven, and the most essentially diabolical form of idolatry which the world ever saw, or which, there is reason to believe, it ever will see. It is the ne plus ultra of man's wickedness, and the chef d'oeuvre of Satan's cunning and malignity. It is the greatest calamity, next to the Fall, which ever befell the human family. Farther away from God the world could not exist at all. The cement that holds society together, already greatly weakened, would be altogether destroyed, and the social fabric would instantly fall in ruins.” ( History of the Papacy. By Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. Chapter I. )

    No sooner were the apostles removed from the stage of action, no sooner was their watchful attention gone and their apostolic authority removed, than this very thing appeared of which the apostle had spoken. Certain bishops, in order to make easier the conversion of the heathen, to multiply disciples, and by this increase their own influence and authority, began to adopt heathen customs and forms.

    When the canon of Scripture was closed, and the last of the apostles was dead, the first century was gone; and within twenty years of that time the perversion of the truth of Christ had become wide-spread. In the history of this century and of this subject the record is, — “It is certain that to religious worship, both public and private, many rites were added, without necessity, and to the offense of sober and good men.” ( Mosheim - “Ecclesiastical History,” Murdock’s translation, century 2, part 2, chap. iv, par. 1. )

    And the reason of this is stated to be that —
    “The Christians were pronounced atheists, because they were destitute of temples, altars, victims, priests, and all that pomp in which the vulgar suppose the essence of religion to consist. For unenlightened persons are prone to estimate religion by what meets their eyes. To silence this accusation, the Christian doctors thought it necessary to introduce some external rites, which would strike the senses of the people, so that they could maintain themselves really to possess all those things of which Christians were charged with being destitute, though under different forms.” ( Mosheim - Id., par. 3. )

    This was at once to accommodate the Christian worship and its forms to that of the heathen, and was almost at one step to heathenize Christianity. No heathen element or form can be connected with Christianity or its worship, and Christianity remain pure.

    Of all the ceremonies of the heathen, the mysteries were the most sacred and most universally practised. Some mysteries were in honor of Bacchus, some of Cybele, but the greatest of all, those considered the most sacred of all and the most widely practised, were the Eleusinian, so called because celebrated at Eleusis in Greece. But whatever was the mystery thatwas celebrated, there was always in it, as an essential part of it, the elements of abomination that characterized sun-worship everywhere, because the mysteries were simply forms of the wide-spread and multiform worship of the sun.

    We will pause here for a brief moment to take note of the above statement. The vast majority of the pagan rites and ceremonies adopted by apostate Christianity, were elements of the many, and varied forms of Sun worship. This same fact holds true also, to the varied forms of worship adopted by apostate Israel during the old covenant. This issue we will address in greater detail later in this book.

    Among the first of the perversions of the Christian worship was to give to its forms the title and air of the mysteries. For says the record: — “Among the Greeks and the people of the East, nothing was held more sacred than what were called the mysteries. This circumstance led the Christians, in order to impart dignity to their religion, to say that they also had similar mysteries, or certain holy rites concealed from the vulgar; and they not only applied the terms used in the pagan mysteries to Christian institutions, particularly baptism and the Lord’s Supper, but they gradually introduced also the rites which were designated by these terms.” ( Mosheim - Id., par. 5. )


    It was to accommodate the Christian worship to the minds of a people who practised these things that the bishops gave to the Christian ordinances the name of mysteries. The Lord’s Supper was made the greater mystery, baptism the lesser and the initiatory rite to the celebration of the former. After the heathen manner also a white garment was used as the initiatory robe, and the candidate, having been baptized, and thus initiated into the lesser mysteries, was admitted into what was called in the church the order of catechumens, in which order they remained a certain length of time, as in the heathen celebration, before they were admitted to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, the greater mystery.

    “This practice originated in the Eastern provinces, and then after the time of Hadrian (who first introduced the pagan mysteries among the Latins) it spread among the Christians of the West.” The reign of Hadrian was from 117-138. Therefore, before the second century was half gone, before the last of the apostles had been dead forty years, this apostasy, this working of the mystery of iniquity, had so largely spread over both the East and the West, that it is literally true that “a large part, therefore, of the Christian observances and institutions, even in this century, had the aspect of the pagan mysteries.”(Mosheim “Ecclesiastical History,” century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 5. ) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy, A. T. Jones )

    When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from their beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

    Some of the following is repeated from the previous chapter. The writer deems it necessary for the sake of establishing the link between Sunday sacredness, and Sun worship.

    “A law of the year 321 ordered tribunals, shops, and workshops to be closed on the day of the sun, and he [Constantine] sent to the legions, to be recited upon that day, a form of prayer which could have been employed by a worshiper of Mithra, of Serapis, or of Apollo, quite as well as by a Christian believer. This was the official sanction of the old custom of addressing a prayer to the rising sun. IN DETERMINING WHAT DAYS SHOULD BE REGARDED AS HOLY, and in the composition of a prayer for national use, CONSTANTINE EXERCISED ONE OF THE RIGHTS BELONGING TO HIM AS PONTIFEX MAXIMUS; and it caused no surprise that he should do this.” ( Duruy - “History of Rome,” chap. 102, part 1:par. 4 from end. )


    The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
    "One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

    Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
    "This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

    In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday.
    Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on
    "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.) ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

    Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
    Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )
    The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 361 )


    "Aurelian ... created a new cult of the 'Invincible Son.' Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome .... On establishing this new cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-Worship." Franz Cumont, "Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans," p. 55, 56.

    "The two opposed creeds [Christianity and Mithraism] moved in the same intellectual and moral sphere, and one could actually pass from one to the other without shock or interruption." Cumont, ibid. p. 210.


    "Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.


    "As a solar festival, Sunday was the sacred day of Mithra; and it is interesting to notice that since Mithra was addressed as Dominus, 'Lord,' Sunday must have been the 'Lord's Day' long before the Christian times." A. Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," p. 145.


    We have now established that he Church of Rome has unquestionably committed fornication with the kings of the earth, which resulted in her wielding of the cup filled with the abominations of the earth. We have also established that Sun worship played an extensive roll in filling this cup of abominations. This would include the fact that Sunday sacredness was established through this union of apostate Christianity and Sun worshipping paganism. Thus, Sunday sacredness, is as much of an abomination to God, as is any other of the pagan rites and ceremonies adopted by apostate Christianity. Let us move on to the establishment of the fact, that the Church of Rome is responsible for the blood of the saints.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I do not agree with the logic to this point.
    However, if one uses that logic, then there
    are some more conclusions that MUST BE DRAWN.

    This Sunday Worship is the MARK OF THE BEAST
    mentioned in Revelation Chapter 3. Those who
    worship on Sunday take the mark of the Beast
    (Rome) and worship the Beast (Rome).

    14:9-11 (HCSB = Holman Christian Standard Bible):

    9 And a third angel followed them and spoke with a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
    10 he will also drink the wine of God's wrath, which is mixed full strength in the cup of His anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb,
    11 and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever
    . There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name

    If Sunday worship is 'as proved' in the previous
    post, it means you who fell for the RCC
    trick of Sunday worship -- you will fry forever
    as The Christ looks on gleefully at your
    suffering and torment.

    Sorry folks, using proof by Reducto Absurdium
    shows that somebody made some false assumptions
    in their logic :(

    Jesus is NOT going smile upon the eternal
    torture of those who worship him on the
    wrong day of the week. Jesus is going to come
    get you before the Tribulation so you will
    never have to take the physical Mark of the
    Beast - you will live in heaven praising
    Jesus forever, not tied to an eternal whipping
    post.
     
  18. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yes, indeed, by that logic we should all throw in our lot with Bob and become SDAs.

    Constantine did not invent a new kind of Christianity or Church, but submitted to and worked with a pre-existing set of beliefs, practices and structures; many of the matters 'complained about' by his detractors here already existed prior to the Milvian Bridge event.

    Now, Constantine may not have understood those beliefs and practices (he only got baptised on his deathbed), may have been selective in what he did adopt and may have continued to display older habits of mind. The major point is, however, that he indentified himself with a theology and a community of considerable antiquity which, having survived both persecution and heresy, was both confident and self-assured.

    That there was innovation and interference, inspired both by his convictions (erroneously or otherwise held) and his desire for a string unified Empire, is not open to doubt; and innovation implied, amongst other things, Christian status, wealth, privilege and power. It is equally true, however, that the main features of 4th century Christianity - its resources, organisation and doctrine; its spiritual values and aspirations - were substantially in place by the late 3rd century...

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  19. Kamoroso

    Kamoroso New Member

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    You forget, there is no mark of the beast, until a certain type of worship is forced upon the entire world. Until that point, the mark of the beast does not exist.

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  20. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Baptist
    Constantine, near death, indicated how he regarded the efficacy of baptism. "Sin real hard until the last days, then wash away the sin with baptism". He must have been taught this by those "religious" who were married to the State--a marriage which was consumated by Constantine.

    Baptismal regeneration and other "salvation by works" errors have been around since Cain made an unacceptable offering.

    The gospel is: saved by Grace, not by works. The holy see has had problems with this since day one--so have her daughters. The pedo-baptists are everywhere. That does not make it right.

    There is something bogus about Constantine's apparition--in hoc signo vinces. Satan will give one a vision. The symbol which Constantine claims to have seen is pagan--just like the "church" he married to the empire. It later became the Holy Roman Empire. This paganistic system has split, reformed, re-reformed, and ecumenized. It is still pagan in origin.

    True Christianity is not pagan in origin--contrary to the secular history books and other efforts to "shroud" the Truth of "Jesus Christ and Him crucified". See John 14:6,7.

    The scripture shows up the religions of the world for what they are--phony. You will not find this in the "Daily News" in the "Religion Section", and probably not in most seminaries.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
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