"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

Greetings

You make the same mistake Calvinists make. God choose Abraham to be the head of national Israel. He went out in obedience yet unsaved. Bible records his saving faith in Gen 15. When you ignore context, then warped theology results.

Paul didn’t stumble over this. He went straight to the truth. Abraham was not justified by works (Rom 4:2). Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Rom 4:3). Where is Paul’s appeal to faithfulness?

Abraham was saved through the righteousness of faith (Rom 4:13). It is you who takes a Sharpie to scripture.

In Galatians, Paul again recounts Abraham’s salvation. Does he mention the obedience of leaving UR or does he mention the act of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness (Gal 3:6). So do I listen to your human-centered self-righteousness or do I trust in the Bible’s Christ-centered act of faith? Heresy is known by its children.

Paul makes Abraham God’s pattern of justification by faith (Gal 3:8).

You continue to corrupt a common sense reading of scriptures through ignorance of basic Bible definitions of justification and sanctification.

The worst of it all is that you cannot see the natural ramifications of your own system. If you are right, we all die for no one can be perfect. No one can be self-righteous. No one can obey. Your system is a system of death.

Lloyd

 

Greetings all

Have you noticed the apologetics used in these exchanges?

The OSAS denial group uses specific verses, twisted out of context, redefined by human-centered self-righteousness as so-called proofs that God is unfaithful.

The OSAS group uses grand overarching theology themes and is able to provide harmony with every passage.

I like Jesus as Surety the best! Jesus is the Surety of the New Covenant (Heb 7:22). The definition of a surety is:
__1) security against loss or damage or for the fulfillment of an obligation, the payment of a debt, etc.: a pledge, guaranty, or bond.
__2) a person who has made himself responsible for another, as a sponsor, godparent, or bondsman.
__3) the state or quality of being sure.
__4) certainty.
__5) that which makes sure; ground of confidence or safety.
__6) a person who is legally responsible for the debt, default, or delinquency of another.
__7) assurance, esp. self-assurance.”

A surety is one who stands in place of another guaranteeing that a certain engagement will be faithfully performed. This happens all the time in the financial world. If my son wants to buy a car in his own name but doesn’t have sufficient funds, then he needs help. When I step forward and agree to co-sign his bank note, the bank changes its view towards my son. When he drives off with his new car everyone is happy. But let’s say that some months down the road that my son can’t pay his monthly bill. Does he lose his car? Not as long as I’m the co-signer of his bank note. When he can’t pay, the bank comes after me. It is my first responsibility to pay the bank and only then do I have the responsibility to help my son avoid this sort of thing in the future. Of course, even if he flatly refuses to pay the bank note, I will do it out of legal covenantal obligation (at the minimum) and (at the maximum) I will do it out of family love. This pauper is my son! My son’s bank note is as sure as my ability to back him up. This is a very close picture of God’s dealings with us pitiful humans.

The same scenario happens for believers. Jesus is the surety (co-signer) of God’s new covenant. Since believers’ credit has been irreparably damaged we all need help. When Jesus stepped forward as the co-signer of the new contract, God changed His view towards those who believe in Jesus. But let’s say that some time down the road these believers can’t fulfill their responsibilities to God. They stop reading their Bibles, stop witnessing, stop praying, stop confessing their sins, fall into various besetting sins, lose heart, drift away, and even apostatize. Do they lose their salvation? Not as long as Jesus is the co-signer of the new covenant. When believers can’t fulfill their responsibilities towards God, Jesus fulfills the requirements for them. Of course, future rewards will be adjusted for present failures at Jesus’ Bema Seat.

These powerful themes should be the basis of theology, not verses conducive to theological twisting.

Lloyd

 

The post above that takes an entire story given in MAtt 18 and highlights the inconvenient details for OSAS - is considered by some to be the "bad bible" if taken just as it reads.

But notice the details that were highlighted. The fact that forgiveness AND the "Kingdom of Heaven" are the explicit context Christ establishes.

As much as this may not be pleasing in the model of OSAS -- the specific points raised are in fact "devastating" to that teaching as it has no place for "forgiveness revoked" where Christ Tells us that the dEBT OWED is not payable.

#1. The amount owed in the story is far greater than the servant could pay.

#2. It is out of gratitude for REAL forgiveness that the servant was to forgive others.

#3. Christ makes the SAME argument in the Lord's Prayer with REAL forgiveness being the subject.

#4. Christ then applies the warning directly to HIS followers.

#5. Then HIS followers reproduce this story POST CROSS for the NT Church (in the book of Matthew) in obedience to Christ's command to "Teach" ALL that HE taught.

These points were devastating as listed above and now with an enumerated list - perhaps harder to simply ignore.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Note. The Forgiveness "revoked" theme of Matt 18 is the same one we see in Ezekiel 18.

Kinda neat!

BTW - assurance is not based on ignoring the parts of God's Word that don't fit the OSAS model. Assurance according to 1John 5 and Romans 8:16 is based on a living connection with God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey Bob,

I was pondering your stance on Matt 18 and was wondering what is meant by the "kingdom of heaven". Is it on earth (believers)? Is it heaven itself where God the Father is? Or what? What or where do you believe it is? Jesus said one must be converted to enter in. When converted does one enter immediately spiritually or does it mean one will enter upon the death of their earthly body?

God Bless!

 

"Kingdom of heaven" is a specific reference to the Gospel. Notice that in MAtt 3:2 and 4:17 Christ and John are both preaching about the Kingdom of heaven. In fact it is called "The Gospel of the Kingdom" Matt 4:23 the same chapter that we find Christ taking up the message of John the Baptizer - 4:17 from 3:2.

It is that "Gospel of the kingdom" that has to be preached into all the world AND THEN shall the end come Matt 24.

In ALL of Matt - the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" refers to the Gospel, to heaven, to eternal spiritual reality in God's kingdom.

Christ speaks of "entering the Kingdom" of heaven is future (at the 2nd coming) Matt 5:20 7:21 but in a sense it is also at the point of conversion - Matt 23:13.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So then "forgiveness" in the "Kingdom of heaven" is "granted by our great King" whom we serve. (As Paul points out his own servanthood to Christ - repeatedly).

It is OUT of that forgiveness first given to us that we forgive others.

This is the ONLY basis for our goodness to others in "the kingdom of heaven" because we are not "naturally good" as sinful humans apart from the new birth and Christ dwelling IN us by faith.

In Christ,

Bob

 

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I don't know how much you differentiate between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God, but considering that this thread is about OSAS, Jesus said you must be born again in order to enter into His Kingdom. He details this to Nicodemus drawing a parallel, that just as a man is physically born into this world, so must a man be born spiritually born into the Kingdom of God. A man can only be born physically once. A man can only be born once spiritually. He is not born again and again and again and again, etc. Once his is born into God's family, he becomes one of God's children, and just as I am one of my physical father's children, and that can be proven by DNA analysis that will never change; so I will always be one of my Heavenly Father's children, a fact that can never change no matter what happens in the future. Once saved, always saved. Once a child, always a child. The principle is so simple.
DHK

 

Amen DHK!

So let me work through this Bob.

" Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants ." (23)

From your point of view above these servants are all those who have been born again and saved. They must be because Jesus is talking about the kingdom of heaven and only those born again can be in the kingdom of heaven.

" And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents ." (24)

You say...

#1 At what judgment is this reckoning? Is it the judgment seat of Christ?

#2 Why does this born again servant still owe a debt he cannot pay? Was he not forgive by the blood of the lamb upon conversion?

#3 If the kingdom of heaven is the context, how is it you say that the parable is for all of humanity? Only the saved can be in the kingdom of heaven.

Either the kingdom of heaven are the forgiven or it is all of humanity. Now which is the focus here? We can't call it both ways.

Why is Jesus re-forgiving a servant's sin debt he cannot pay, hasn't he already been forgiven that debt upon conversion?

God Bless!

 

Indeed. They are to "Forgive" JUST as they have BEEN "forgiven".

Very true. The servants FORGIVEN are the servants SAVED.

" And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents ." (24)

Here we see the NEED of forgiveness.

And in the GOSPEL message of the Kingdom -- THIS PROBLEM is exactly what needs to be addressed.

Though we may "think" we can "pay our debt" the servant is disabused of that - and told that GRACE ALONE as met the debt!

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. So "salvation by works is out".


He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

The sinner is confronted by the Holy Spirit according to John 16 as He "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"John 16.

No. It is at the point of individual conviction that the sinner realizes the existence of the great debt and the need for grace. The "Gospel solution of the Kingdom of Heaven".

And so as Christ said "THIS GOSPEL of the KINGDOM must be preached in all the world" Matt 24.

All owe that debt until they experience conviction and are brought to the foot of the cross.

The debt of sin can only be paid one way - and yet the sinner live!

All humanity owed the debt according to Romans 3.

Only the FORGIVEN are members of God's Kingdom such that "They enter the kingdom of heaven" as pointed out in my earlier post.

Those who are UNFORGIVEN can not enter.

Only the saved can be IN the kingdom of heaven - but the GOSPEL of the KINGDOM is one that goes to ALL humanity.

Christ repeatedly gives us illustrations of the KINGDOM of HEAVEN where it is basically presented as the GOSPEL going to a LOST world.

This is no exception.

No "reforgiveness" is mentioned AT ALL in the text. It does no good to eisegete it INTO The text as if this is being mentioned.

The servant that received forgiveness DID NOT START OUT forgiven.

There is no way to spin it back that way if you let the details of the text stand as they are.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is no "salvation" mentioned.

There is no "born again" mentioned.

There is no "eternal life" mentioned.

There is no "eternal punishment" mentioned.

Yet you preach that this servant was "born again saved" (which is not mentioned) and then salvation (which is not mentioned) is revoked.

So it is ok for you to plug in a word not mentioned but when I do it it is "spin"?

You are making an interpretation of the passage. Declaring it states that a "sinner" is getting saved and then is having that salvation revoked because he sinned again. Even though this contradicts the fullness of Scripture and the passage never makes such distinctions.

Let me ask you another question. Can one be a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ yet not be born again saved?

God Bless!

 

As has already been pointed out the "Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Gospel of the kingdom" are shown to both deal with the basic subject of the Gospel -- which clearly indicates "Born again, eternal life, forgivenes, punishment" etc.

The "big question" is -- "Does the Gospel automatically involve REFORGIVENESS" such that ALL saints STILL OWE an unpayable debt EVEN after forgiven?

You might "assume that" into the Gospel -- simply because you need it in MAtt 18 - but it is not as "CERTAIN" as the other basic themes of the Gospel you mention above.

So my point remains.

Reforgiveness (of the huge unpayable debt) is NOT mentioned as part of the story.

All we have is THE INITIAL DEBT OWED followed by THE forgiveness of that debt Followed by "forgiveness revoked".

That is what is actually IN the story.

The other idea you "need to insert" is simply not there - though I do see your need to insert it.

Only as the FORGIVEN servant. Once FORGIVEN He is born again AND obligated to "Forgive as he was forgiven".

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed -- as has "already been shown" - the topic of the "Gospel of the Kingdom" and the "Kingdom of heaven" as used by Matthew IS ALWAYS a reference to the Gospel which ALWAYS deals with "a sinner getting saved".

And in the case of Matt 18 -- a sinner whose great unpayable debt gets forgiven.

This is clear from the text.

It is obvious.

It is impossible to obfuscate (or had you noticed?)

"So shall my Heavenly Father do to Each one of YOU if YOU do not forgive others from your heart" Matt 18.

So that would be SAINTS promised the same "Forgiveness REVOKED" as we SEE in the story.

Instead of clinging to what is not there (like "reforgiveness")- why not simply accept the details that ARE there?

Matthew seems to think so.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Greetings

Jesus is the Surety of the New Covenant (Heb 7:22). The definition of a surety is:
1) security against loss or damage or for the fulfillment of an obligation, the payment of a debt, etc.: a pledge, guaranty, or bond.
2) a person who has made himself responsible for another, as a sponsor, godparent, or bondsman.
3) the state or quality of being sure.
4) certainty.
5) that which makes sure; ground of confidence or safety.
6) a person who is legally responsible for the debt, default, or delinquency of another.
7) assurance, esp. self-assurance.”

A surety is one who stands in place of another guaranteeing that a certain engagement will be faithfully performed. This happens all the time in the financial world. If my son wants to buy a car in his own name but doesn’t have sufficient funds, then he needs help. When I step forward and agree to co-sign his bank note, the bank changes its view towards my son. When he drives off with his new car everyone is happy. But let’s say that some months down the road that my son can’t pay his monthly bill. Does he lose his car? Not as long as I’m the co-signer of his bank note. When he can’t pay, the bank comes after me. It is my first responsibility to pay the bank and only then do I have the responsibility to help my son avoid this sort of thing in the future. Of course, even if he flatly refuses to pay the bank note, I will do it out of legal covenantal obligation (at the minimum) and (at the maximum) I will do it out of family love. This pauper is my son! My son’s bank note is as sure as my ability to back him up. This is a very close picture of God’s dealings with us pitiful humans.

The same scenario happens for believers. Jesus is the surety (co-signer) of God’s new covenant. Since believers’ credit has been irreparably damaged we all need help. When Jesus stepped forward as the co-signer of the new contract, God changed His view towards those who believe in Jesus. But let’s say that some time down the road these believers can’t fulfill their responsibilities to God. They stop reading their Bibles, stop witnessing, stop praying, stop confessing their sins, fall into various besetting sins, lose heart, drift away, and even apostatize. Do they lose their salvation? Not as long as Jesus is the co-signer of the new covenant. When believers can’t fulfill their responsibilities towards God, Jesus fulfills the requirements for them. Of course, future rewards will be adjusted for present failures at Jesus’ Bema Seat.

This is a great pillar of OSAS that denies conditionality. I have posted this message some 6 times now. No Christ-denying theologian has made anything close to a valid response. How can they?

Lloyd

 

Been so much written since I was gone I don't even think I could write what I wanted to even if i had time, which I don't. Just a quick couple responses.

DoubtingT., I read your post on eternal life and I must say I just can't understand how eternal (meaning forever and ever and ever) can not be eternal. You say that we can give up our eternal life. Well, then it wasn't eternal then was it. You are seeing eternal salvation like an apple that doesn't decay. I can hold the apple but I can also throw the apple away, my choice. Eternal salvation is not a tangible object it is TRUTH. It is not at the free will of the holder (because the holder is not in charge of it). Once the person passes unto LIFE, is born again, born anew, becomes a child of God, something happens that is wonderful, .... we are righteous in God's sight, covered by the blood of the Lamb and kept that way forever because we are kept by God's faithfulness and righteousness, not ours and again it is eternal and we can know right now that we posess what is eternal and at the moment we know, it must be forever and ever and ever.

On Abraham, if you read the story there was others in the near distance waiting for him and he had a whole family to tell the story to when he returned with Issac but more then that the real observers of the story are you and me. Abraham proved to himself and to every person to ever read the Bible that he had faith. His actions were the result of his faith in God. God knew exactly what Abraham would do, there was nothing to prove to God, only us. It is that way with us today. We can't show God we love him by what we do, he sees our hearts, knows our motives, and loves us because He is love. We can however prove our faith (the word justify menas "to Prove") to others by our actions. I was won to Christ by what I saw in several other people, two in particular. They proved their faith to me and I wanted what they had. That is what works have always been about and why we are created to do them. Why do you think the theme of the NT for the believer is to love others. Loving others is the action that wins souls and that is why God's stresses our deeds so much. It is not to keep us in His grace and to hold on to our salvation, that would be almost selfish, No, works and deeds are to win others to God. We show the Jesus that dwells in us and others come and get faith, that is what really matters. If our deeds diminish our witness goes with it but not our position as children. Where you think God is saying to hold on and endure and not to get shipwrecked you think is about our salvation and us losing that salvation. It is not, it is an appeal for us to stand firm and serve others because that is how the the lost are won to Christ, by works. We have works layed out by God and He helps us complete those works, if we stand firm. Hope that at least explains better what is going on here.

Bob, answer again the question that Steaver asked on Matthew 18, If the servant=saved then how did he still have such a great debt?? and need forgiveness again. Would not the great debt be our sinful nature that needs to be dealt with first and foremost. Your version of the parable does not seem to stay within the normal course of events for the Christian.

I'll wait for your answer but I am more convinced then before that you are forcing meaning on this parable.

More later

In Christ,
Brian

 

Eternal life
Eternal punishment

We know all have sinned and are deserving of death.

Can a sinner give up his "eternal punishment"?
Can a saint give up his "eternal life"?

To follow the logic trail that says a saint cannot give up his eternal life, because if he did, it was not really eternal is to also say, a sinner cannot give up his eternal punishment, because if he did, it was not really eternal.

Yes, we will be judged by the things done in the body. Rom 2:6-8 He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Does it matter how we live?

James 5:19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Save your soul from what kind of death? Physical? Spiritual? Our souls will not die so it cannot be talking about physical death.

James is talking to CHRISTIANS and telling them not to wander from the truth or they would lose their soul, unless someone brings them back to the truth.

It takes some serious mental gymnastics to try and explain this away, and this is just one of many.

 

Then you didn't read what I said too closely. Eternal life is eternal because that life is in Christ as He is eternal. Our possession of that Life is a different story. While Christ is Eternal--having no beginning or end--our relationship with Christ has a begginning in time. If we remain in Him, then we continue to possess eternal life; if we punt Christ, we forfeit our possession of eternal life since Life is in Him.

On the contrary, you are still seeing eternal life as something that is external to Christ Himself, rather than something that is in Him. You're right--eternal life is TRUTH, and that TRUTH is a PERSON. In order to have eternal life we must be united to the Person who is the source of eternal life. But if we don't abide and continue in faith, we will be cut off from the Source of Life (see John 15:6; Romans 11:18-23)

Yet there are numerous Scriptures that suggest otherwise. We must continue to stand in faith--that is a choice we must make. We are commanded to endure, hold fast, stand firm, abide, remain, etc...and these are commands we can choose to obey or disobey. And if we sin willfully the blood of Christ does not cover us any longer unless we confess and repent (see Hebrews 10:26-29). So we do in fact have free will in responding to God's grace, whether we receive it (or, rather, Him) or reject it.

Yet you totally ignored what God Himself said in that passage: "For now I know that you fear God, since you have not witheld your son, your only son, from Me (Gen 22:12). In other words, God wanted to see actual obedience and waited for that to declare that Abraham in fact feared Him. You see what's "in the heart" must come out in obedience to prove it's real, not just to other men, but to the God who justifies. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17) and it's only faith working through love that avails for anything (Galatians 5:6)