"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

I have posted the "inconvenient text" for your view - "in detail" and you continue to ignore them.

Be assured that -- an unnanswered point - is unnanswered still when you post that you are continuing to "ignore it".

So try not to be surprised as the same devastating texts are posted again - as this subject comes up. Until a substantive response is posted - there is not much else I can do.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "my denomination's encyclopedic definition" -- if you have some quote for that -- show it. Otherwise I assume this is "yet another" example of your assertion-without-substance model of posting.

#2. How is it that you feel a study on justification must be had BEFORE we can admit to the content of the many devastating texts ALREADY shown to abolish your position on OSAS?

The "Details" in the texts ALREADY posted have been sufficient to baffle your responses.

#3. However - all that aside - nothing would please me more than to look at the subject of Justification. Shall I start with Romans 2:11-13 or James 2 or perhaps the other form that is mentioned in Romans 3 and 5?

Wait! Let me guess! You like the one in Romans 5 and 3 but not in Romans 2 and James 2!

In any case - you know that if the subject is to be discussed we will have to cover both flavors.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here is the thing. When God's Word is posted - Lloyd labels those parts that are "inconvenient" to OSAS - "Shallow" and then launches into a pointless rant.

Surely this is not the "Substance" that all here are accustomed to in defending OSAS!

Lets be serious people. You can do better than this. The texts were posted and God's Word is NOT shallow. In fact I have in some cases posted an entire CHAPTER with insights and "inconvenient" facts HIGHLIGHTED in bold.

In the sparse post Lloyd gives above - he merely lodges his complaint as to WHY he finds the text of Romans 11 "inconvenient" but does not actually PROVE anything. He fails to make any case at all from scripture for his "assumed salient points" -- points ASSUMED not proven!

Lloyd fails to exegeted EVEN ONE LINE of Romans 11 in his response to his dislike of that chapter. He merely "complains".

I suuppose "That is the STUFF of OSAS" for now - but I was really expecting a better case could have been made for it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

Paul is looking to "MOTIVATE" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all)

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11.

Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

Yet God shows His CONTINUED willingness, purpose, intent and interest in "Grafting them in again". He never presents the fall of Israel as "God's fickle choice for the CHOSEN" -- rather it is "Their UNBELIEF" – it is the rebellion of the CHOSEN.

Note that “you” is to the INDIVIDUAL reading the letter and – it is on an INDIVIDUAL basis that they stand IN Christ. Trying to “ignore this inconvenient detail” in an effort to save OSAS is not “exegesis” it is EISEGESIS. And this comes as a surprise to many.

---

So what will be the answer to yet ANOTHER detailed look at the devastating case scripture makes against OSAS???

Wait! Let me guess.

"Don't look at those scriptures until we first discuss the subjet of Justification from Romans 5 and 3 ALONE".

(Just a hunch).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey Bob

I looked at your long post again. I think I've seen it before! Cut and paste is not a genuine exchange. You wouldn't do it in a face to face conversation. Why do it here?

Your very first attempt with Rom 11 is an easy to spot botch. Paul spends three chapters talking about national Israel. Your nice attempt with Gentiles is botched from failure to examine CONTEXT - again!

This is not individual election. God has grafted th nations of the world into the root stock and can eliminate them just as easy. Israel's stumbling allowed unprecedented favor to Gentiles.

It is incredulous to see you criticize Calvinists for their error on election and then see you botch the same passage with a different motif. Do you always change your view on a passage to suit a new topic? How is it that you go hot and cold from one part of this forum to the next? Consistency is the hallmark of theology.

When you can't get the first verse right, I lose interest in the rest of your post. Get the first one right and I'll read #2.

Context rules! Not denominational bias.
Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

My side - my side hurts from laughter .

Dear Bob - do you not know that if you cannot get the foundation right that the whole ediface comes down?

Your so-called proofs are nothing but verbose ignorance of Bible basics. Your so-called Rom 11 proof is just one example. You start an exegesis without realizing that context is national Israel. You try to twist the context of national Israel into a personal application. This isn't very smart Bob. When you can't understand context, then you fall into heresy. Rom 11 case in point. OSAS stands firm unless you ignore CONTEXT.

I noted the same ignorance in your references to Hebrews. So I either chase the rabbit through all the errant abuses of sanctification verses twisted into unholy process justification support

- OR -

go straight to the source of your error: justification.


It is easy to see why you run. You think you have it figured out and you think an appeal to Bible basics is a run and dodge tactic.

Lurking somewhere in your biased mind is the thought that I might be right and you are working hard to fight off that thought. You are hoping that I'll get caught up in one of your side shows.

Nope! At 1600-1800 I'll begin teaching you your big error. Will you stick with me? Will you actually post something of worth before then?

Time flies Bob.
Get with it.
Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

Stop it! My side is still hurting from your comedian act.

Bob - the right way to do a study is to use ALL of God's Word. You don't start with any one passage and force the rest of the verses into that mold. Wrong - wrong - wrong. Even BIG WRONG.

You do a 100% study. Here it is only 40 verses. That will take a minimal amount of time for someone who can post TEN THOUSAND messages void of context.

Late this afternoon Bob!
Try it.

Lloyd

 

Hey Bob

You missed your calling. You should have been on stage.

 

Well so far you are ignoring ALL OF ROMANS 2!!

So until you actually "do something" in the dialog but "rant" how in the world do you expect to make a point stick?

Just curious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Seriously I have to ask Lloyd - why all this gaming and ducking of scripture?

How in the world is that supposed to "convince ME" of something?

How would it convince any reader who was NOT of the OSAS view and was WAITING for you to actually address the devastating points raised that have dubunked your OSAS view?

I mean -- what part of your antics would be considered "communication" or progress?

I just don't get the "strategy" bro!

In Christ,

Bob

 

You error in your opening statement. Paul is speaking about all sinners and not born again believers being judged. Once the foundation is flawed the rest of your points will be flawed as well.

" What then? are we better than they ?"(3:9)

We who? and they who? We Jews who have the law and they Gentiles who have not.

" No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one :"(3:10)

Doesn't matter if you think you "do the law". You are a sinner and...

" Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight :"(3:20)

" Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified ".(Gal 2:16)

So when you open your post with... " God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2 ... you are absolutely wrong in your analysis of the chapter. There isn't any "some saved and some lost" in the chapter. There is only a message of ALL guilty before God.

Bob says ; "#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text.


God says ; "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified".(Gal 2:16)

Bob says ; "It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

God says; " No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: "(3:10)

I guess you'll have to take it up with God some day brother!

God Bless!

 

Your point is flawed.

First of all - in your attempts to avoid Romans 2 your response to Romans 2 only quotes Romans 3!!

So lets try "once again" to "see" Romans 2!

Romans 2 -
#1. As it turns out - ALL have sinned and ALL are sinners.

#2. Romans 2 explicitly addresses the point of Repentance and JUSTIFICATION as we SEE in vs 4-11.

#3. THERE IS NO such thing as repentance and justification for the lost - that leaves them as anything but SAVED!

So the idea that those in Romans 2 that are stated as going to heaven - are in fact still lost - could never work!

#4. The text SHOWS that the impartial basis of the judgment is applicable to ALL "For there IS NO partiality with God".

#5. The text SHOWS that EVEN among those WITHOUT the Bible are those SAVED who WILL BE JUDGED as saved and under the new covenant "According to my Gospel" Rom 2:15-16.

#6. Since the chapter EXPLICITLY shows BOTH the SUCCESSFULL and the FAILING cases - there is NO WAY exclude the saints from the SUCCESSFUL case!

#7. Since the entire chapter is directed at teaching the point that the spiritual Jew is the one who is "circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit" there is NO WAY to exclude that group from "the SAVED"!

#7. Since the ENTIRE CHAPTER is directed at SHOWING that these spiritual jews come from BOTH the literal Jew and Gentile population and that the Gentile is JUDGED "deemed to be" a real spiritual Jew if that Gentile is in fact saved and circumised spiritually - there is NO WAY to exclude the SAVED from that chapter.

#8. Since vs 11-13 EXPLICITLY references justification - there is NO WAY to exclude the saved who RECIEVE that justification FROM the chapter.

I could go on - but you get the point.

The idea that one can exclude the saved from those that are said to be going to heaven in Romans 2 -- is totally flawed.

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 04, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

I will SHOW what is in Romans 2

Feel free to quote from what I am posting and ojbect point-by-point keeping in mind the DETAILS of the text and my comment as you do so.

That way we can "discuss" the points rather than talking past them.

Romans 2 is filled with the "contrast" language showing the failing case and how it is contrasted with the successful case.

Yet many who choose a "sifting and snippet" approach to scripture - turn a blind eye to the contrasting language in Romans 2 - hoping to see only "condemnation for Jews".

Still - there are Christians today that have faithfully shown a deep appreciation for all of God's word - and all of Romans 2.

Romans 2 actually deals with the impartiality of God wrt to Jews and Gentiles, those who have the bible and those who do not. (this means it addresses everyone - the saved and the unsaved) all come from either the group that has the bible or the group that does not. All come from either the Jews or the non-Jews. This is a globally applicable chapter. And it starts with the call to repentance (and there for confession and forgiveness).

Now from Romans 1 to 2:3 we have had introduced the subject of God's infallible judgment and contrasted it to man's faulty judgment

Lets pay special attention to the details of the starting Context that PAUL gives in his letter to the Romans and SEE how "choice" plays out in this IMPARTIAL system where the IMPARTIAL God calls ALL to repentance.

.

Vs 4 shows us that the mercy - kindness - grace leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the Gospel basics of God's offer to grant repentance and that all need to repent.

Note: The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.

Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”. Paul here identifies the “impartial” basis of God’s judgment. Instead of His simply “arbitrarily selecting” some to favor and others to ignore – ALL are judged according to deeds IN the context of the “call to repentance” of vs 4.

He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.

Romans 2 - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" because God will “favor the few over the many”. He does not let us suppose that others are lost for doing evil while the “favored” ones do evil and go to heaven. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.

But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.

 

No Partiality – for Christians –

God shows no partiality between unsaved people. (Unsaved Jews vs Unsaved Gentiles)
Acts 10:34
[ Gentiles Hear Good News ] Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

God shows no partiality in determining who goes to heaven – who is justified.

Many are reading that section of Romans 2:1-11 above for the first time – with eyes open to details.

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.

 

So since OSAS and Calvinist faithful can not "will not" allow themselves to "see" Romans 2 --

Lets go to Romans 3.

However sadly for the OSAS and Calvinist group - I unnable to rip out Romans 2 as we go into Romans 3.

So I leave the chapter IN CONTEXT -- too bad for OSAS.

I am among those that fully embrace the chapters of the book of Romans as they do the rest of scripture.

Unfortunately the traditions of some Christians force them to take a "sifting" approach to scripture and to snippet out those sections (the entire chapter of Romans 2 for example) that they object to while clinging to strained interpretations of what is left.

Recall that Romans 1 - shows how ALL MEN are held accountable to God by the fact that NATURE itself reveals the truths about God and their obligation to serve Him.

Recall that Romans 2 - shows how ALL men fit into one of TWO groups. Either they are in the failing group or the succeeding group and chapter 2 uses a style of CONTRASTING the two groups. Sadly - some christians today are forced by their traditions to turn a blind eye to that contrast.

Romans 3 shows how ALL MEN are bound by the Law of God such that the GOSPEL solution is the ONLY one that "establishes the LAW" yet SAVES mankind from its condemnation. It points out that NNE from Adam to Rev 20 can escape ANY other way because the LAW can not be avoided nor abolished. It will ultimately CONDEMN us OR our faith will be shown to "establish the law" as a result of the Gospel solution that UPHOLDS it.

First let us recap the positioning that Paul brings to Romans 3 by HIS CHOICE in prefacing it with the discussion of Romans 2.

Romans 2 Recap

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 2 – what “Does it say” and NOT “what do I wish it said”. Exegesis vs Eisegesis. God’s Word vs “my word”.

Some Common Mistakes:
A. Wouldn’t it be nice if Romans 2 and half of Romans 1 could be presented as a false-works-Gospel of legalistic Jews – with 100% failure expected?.
B. Wouldn’t it be neat if the successful cases in listed in Romans 2 were just the make-believe ideas of legalistic Jews – and not “real”?
C. Wouldn’t it be neat if the Gentiles in Romans 2 were limited to Christian Gentiles only?
D. Wouldn’t it be neat if Romans 2 and half of Romans 1 were only presenting our desperate need of the Gospel by showing us what it would be like without the Gospel? (i.e. – 100% failure)

Romans 2 summary:

#1. We saw BOTH succeeding AND failing cases in Romans 2. In the end – some of mankind goes to heaven and some to the lake of fire (Vs 5-11)
#2. Romans 2 shows “Gospel Results” – in the context of God drawing us to repentance and God’s future Gospel judgment. (Vs 3-4, Vs 13-16)
#3. Romans 2 tells us about future-justification and future-judgment based on “who are the Doers not merely the hearers” (Vs 11-16) as does Matt 7.
#4. Every time we speak of justification and judgment future --- then the basis is “By their fruits you shall know them” (Vs 5-13)
#5. God evaluation takes into account the two different classes of mankind: Those who have scripture and those who don’t. (Vs 11-12)
#6. Paul’s “ultimate” example (and slap in the face to the Jews) of how this future justification works – is given in his worst-case example – the Gentiles who do not have the Word of God – and yet some among them “do instinctively” the things of God. (Vs 13-16)
• “Instinctively” because they have no teacher, no Bible, no written Word to guide them
• “Instinctively” because even though they live in darkness – the light shines in darkness – the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and righteousness and judgment
• “Instinctively” because God “Draws all mankind unto Him” so they have the option of “responding” though they walk as the blind.

This challenges a more Catholic view of the “one true church” and the “infallible magisterium” in that it shows condemnation for some of those who have scripture and success for some of those who do not.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KEYQUESTION: -- IF that is really true – then why be a Christian at all? Why the Bible? Why the Nation of Priests? Why Evangelize?

The Failure of that system immediately raised the question of - "well then what good is it? Apparently Gentiles will get into the kingdom WITHOUT it".

KEY POINT: THE ONE TRUE Nation Church and the FOREVER promises

To Israel is given the Word of God – The Bible, Scripture.
Isaiah 59 tells us that they were given FOREVER promises of God’s teaching Word and His Holy Spirit.

What a fantastic thought that God would entrust to sinful, faulty man - "the ORACLES of GOD"!! He tells us He sovereignly ordained the Jewish church (the ONE TRUE Church established at Sinai) to perpetuate the teaching of His Word. He did this with FOREVER promises (just as in the case of the New Testament Church) - see
Isaiah 59 for an example of His forever Covenant with this ONE TRUE Hebrew church. A covenant about His Spirit and His Infallible Word.

That forever covenant was intended to setup the Hebrew church as a TEACHING church - an evangelizing church (A royal priesthood and holy nation) - the same charter given the church of the New Testament 1 Pet 2:5, 9-10.

Notice that Paul considers the LITERAL earthly institution of the Hebrew church to be LITERALLY given the ORACLES OF GOD - even though they have fallen. No literal church today can claim exemption from the possibility of falling.

Paul BUILDS on his Chapter 2 thesis that contrasts those that REPENT and go to heaven with those that are merely "hearers of the law". His contrast of those that are judged in the future as SHOWING that the Law is written on their heart - vs those that rebel against God.

Paul seems to address the issue of whether or not “God is stuck with Israel” even if they fail – as if He must continue to use them or declare His promises a failure.

But wait! JUST as Paul shows in Romans 2 "a bigger gospel scope than just Jews" SO Also in Romans 3 a "bigger gospel" scope is seen.

In Christ,

Bob

 

KEY POINT: God Gospel opens God up to evaluation -- judged and “found true” – God allows Himself to be evaluated
This is essential in a FREE WILL system. It reveals truth about God and compels a Free Will universe to obey.

Having contrasted both the saints and the wicked - and having addressed AT LENGTH the judgment of God upon the wicked and the REWARD of the sinners (in chapter 2), Paul now advances the subject to that of God HIMSELF being evaluated.

We know that God IS Just, but Paul here gives a KEY concept regarding the term JUSTIFICATION as used in chapter 2. Here in chapter 3 it is being used the SAME way with respect to God Himself. Here there is innescapable connection between JUSTIFICATION and Judgment by a non-God non-all-knowing group. It is a JUSTIFICATION based on EVIDENCE, based on ACTION and DEEDS. It is a once for all pronouncement that was NOT already done with no possibility of future evaluation.

This is the second crucial part of an important judgment concept established in chapter two. It si being ADVANCED in chapter three. In chapter two we discovered a future judgment of works and in chapter 3 we find that it is NOT just man that faces an evaluation of his own deeds but God HIMSELF is subject to evaluation by His inferior - non-all-knowing created beings.

All this evaluation, evidence, conclusion drawn after consideration of the detail, individual specific facts - is a very good indication that God is allowing this entire sin experiment for an actual reason. He allows for investigation - PROOF - in the lives of those He declares righteous - to DEMONSTRATE that His pronouncement is Just. Our REBELLION demonstrates He is just when He condemns and our OBEDIENCE demonstrates He is just when He declares a NEW BIRTH has occured and NEW CREATION started.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------
KEY QUESTION: How can our rebellion be “bad” if it serves to show the goodness of God “by contrast”?? Aren’t we really “helping Him” by being so bad?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KEY POINT: Paul has made the claim of God’s accusers. Paul declares that the anti-law pro-rebellion pro-law-breaking pro-sin movement is from those who find fault with God and His Law.

Here we have Paul going right to the heart of a false accusation made against the Gospel. The charge that the Gospel sanctions SIN or REBELLION. That it has no concern that someone who CLAIMS to have chosen Christ - in FACT bears STILL the fruit of Rebellion. He has already established the fact that rebellion will not be “rewarded with eternal life” in Chapter 1 and 2 so this one sentence foray into the arguments of Christianity’s accusers is not misleading to the reader.

God’s Wrath and Righteousness:

Notice that the wrath of God Paul identified in chapter 1 and 2 – is still affirmed as “fact” in chapter 3:5. As we recall--

Some charge that God can only save those that are worthy to be saved by having lived a pure life - or more specifically by being BORN a Jew - free from need of a Savior. They argue that by OFFERING Salvation to ALL who REPENT and THEN become DOERS of the LAW (as was stated in chapter 2) Paul's Gospel LOWERS the standard. The riff-raff will come in by the millions. They argue that any claim that God is HONORED and GLORIFIED by SAVING Gentiles - is to simply throw out the high standard of being a Jew. What good is it to be born a Jew if you have to enter heaven the same way as Gentiles? They charge that Paul has turned his back on those jews that are not only BORN Jews but invented their own system of laws showing just how superior they were to BOTH common Jews and all Gentiles. Indeed, in their own minds they Don't NEED a Savior.

But Paul's chapter -2 Gospel already argued for REPENTANCE (as he already demonstrates in Chapter 2 - that ROCK SOLID non-snippet-Gospel chapter!!). Paul is not about to REFUTE that Gospel. The Gospel proclamation of chapter 2 tells us that repentance and forgiveness are offered to all sinners - even Gentiles (gasp!!! some of the Hebrews). Chapter 2 told us that God was "no respecter of persons" arbitrarily condemning Gentiles due to their heritage - but rather REWARDING in a FUTURE judgment - those that REPENT and are "DOERS of the LAW".

Here Paul shows complete argeement with his own point just made - "there is no partiality with God" Romans 2:11 All are declared
to be "unrighteous" and in need of a savior - in need of repentance in chapter 3.

All who come to God must come to Him in "repentance" for sins - Romans 2:4 "For it is the kindness of God that leads you to repentance". Chapter two had the "starting context" of Gospel repentance and contrasts those who accept that Gospel gift vs
those who reject it and remain in rebellion.

Chapter 3 establishes the pre-Gospel context of sinful nature - without repentance, without the new birth, without the New
Covenant. None righteous, no one with the New Covenant promise of the Law written on the tablets of the human heart. (2Cor 3:3,
Heb 8:10). Its starting point is the lost state - before accepting the Gospel. The total depravity of the sinful nature - enslaved
to sin.

All have sinned - all need repentance - God will not be partial to any - either you accept repentance and forgiveness or you
will remain in your sins - for all have sinned.

Notice how Paul is doing his best to set all upon level ground - no matter the heritage ":no partiality with God", all have sinned
all stand in need of salvation - all are in need of "the kindness of God that leads you to repentance"-

 

Paul has asserted that we must individually confess our NEED of Salvation and accept the offer of repentance made to ALL. Now here in chapter 3 he presents the ugliest possible portrayal of the unsaved, un-regenerate, unChristlike nature. He declares that ALL are in this state in God's eyes - before they are born again. ALL are in NEED of A Savior. Paul shows mankind as depraved and enslaved
to sin. Indeed in Romans 8 he affirms the unregenerate heart "does not subject itself to the law of God - indeed it can NOT".

Those that argue this is the state of man AFTER receiving our Savior, being born again and having his law written in our heart -- are denying the benefits provided by Christ saving us from BOTH the penalty of sin and saving us FROM sin. "Faithful to forgive us
our sins AND to cleans us from all unrighteousness". 1John 1:9

Paul is denying the charge that JEWS coast in first class but Gentiles alone are sinners and can come in only if they avail themselves of the Gospel offer of repentace that we saw in Romans 2:4..

ALL are called to repent, acknowledge our need of Christ and then become "DOERS of the Law" Romans 2:13

Paul describes man's NEED for a Savior in global terms -- "ALL have sinned". Terms that apply to all mankind in our depraved - natural sinful nature The infallible text above IS NOT speaking of the Gospel fact of Gal 2:20 that declares "The LIFE I Now live in the flesh I LIVE by faith" .Paul is not arguing that we live a depraved, sinful - enslaved life "by faith" such that "It is NO LONGER I who LIVE but CHRIST that Lives IN me" - Gal 2:20 committing all these sins. The New birth, New Creation, New Covenant life of the law of God written on the tablets of the human heart (Heb 8:10, 2Cor 3:3) is not the subject of the first half of Romans 3. But it is reflected in the last verse of Romans 3.

. The text above is NOT the fruit by which Christ said in Matt 7 that we would know the TRUE teachers and prophets of God. Rather Paul is describing the life ENSLAVED to sin - fully committed to evil in God's eyes. The condition we are all in BEFORE the New Birth.

Do NOT miss this!!! Draw a BIG Key in your Bible next to this verse. Paul uses KEY PHRASES. To understand Paul you must know HIS definition for HIS key phrases. The key phrase above is "UNDER THE LAW". In today's rebellion many WANT the term to mean "those that WANT to OBEY the LAW are those UNDER the LAW". Paul's Gospel in chapter 2 already fully refutes that. Here in chapter 3 Paul spells it out clearly - "UNDER THE LAW" is his term used to expose the idea of being fully CONDEMNED by the LAW. His term "become ACCOUNTABLE to God" is used exclusively in the NEGATIVE condemning sense. Need more proof? vs 20!

Paul makes the point clearly here that he has NOT used the LAW as a MEANS of salvation. He also gives us ANOTHER KEY PHRASE - "works of the LAW". This concept IS NOT USED in context of someone that accepts Christ as Savior and then chooses to OBEY God. Rather it is CLEARLY used as an ALTERNATE to a Savior. This is not about someone COMBINING Salvation with OBEDIENCE it is about someone DENYING the need of salvation and opting for a system of WORKS without the Savior.

Paul's statement also tells us that as long as the concept of SIN is valid (as long as a being has the possibility of Sinning) the LAW exists and is in force, for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The chapter 2 "DOERS of the LAW" are NOT in this category of "Works of the LAW" because they are NOT those who say "I HAVE NO SAVIOR I NEED NO SAVIOR". Rather they are those who REPENT and accept salvation - their becoming a DOER of the LAW - PROVES in the judgment that they indeed had GENIUNE REPENTANCE. PROOF to ALL the non-God non-all-knowing Beings.

Paul has already stated that it is the "doers" not the "hearers only" that "are justified" by our IMPARTIAL God. So what is this? As has already been mentioned on this message board, there are TWO kinds of justification. Paul has already dealt with the FIRST type of LEGAL PUBLIC justification as it relates to BOTH man and God.

That FIRST form of justification (w.r.t. man) is the legal and public pronouncement by God in the presence of the members of His kingdom - that a SPECIFIC person IS JUSTIFIED. The SECOND form of justification is now being used in vs 24. It is the transaction that occurs for each one of us NOW - before one good deed is done. Apart from ANY public announcement SPECIFIC to ONLY one indiviual. The justification that happens at the very START - that brings THE NEW BIRTH. The justification that is appealed to REPEATEDLY - DAILY 1Cor 15 by each one of us who say with Paul "I die daily". That justification DOES NOT consist of a public KINGDOM pronouncement.

In other words, God does not start the day with "OK these people have retained their walk with Me and these are the list of names that have - fallen from Grace, and then this is the list of names that were already not saved yesterday".

 

This INSTANT and FIRST CAUSE justification - is truly a FREE GIFT. IT is given "while we are yet sinners". It is the BASIS upon which God can place within us - HIS Holy Spirit. It's benefit is such that IF we were to die at that moment WE WOULD be bound for heaven. Satan's only hope after that point is to turn us away from that WALK in justification. That Justification is NOT a MONTRA, a magic phrase, a better-theology - it is a LIVING WALK.

One of the myriad errors made by some who fail to take this chapter seriously along with the rest of scripture is that of insisting the text "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" should be CHANGED in such a way as to FORCE us to ALL SIN CONTINUOUSLY saved or NOT. They attempt to twist the translation to get it to reflect ONGOING SLAVERY to sin. They want the term FALL SHORT - to become CONTINUOUSLY FALLING SHORT BY PERPETUAL FAILURE. (something totally denied in chapter 2 and 6 and 8 and 11 and...).

The term FALL SHORT in vs 23 is the SAME term that we find in 2Cor 11:9 translated "was in need". Actually it is translated 3 times as "NEED" and only once as "FALL SHORT". Indeed we ALL are in NEED of the GLORY of GOD we HAVE all SINNED --- we all have SINNED and fall short of the Glory of GOD! Just as it reads. Thank you translators!!

Letting the TEXT simply SPEAK for itself - what a concept! What a relief!!

Some Translations use “propitiation” instead of “Atoning Sacrifice” or “expiation”.
However this same word is used in Ezek 44:27 “Sin offering”.

We also see this word used in 1John with clear reference to the atoning sacrifice – the sacrifice of atonement.

NIV


This term is used repeatedly in Lev 16:2, 14,15 … etc with the definite article (THE) to reference THE Mercy Seat of the Most Holy Place.


Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida, Editors
Copyright © 1988, 1989 by the United Bible Societies, New York, NY 10023
Second Edition. Used by permission.

Landkarten zur Bible, prepared by Karl Elliger, revised by Siegfried Mittmann. Designed by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft Stuttgart and Kartographisches Institut Helmut Fuchs Leonberg. Copyright ©1963, 1978, 1990 by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart. Used by permission.

Electronic text hypertexted and prepared by OakTree Software, Inc.
Version 3.3

40.12 i°lasmo/ß, ouv m; i°lasth/riona, ou n: the means by which sins are forgiven — ‘the means of forgiveness, expiation.’
i°lasmo/ßÚ aujto\ß i°lasmo/ß e?stin peri« tw?n a?martiw?n hJmw?n ‘(Christ) himself is the means by which our sins are forgiven’ 1Jn 2:2.
i°lasth/rionaÚ o§n proe÷qeto oJ qeo\ß i°lasth/rion dia» thvß pi÷stewß ‘God offered him as a means by which sins are forgiven through faith (in him)’ Ro 3:25.
Though some traditional translations render i°lasth/rion as ‘propitiation,’ this involves a wrong interpretation of the term in question. Propitiation is essentially a process by which one does a favor to a person in order to make him or her favorably disposed, but in the NT God is never the object of propitiation since he is already on the side of people. i°lasmo/ß and i°lasth/riona denote the means of forgiveness and not propitiation.

Forensic justice and payment! You bet! Christ is here said to pay our debt by His BLOOD. This addresses the moral influence group because the plan of salvation is NOT a plan hatched by sinful man, but rather it is a complex masterpiece of God Himself. It is not as though man made it up because MAN could only imagine that DEATH is required to get us back to a loving God. Instead it is solely God's plan - His mind ALONE demanded this "plan of salvation". Man's mind had nothing to do with insisting that God receive payment via His own death - the death of Christ. Even the angels found the suggestion repulsive.

And in that PAYMENT God is found to be BOTH JUST and the JUSTIFIER of the one who has faith. Is it any wonder that He can so freely send His Spirit with the Gospel message to CONVICT of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment. It is all part of being BOTH Just and the Justifier.

OK BIG MONSTER KEY TIME AGAIN!! The key phrase here is "Works of the LAW". It is a phrase used by Paul almost EXCLUSIVELY in the negative. Note the ALTERNATIVE to this position (as Paul states it) is explicitly - "the God of the JEWS ONLY". Paul is dealing EXCLUSIVELY with the JEWISH CONCEPT of SAVED BY BIRTH into ISRAEL - WITHOUT NEED of a SAVIOR. Paul's use of the term "WORKS OF THE LAW" is overwhelmingly used in the negative throughout his writings. It DEALS with the VIEW OF LAW that would argue that ONLY JEWS can be saved!! It deals with an argument that DENIES the need for REPENTANCE or the NEED of a SAVIOR or the OFFER of SALVATION to the World.

Now feel free to track the use of this phrase through the remainder of Paul's writings. Check it out!

Here is the Law established "through faith" as we saw in Romans 2 - "the doers" were "justified". And we even had a succeeding example given in chapter two showing how faith "established the law" - for those with the New Covenant promise of the law written on the tablets of the human heart (Romans 2:13-16, Heb 8:10, 2Cor 3:3). Full and perfect agreement between chapter 3 and chapter 2 of Romans.
The ONE Gospel fully functioning in both OT and NT did not "Die in the OT each time someone obeyed Christ the Creator and entered into the blessing of the Sabbath made FOR mankind" as many have supposed.

So Paul points out that the faithful are not finding new ways to "Abolish God's LAW" as if THAT is the secret to salvation. Rather Paul is attacking those who make that claim. Paul is saying that the faithful are the only ones actually honoring and obeying God's Law for "It is not longer I who live but CHRIST that LIVES in ME"[b/] Gal 2:20

So Paul asks the pointed question "in that context" "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God"Rom 3:31

--Then the question is, if we are justified by faith, and not by keeping the law (like the Sabbath), does that imply that the law is worthless? No, not at all. Contrariwise, the gospel establishes the law

When the Law says that mankind is to continue to keep Christ the Creator's Seventh-day as a continued "blessing" made "FOR mankind" - the Gospel is the only way to "keep the day Holy" for we ourselves are sanctified and set apart for obedience to Christ - not rebellion.

The same is true with Lev 19:18 loving our Neighbor

The same is true with Deut 6:5 Love God with all our heart.

The same is true with Exodus 20:12 Honoring our parents.

Real obedience to the Real law of God because "It is no longer I who Live but Christ that lives IN Me and the LIFE I LIVE in the Flesh I LIVE by faith in the Son of God" Gal 2:20

So that anyone who "Says he has come to know Him and yet does NOT keep His commandments" is a liar. 1John 2:4

In fact John calls us to "observe" those who walk in rebellion against Chris the Creator -

The law demands perfect obedience. The penalty for breaking the law is death. One who breaks God's law will be lost eternally. The gospel tells how Christ died to pay the penalty of the broken law. He did not treat the law as a thing to be ignored. He paid the debt in full.

Now, anyone who has broken the law can avail himself of the fact that Christ paid the penalty on his behalf. Thus believing in the gospel by faith establishes or upholds the law. It insists that it demands be met

Yes indeed - the demand of the Law that we suffer and die - the second death is MET - because Christ did that for us - in our place He paid our debt for sin.

But more than that - He makes us into a "New Creation" with "The LAW of God written on the heart" Heb 8
- in fact on the "Tablets of the Human heart" 2Cor 3:3.

And so by the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the flesh (Rom 8) and we LOVE Christ and we KEEP His pre-cross COMMANDMENTS for
"Christ is the SAME yesterday today and forever" Heb 13:8

The Establishing rather than Abolishing comes not “only” in the form of PAYING the debt the LAW demands but “also” in the Gospel “new Creation” that is walking in harmony and obedience to the LAW of God - rather than in continued rebellion against it.

Praise God for His infinite infallible Word!!!

[ September 04, 2005, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

I don't have all day every day brother! You practically wrote out a book!

First point by you...

Why does it mean "this addresses everyone-the saved and unsaved"?

You have already placed a premise that is not plainly stated in the passage. How then can we honestly debate what the passage is saying? Back up and start over without any premises and we can debate the passage line by line. There is nothing to suggest that Paul is speaking about the saved and the unsaved. You were right as far as to say "Romans 2 actually deals with the impartiality of God wrt to Jews and Gentiles, those who have the bible and those who do not". Beyond that you have tainted the possibility of us ever coming to any agreement on the passage.

God Bless!