2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

1 Jim: //Likewise, do you believe that “the Son of man coming on the clouds” in Matthew 24:30 and the sounding of “a trumpet” and the “gathering together of the elect” in Matthew 24:31 is not “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 or the sounding of “the trumpet” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 or the “catching up together” of the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, who are the “election” (1 Thessalonians 1:4), or that it is not “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” or “our gathering together to Him” in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and that “His coming” in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is not “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15? //

Woah! You training for or a practicing Lawyer?
I haven't seen such a complex question since the last time
i had jury duty. ANd there was the Judge saying "Answer 'yes' or 'no'.


Well, there is no yes/no answer here.

“the Son of man coming on the clouds” in Matthew 24:30
IS NOT THE SAME AS “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15

the “gathering together of the elect” in Matthew 24:31
IS THE SAME AS the “catching up together” of the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17

the sounding of “a trumpet” in Matthew 24:31
IS THE SAME AS the sounding of “the trumpet” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16
(However, they are not the 7th Trumpet of Revealtion)

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

 

Hi BobRyan,


BobRyan:

Jesus said that he was going away to heaven to prepare a place for us in His Father's house. He said He would come again and RECEIVE US (up) to Himself. So we expect Him to return at the second coming (one time) as He says in John 14 AND we expect that return to happen as is described in 1Thess 4 and in Rev 19. At ONE time. Rapturing us UP to Him and taking us to heaven.


Jim:

The word translated “place” in John 14:2-3 is “topoV” (place, position). In John 11:48 (quoted below), it refers to the political position or status of the Jewish hierarchy. In Acts 26:18 (quoted below), it refers to Paul’s opportunity (associated with status) to defend himself. Therefore, the “place” that Jesus went to heaven to prepare for us in John 14:2-3 could very well be the position/status (topoV) of “children of God” or the opportunity (topoV) to become “children of God” (described in the passages below). It was necessary for Christ to perform His Priestly duty in the heavenly tabernacle in order for us to become children of God (Hebrews 9:11-18, quoted below), so that He would become the firstborn among many brothers (Romans 8:29, quoted below).

The word translated “mansions” in John 14:2 is “monh” (dwelling). The only other place this word is used is 21 verses later in verse 14:23, where Jesus says (ASV), “If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our ABODE (monh) with him.” Here, “monh” clearly does not refer to an actual building. So there is every reason to think that it doesn’t refer to actual buildings in verse 14:2 either. One very plausible meaning is the believer’s “habitation which is from heaven” in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (quoted below), that is, the resurrection body that every believer will receive at the coming of the Lord. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (quoted below), this habitation from heaven will not be inhabited by the believer in heaven but in the clouds of the earth as Christ returns to earth. There would be no need for the believer to go to heaven to inhabit this habitation. Jesus does not say in John 14:3 (quoted below) that He will come again and receive the believer to Himself so that He would take the believer to heaven, but so that the believer would be with Him where He is, which is not in heaven but on earth; He will “come again” to earth.

I don’t understand how you reach the conclusion that Revelation 19 describes an evacuation of the saints to heaven. This chapter clearly describes Christ returning to earth first to smite and then to rule the nations of the earth.

(ASV) John 1:12 But as many as received him, TO THEM GAVE HE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, [even] to them that believe on his name:

(ASV) John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans will come and take away both our PLACE (topoV) and our nation.

(ASV) John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many MANSIONS (monh); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a PLACE (topoV) for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a PLACE (topoV) for you, I COME AGAIN, AND WILL RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; THAT WHERE I AM, [THERE] YE MAY BE ALSO.

(ASV) John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our ABODE (monh) with him.

(ASV) Acts 25:16 To whom I answered, that it is not the custom of the Romans to give up any man, before that the accused have the accusers face to face, and have had OPPORTUNITY (topoV) to make his defense concerning the matter laid against him.

(ASV) Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD: 17 AND IF CHILDREN, THEN HEIRS; HEIRS OF GOD, AND JOINT-HEIRS WITH CHRIST; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him]. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. ... 23 ... even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for [our] adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for it. ... 28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, [even] to them that are called according to [his] purpose. 29 For WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO FOREORDAINED [TO BE] CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, THAT HE MIGHT BE THE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN: 30 and whom he foreordained, them HE ALSO CALLED: and whom he called, them HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and whom he justified, them HE ALSO GLORIFIED. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for us, who [is] against us? ... 9:8 ... it is not the children of the flesh that are CHILDREN OF GOD; but THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE RECKONED FOR A SEED.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, AT HIS COMING. ... 50 Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

(ASV) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have A BUILDING FROM GOD, A HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, ETERNAL, IN THE HEAVENS. 2 For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with OUR HABITATION WHICH IS FROM HEAVEN: 3 if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, THAT WHAT IS MORTAL MAY BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE. 5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 415 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto THE COMING OF THE LORD, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, SHALL TOGETHER WITH THEM BE CAUGHT UP IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(ASV) Hebrews 3:3 For he hath been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by so much as he that built the house hath more honor than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some one; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were afterward to be spoken; 6 but Christ as a son, over HIS HOUSE; WHOSE HOUSE ARE WE, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.

(ASV) Hebrews 8:1 Now in the things which we are saying the chief point [is this]: We have such a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister of the sanctuary, and of THE TRUE TABERNACLE, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is necessary that this [high priest] also have somewhat to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are those who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve [that which is] a copy and shadow of THE HEAVENLY THINGS, even as Moses is warned [of God] when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount.

(ASV) Hebrews 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, THROUGH THE GREATER AND MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, 12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but THROUGH HIS OWN BLOOD, ENTERED IN ONCE FOR ALL INTO THE HOLY PLACE, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling them that have been defiled, sanctify unto the cleanness of the flesh: 14 HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, WHO THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT OFFERED HIMSELF WITHOUT BLEMISH UNTO GOD, CLEANSE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD? 15 AND FOR THIS CAUSE HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF A NEW COVENANT, THAT A DEATH HAVING TAKEN PLACE FOR THE REDEMPTION OF THE TRANSGRESSIONS THAT WERE UNDER THE FIRST COVENANT, THEY THAT HAVE BEEN CALLED MAY RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE ETERNAL INHERITANCE. 16 For where a testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him that made it. 17 For a testament is of force where there hath been death: for it doth never avail while he that made it liveth. 18 Wherefore EVEN THE FIRST [COVENANT] HATH NOT BEEN DEDICATED WITHOUT BLOOD.

(ASV) Hebrews 10:19 HAVING THEREFORE, BRETHREN, BOLDNESS TO ENTER INTO THE HOLY PLACE BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS, 20 BY THE WAY WHICH HE DEDICATED FOR US, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 AND [HAVING] A GREAT PRIEST OVER THE HOUSE OF GOD; 22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water, 23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised: 24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works; 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting [one another]; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.


Jim

 

I think it is so interesting how the various eschatological viewpoints
depend upon such simple words.

1. 'He' or 'he' in Daniel 9:27

The Peterest viewpoint says 'He' is the Messiah.
The Futurist viewpoint says 'he' is the evil Prince (AKA: Antichrist).

2. 'and' in 2 Thess 2:1

(like this is the subject of this Topic)

BTW, every 'and' doesn't have to have the same meaning as the
other 'and'

3. first 'and' in Matthew 25:31

4. 'and' in Rev. 20:4

5. 'first' in Rev. 20:5

Here are some meanings of 'and' in English and 'kai' in Greek:

1. a comparision of two similiar sets
2. connecting two equal sets (different set descriptor but same elements)
3. a subordination of a set and one of it's subsets
4. the polysendenton 'and' used in Greek instead of an English language outline.

 

Hi Ed,

My point is that when the same language is used in all the passages in reference to the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints, ones needs a really good reason to conclude that they're not referring to the same event. And there is no such reason.

Jim

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

“the Son of man coming on the clouds” in Matthew 24:30 IS NOT THE SAME AS “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15.


Jim:

Why not ... other than that you simply don’t want it to be? Is there anything in the language itself to indicate that these are not two references to the same event? I certainly don’t see it. Anytime we don’t like what we see in the Bible, we can always just arbitrarily claim that there are two of everything and that the reference in question actually refers to the other one of the two.


Ed:

the “gathering together of the elect” in Matthew 24:31 IS THE SAME AS the “catching up together” of the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.


Jim:

How? If “the Son of man coming on the clouds” in Matthew 24:30 is not the same as “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, how can the “gathering together of the elect” in Matthew 24:31 be the same as the “catching up together” of the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17?


Ed:

the sounding of “a trumpet” in Matthew 24:31 IS THE SAME AS the sounding of “the trumpet” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (However, they are not the 7th Trumpet of Revelation)


Jim:

Again, if “the Son of man coming on the clouds” in Matthew 24:30 is not the same as “the coming of the Lord” in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, how can the sounding of “a trumpet” in Matthew 24:31 be the same as the sounding of “trumpet” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16?


Ed:

Jesus answers these questions in Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with some parables.


Jim:

Here’s the most immediate analogy that He poses:

(ASV) Matthew 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth; 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; 50 the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, 51 and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

This describes a single coming of the Lord being experienced two different ways, depending on whether one is good or evil. The same coming of the Lord that places the good one in authority over all that the Lord has also cuts asunder the evil one, bringing destruction to him (as a thief).


Ed:

I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed? Matthew 24:4-14
2. What is the sign of His coming? Matthew 24:15-30
3. What is the sign of the end of age? Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the Rapture/resurrection which ends the current church age (gentile age, age of grace, last days, etc.)


Jim:

I don’t know why you relegate Matthew 24:14, where Jesus says, “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come,” to the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

His coming is what initiates the end of the world/age. Everything described in Matthew 24:5-29 must precede His coming and the end of the world/age, including the unprecedented period of tribulation in Matthew 24:21-22:

(ASV) Matthew 13:37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one]; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD; and the reapers are angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

(ASV) Matthew 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, (1) when shall these things be? and (2) what [shall be] the sign of THY COMING, and (3) of THE END OF THE WORLD?

All of the analogies in Matthew 25 are consistent with a single future coming of the Lord initiating two resurrections and judgments, the first being that of the good, the second being that of the evil. According to Revelation 20, these two resurrections and judgments will be separated by a thousand-year reign of Christ and His saints on earth:

(ASV) Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(ASV) Matthew 8:5 And when he was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 and saying, Lord, my servant lieth in the house sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. ... 8 And the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. ... 10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: 12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

(ASV) Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee; what then shall we have? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath left houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit eternal life. 30 But many shall be last [that are] first; and first [that are] last.

(ASV) Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were foolish, and five were wise. ... 6 But at midnight there is a cry, Behold, the bridegroom! Come ye forth to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are going out. 9 But the wise answered, saying ... buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.

(ASV) Matthew 25:14 For [it is] as [when] a man, going into another country, called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one; to each according to his several ability; and he went on his journey. ... 19 Now after a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and maketh a reckoning with them. 20 And he that received the five talents came and brought other five talents ... 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant ... I will set thee over many things ... 22 And he also that [received] the two talents came and said ... I have gained other two talents. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant ... I will set thee over many things ... 24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man ... 25 ... and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own. 26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant ... 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given ... but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away. 30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

(ASV) Matthew 25:31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them ... 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom ... 35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat ... 40 ... Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren ... ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat ... 45 ... Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

(ASV) Luke 13:23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, open to us; and he shall answer and say to you, I know you not whence ye are; 26 then shall ye begin to say, We did eat and drink in thy presence, and thou didst teach in our streets; 27 and he shall say, I tell you, I know not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without. 29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last.

(ASV) Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

(ASV) Revelation 3:21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

(ASV) Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood [men] of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, 10 and madest them [to be] unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they (shall) reign upon earth.

(ASV) Revelation 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war. ... 14 And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white [and] pure. 15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

(ASV) Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are finished ... 12 ... I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. ... 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire. 15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.


Jim

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

I have no patience with post toasties.


Jim:

Your comment would be better appreciated if I knew what a “post toasty (or toastie)” was. I did a Google search to no avail. Maybe you could explain. What is it about “post toasties” that causes you to loose patience? As far as I can tell, all I’m doing is pointing out some Biblical facts that don’t happen to agree with your view.


Jim

 

1jim,

Hi! Nice to meet you. You are not alone in this topic debate with pretribbers on rapture. I am also believe in a single future coming of Christ at the end of the world.

Jim, you are right, I agree with you. I know you do not interpreting scriptures into your own logical or opinion. You understand scriptures so well, same as I read them and understand so well.

No way for pretribbers to 'prove' there are two or more future comings in the Bible. Because there is no hint find anywhere in the Scripture saying there will be multiply comings. Clearly, it teaches there is the only one future coming of Christ.

12 years ago, whilst myself was pretrib. One day, my friends showed me of 2 Thess. 2:1-3. I told them, when I read verses, I will sign it, I must follow and agree what verses saying." When I read 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Verse 3 hits me so hard. I was shocked that Paul telling us, our gathering together/day of Christ shall not come till we must see the increasing signs of apostasy, and the revealed of Antichrist. 2 Thess. 2:1-3 caused me left pretrib camp, and never return back to my former beliefs again. Because 2 Thess. 2:1-3 does not fit with pretrib doctrine.

Also, in 1997, at bible college in the dorm. I showed my roommate of 2 Thess. 2:1-3. He immediated left pretrib camp just one second after he read 2 Thess. 2:1-3. He agreed and follow what 2 Thess. 2:1-3 saying. He never return back to his former beliefs of pretrib camp again since 1997 to now.

Wow! Can't believe how quick that my roommate determined left pretrib camp and follow 2 Thess. 2:1-3 completed.

I cannot understand why Ed and many pretribbers seem cannot accept what the scriptures saying that Christ shall come again once after the tribulation? I guess they are already brianwashed by listening to teachers, pastors, books instead listening what the Scriptures saith.

I urge every pretribbers better listen and accept what the Scriptures saying, believe, follow them. The truth shall make you free. Do not follow what the men saying, better follow what the Bible saying according Colossians 2:8.

1jim,

PLEASE keep it up!!! I am behind you and support you all the way while you continue discuss with them on scriptures.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Is the Rapture and the return of Christ (as stated in Revelation 19) the same event?

Consider the following:

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32-33 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

So, no one will know the day or the hour that Christ returns. Yet we see:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

So, when the Anti-Christ stands in the temple and declares himself god, he shall have 1290 days. We know that Christ shall remove the Anti-Christ (Rev. 19:19-20) and end his "reign". Thus, we would know exactly (to the day) when Christ would come.

Conclusion:
The Rapture must occur separate from the events spoken of in Revelation 19.

 

Yes. And vica-versa as well.

The Baptist Faith and Message 2002 says:

X. Last Things

God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

This allows pretrib and post-trib and other x-trib positions.
This allows any x-mill postion that does Not spiritualize away the
physical return of Jesus Christ sometime, somehow.

Pastors that are trained to be pastors (in real schools)
should know what the various Eschatological believes are and be
able to explain them. I know i can

 

Prophecynut: "The Tribulation saints will know
the month He returns, but not the 'day or hour'."

Uh, 'day or hour' means time, of which 'month'
is also an element.

BTW, your words are almost exactly what
the fellow who precicted the
start of ww3 by a massive Russian/US exchange
of nuclear weapons -- predicted for
23 Sept 1988 /Jerusalem time/ -- what he
said when it prediction failed to be true.

If you know the year, month, week, day,
hour, minute -- you know the 'day or hour'.

BTW, the pretrib rapture/resurrection
is now imminent, has been imminent since
33AD, and will be imminent until Jesus
comes.

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

1 Thess. 5:3 "While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly." There must be peace and safety in the Middle East and the world before that day can begin. There's no way that day can begin with the Second Coming because of the wars, destruction and "desolations" of the Tribulation prior to His coming.


John:

(ASV) Revelation 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and THEY SHALL PROPHESY A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS (3..5 YEARS), clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, FIRE PROCEEDETH OUT OF THEIR MOUTH AND DEVOURETH THEIR ENEMIES; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed. 6 THESE HAVE THE POWER TO SHUT THE HEAVEN, THAT IT RAIN NOT DURING THE DAYS OF THEIR PROPHECY: AND THEY HAVE POWER OVER THE WATERS TO TURN THEM INTO BLOOD, AND TO SMITE THE EARTH WITH EVERY PLAGUE, as often as they shall desire. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT COMETH UP OUT OF THE ABYSS SHALL MAKE WAR WITH THEM, AND OVERCOME THEM, AND KILL THEM. 8 And their dead bodies [lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do [men] look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And THEY THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH REJOICE OVER THEM, AND MAKE MERRY; AND THEY SHALL SEND GIFTS ONE TO ANOTHER; BECAUSE THESE TWO PROPHETS TORMENTED THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH. 11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and GREAT FEAR FELL UPON THEM THAT BEHELD THEM. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And IN THAT HOUR THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly. 15 And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; AND THERE FOLLOWED GREAT VOICES IN HEAVEN, AND THEY SAID, THE KINGDOM OF THE WORLD IS BECOME [THE KINGDOM] OF OUT LORD, AND OF HIS CHRIST: AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER. 16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign. 18 And the nations were wroth, and thy wrath came, and the time of the dead to be judged, and [the time] to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth.


Jim:

Apparently there will be a lull between the “plagues” and “the Day of the Lord / the Day of Christ,” which Day will be initiated by the coming of the Lord.


Jim

 

Prophecynut: //Rev. 9:15
"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Is the above a precise moment or a duration of time?//

Neither. The statement means that God prepared them for the exact time
that God wanted these events to happen.

Prophecynut: //Edgar C. Whisenant is the author of "88 REASONS why the Rapture is in 1988" - He relied on his intellect and mathematics, I rely on OT prophecies.//

Actually he didn't use much intellect.
Actually he used some arithemetic (the kiddy branch of mathematics).

Prophecynut: //I know the day and hour of the Rapture, not the day and hour of the Second Coming.//

I know the day and hour of the Second Coming2, given the start of the
rapture. Second Coming1 = all events that happen from the rapture/resurrection
to the Second Coming2.

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

There is also a lull between the first and second woes, Rev. 9:12. Big deal, no where in Rev. is their peace. There are numerous OT prophecies on the "Peace and safety" prior to the Tribulation but none in Rev.


Paul:

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD SO COMETH AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. 3 WHEN THEY ARE SAYING, PEACE AND SAFETY, THEN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMETH UPON THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 4 BUT YE, BRETHREN, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF (as a destroyer): 5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 FOR GOD APPOINTED US NOT INTO WRATH, BUT UNTO THE OBTAINING OF SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


The First Six Trumpets:

(ASV) Revelation 8:7 And THE FIRST SOUNDED, and there followed hail and fire, mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And THE SECOND ANGEL SOUNDED, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 and there died the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, [even] they that had life; and the third part of the ships was destroyed. 10 And THE THIRD ANGEL SOUNDED, and there fell from heaven a great star, burning as a torch, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of the waters; 11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And THE FOURTH ANGEL SOUNDED, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; that the third part of them should be darkened, and the day should not shine for the third part of it, and the night in like manner. 13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle, flying in mid heaven, saying with a great voice, WOE, WOE, WOE, FOR THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH, BY REASON OF THE OTHER VOICES OF THE TRUMPET OF THE THREE ANGELS, WHO ARE YET TO SOUND. 9:1 And THE FIFTH ANGEL SOUNDED, and I saw a star from heaven fallen unto the earth: and there was given to him the key of the pit of the abyss. ... 3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth ... 4 ... it was said unto them that they should ... hurt ... such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads. ... 5 ... that they should be tormented five months ... 12 THE FIRST WOE IS PAST: BEHOLD, THERE COME YET TWO WOES HEREAFTER. 13 And THE SIXTH ANGEL SOUNDED ... 15 And the four angels were loosed, that had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, that they should kill the third part of men. 16 And the number of the armies of the horsemen was twice ten thousand times ten thousand ... 18 By these three plagues was the third part of men killed, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone ... 20 And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not ... 10:7 ... IN THE DAYS OF THE VOICE OF THE SEVENTH ANGEL, WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO SOUND, THEN IS FINISHED THEY MYSTERY OF GOD, ACCORDING TO THE GOOD TIDINGS WHICH HE DECLARED TO HIS SERVANTS THE PROPHETS. ...

A Parenthetical View of the 3.5-Year Period of Plagues:

(11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and one said, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 And the court which is without the temple leave without, and measure it not; for it hath been given unto the nations: and THE HOLY CITY SHALL THEY TREAD UNDER FOOT FORTY AND TWO MONTHS (3.5 years). 3 And I WILL GIVE UNTO MY TWO WITNESSES, AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND THREESCORE DAYS (3.5 years), clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, FIRE PROCEEDETH OUT OF THEIR MOUTH AND DEVOURETH THEIR ENEMIES; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed. 6 THESE HAVE THE POWER TO SHUT THE HEAVEN, THAT IT RAIN NOT DURING THE DAYS OF THEIR PROPHECY: AND THEY HAVE POWER OVER THE WATERS TO TURN THEM INTO BLOOD, AND TO SMITE THE EARTH WITH EVERY PLAGUE, as often as they shall desire. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT COMETH UP OUT OF THE ABYSS SHALL MAKE WAR WITH THEM, AND OVERCOME THEM, AND KILL THEM. 8 And their dead bodies [lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do [men] look upon their dead bodies three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And THEY THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH REJOICE OVER THEM, AND MAKE MERRY; AND THEY SHALL SEND GIFTS ONE TO ANOTHER; BECAUSE THESE TWO PROPHETS TORMENTED THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH. 11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and THEY STOOD UPON THEIR FEET; AND GREAT FEAR FELL UPON THEM THAT BEHELD THEM. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and THEIR ENEMIES BEHELD THEM. 13 And IN THAT HOUR THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE, and the tenth part of the city fell; and THERE WERE KILLED IN THE EARTHQUAKE seven thousand persons: and THE REST WERE AFFRIGHTED, AND GAVE GLORY TO THE GOD OF HEAVEN.)

The Seventh Trumpet:

(ASV) Revelation 11:14 THE SECOND WOE IS PAST: BEHOLD, THE THIRD WOE COMETH QUICKLY. 15 And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, THE KINGDOM OF THE WORLD IS BECOME [THE KINGDOM] OF OUT LORD, AND OF HIS CHRIST: AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER. 16 And the four and twenty elders, who sit before God on their thrones, fell upon their faces and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast; because THOU HAST TAKEN THY GREAT POWER, AND DIDST REIGN. 18 AND THE NATIONS WERE WROTH, AND THY WRATH CAME, AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD TO BE JUDGED, AND [THE TIME] TO GIVE THEIR REWARD TO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND TO THE SAINTS, AND TO THEM THAT FEAR THY NAME, THE SMALL AND THE GREAT; AND TO DESTROY THEM THAT DESTROY THE EARTH. 19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and THERE FOLLOWED LIGHTNINGS, AND VOICES, AND THUNDERS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE, AND GREAT HAIL.


Jim:

Revelation 9:12 and Revelation 11:14 describe the transition from the fifth trumpet to the sixth trumpet and from the sixth trumpet to the seventh trumpet. There is no lull in either verse.

Revelation 11:1-13 is a parenthetical description of the 3.5 years of plagues that you yourself say leads up to the coming of the Lord. As long as the two witnesses are alive, the plagues continue. Then they are dead, and the plagues cease. As a result, the people of the earth have a party, because they think that their problems are over (11:10). Then, all of a sudden, the source of their torment revives and they wet their pants, and they experience the wrath of God—“and thy wrath came (11:18)”—at the coming of the Lord. This is consistent with Paul’s statement that unbelievers will be “saying, Peace and safety,” just before they suddenly experience destruction (as a thief) at the coming of the Lord (the onset of the Day of the Lord). The issue isn’t how you or I view Revelation but how the people on earth will view their circumstance at that time, as described in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and Revelation 11:10: “when they are SAYING, PEACE AND SAFETY ... they that dwell on the earth REJOICE over them, and MAKE MERRY; and they shall SEND GIFTS one to another; because these two prophets tormented them.” Both verses describe the state of mind of the people on earth just after the plagues and just before the coming of the Lord (as a thief). I think that you’re mistaken. I think that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and Revelation 11:10 are in fact consistent with one another. Paul does not say that that Day will not overtake believers. He says that it will not overtake them AS A THIEF (as a destroyer). Believers will experience that Day as salvation.


Jim