2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Ed says "precise moment" is not the same as "exact time," and people say I'm nuts! This is pathetic, I have nothing more to say. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't try to figure out what i'm saying.
God might have a message for you

You see, i'm an engineer. I make things that
work out of things that aren't totally
understood. There is a difference between
precise, accurate, and exact. And God knows
that difference but prophecynut does not.

Likewise there are differences between:

imminent and soon
first and one
'first and only' and 'first'
'falling away' and 'apostasy'
etc.

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

Jim, you reason like Ed.


Jim:

In 2 Peter 3, the topic of the entire chapter is the coming of the Lord, in reference to which Peter says that the Day of the Lord comes as a thief, bringing destruction. In Revelation 3:3 and 16:15, Jesus is said to come as a thief; and in Revelation 19, Jesus is described as coming to bring destruction (as a thief) to the nations, whom He will first smite and then rule.

In choosing to believe that the Bible does not teach that the Day of the Lord begins with the coming of the Lord, you're closing your eyes to this entire chapter (2 Peter 3).

The same thing in 1 Thessalonans 5. The context of this chapter is what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, which describes the resurrection of the saints at the coming of the Lord. The Day of the Lord comes as a thief, because the Lord comes as a thief, bringing destruction to unbelievers, but bringing salvation to believers. Paul says in chapter 5 that believers are not destined for wrath but for salvation (described in verses 4:13-18), both of which occur at the coming of the Day of the Lord (the coming of the Lord).

In 2 Thessalonians 1, when does Paul say that those who afflict the saints will be afflicted, and that those who are afflicted (the saints) will receive rest from their earthly afflictions? He says that this occurs when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His angels. Both the affliction of unbelievers and the believers' rest from their earthly afflictions occur at the same point in time, at the coming of the Lord, the coming of the Day of the Lord, which begins with the coming of the Lord (as taught by Peter in 2 Peter 3 as well as by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5), bringing both wrath and salvation, just as Paul had previously said in 1 Thessalonians 5.

I see nothing wrong with the kind of reasoning that leads a person to pay attention to what the Bible actually says.


Jim

 

Good choice of scriputre(s), Brothe 1jim!!!

2 Peter 3:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
Wherefore (beloued) seeing that ye looke
for such things, be diligent that ye may be found
of him in peace, without spot, and blamelesse

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloued, seeing yee know these things
before, beware lest yee also being led away with
the errour of the wicked, fall from your owne stedfastnesse.

These are the purpose for 2 Peter Chapter 3.
The purpose of Eschatology is to encourge proper
living RIGHT NOW.

Ed notes that relegating all or some of eschatological
fullfillment to the past deletes the call toward
proper Christian Living.

Only a Futuristic look at eschatological teachings
actually encourages a holy living now.

 

Brother Ed Edwards,
Thanks for your listing of passages on page one. Very good list.

Bro. Dallas

 

You are welcome Brother/moderator Frogman.

As my cannibal friend says:
"We are eager to serve you any time!

 

Revelation 20 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pitand a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


In the above verses, those scriptures which are in bold refer to the saved. Those scriptures which are in italic refer to the lost. Let us examine these scriptures, to see what transpires during the thousand years after Christ’s second coming, and before His third.


Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

I Corinthians 4 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I Corinthians 6 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there. Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.

The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why, or why not, certain people are, or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years. Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there. In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all.

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Then it says that this is the first resurrection. That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all. But rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.

Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. It also points out that the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.

Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected. Thus having died once already, at Christ’s second coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8, Rev. 6:14-17), they will die again, the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan. That both the saved, and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.

John 5 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.

So now, the wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God, and devours them (verse 9). This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, and the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15). The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period. This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).

Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast. The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period. Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.

Job 17 13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Psalm 30 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive,that I should not go down to the pit.

Proverbs 1 11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Isaiah 38 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Jeremiah 41 7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.

9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniah filled it with them that were slain.


In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead. A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people. If the bible then, tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave, with the dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it. This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead. Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations, or peoples to deceive. Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.

Jer 25: 30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.

Isaiah 14 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Though all the kings, and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial. Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead. He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands. Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.

Isaiah 24 18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days would be the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.

Revelation 21 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I want to be in that city, don’t you.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Brian30755 on another venue said: "I taught Daniel 7&8
last Sunday (ed: 21 Aug 05). Next Sunday (ed: 28Aug05)
is Daniel 9-12."

I especially like the end of Daniel 9 where the
split between preterist and Futurist hinges on the
resolution of the first 'he' in Daniel 9:27.
(I presume the second 'he' has the same referent
as the first 'he', but maybe there are other doctrines
hinging on that one verse.)

Dan 9:26-27 (KJV1611 Edition):

And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himselfe,
and the people of the Prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
27 And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading
of abominations hee shall make it desolate,
euen vntill the consummation, & that determined,
shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

IT is Daniel 9 that shows the relative timing of events.
It is the 70th week of Daniel which is the 7-year tribulation
period, the 7-year pouring out of God's wrath.

BTW, i believe there are 5 each 3½-year (half a week) periods
in Revealtion (and two in Daniel).

Equal periods:
3½-years (half a week)
1260 days
"time, times, and half a time" 1+2+½ = 3½-years
42 months
(some versions will spell out the numbers)

Dan 12:7 (KJV1611 Edition)
And I heard the man clothed in linnen, which was vpon the waters
of the riuer, when he held vp his right hand, and his left hand
vnto heauen, and sware by him that liueth for euer,
that it shalbe for a time, times, and an halfe:
and when hee shall haue accomplished to scatter
the power of the holy people, all these things
shall bee finished.

(the other Daniel reference is the 'midst of the week' which
gives two each 3½-year periods)

Rev 12:14 (KJV1611 Edition)
And to the woman were giuen two wings of a great Eagle, that
shee might flee into the wildernesse into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and halfe a time,
from the face of the serpent.

Rev 11:2 (KJV1611 Edition)But the Court which is without
the Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is
giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie shall
they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.

Rev 13:5 And there was giuen vnto him a mouth,
speaking great things, and blasphemies,
and power was giuen vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.

Rev 11:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses, and they
shall prophesie a thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath
a place prepared of God, that they should feed
her there a thousand, two hundred, and threescore dayes.

 

Rom 8:3537 (KJV1611 Edition):
Who shall separate vs from the loue of Christ?
shall tribulation, or distresse, or persecution,
or famine, or nakednesse,
or perill, or sword?
36 (As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all
the day long, wee are accounted as sheepe for the slaughter.)
37 Nay in all these things wee are more then conquerours,
through him that loued vs.


It refers to all Christians and Messanic Jews, National Jews.
It refers to #1, #2, #3 below.
It does not refer to the Tribulation Period #3 and #4.

------------------------------------------

The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

When I was a young Christian. I believed in 7 year tribulation period. I used to believed the book of Revelation was written into chronologically order. Like this:

7 seals - first 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation period

7 trumpets -during in the middle of seven year tribulation period

7 vials - during last 3 1/2 years of seven year tribulation period

Later, I realized that I learned Matthew 24:4-29 show of parallel with Rev. 6:2-15 comparing with 6 seals toward the second coming.

Then, later, I found there is comparing of 6th trumpet with 6th vial speak of Euphrate River dried up.

THe more I reading throughout book of Revelation, I learning more and understand. Book of Revelation was written to showing of retelling the passages, all of these are point toward second coming. All of these are merging together toward second coming.

Rev. 6:12-15 - comsmic disturbance - the end!! Fits with Matt. 24:29-30.

Rev. 10:7 - seventh angel with trumpet blown - the end!!

Rev. 11:15 - seventh trumpet blown - the end!!

Rev. 14:15-20 - harvest of the world - the end!!

Rev. 16:15- Christ as thief - the end!!

Rev. 19:11-21- the end!!

Rev. 20:7-10 - the end!!

By the way, we can find there are parallel of Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14 both are talking about the harvest of the world, as the 144,000 (believers of the world) shall be gathering together-rapture.

Also, Revelation chpater 12 and chapter 20 both showing the parallel about the history of Christ, Satan, and Church.

I realized the book of Revelation is not written into chronological order. But these showing us of retelling the events, all of these toward second coming.

So.... does the book of Revelation actual saying there will be SEVEN year of tribulation period??? No way you shall able to find a verse in the Bible saying there will be seven year of tribulation period. I don't mind anyone of you do math by adding days, months all go together into 7 years. I remember a posttriber made a post, and he gave a point, he said, is suppose you adding all of them totally, all of them shall be total would be about 16 years. Sixteen years??!

We have to understand that the book of Revelation is filled of symbols and figuratives. These numbers do not taking into literally. But these are figurativelly meanings.

Look at the example of Revelation 7:1-8 mentioned of 12 tribes of Israel, it saying there are 12,000 each of the tribes, all total are 144,000.

Do these telling us, all are exactly or specific numbers with each 12,000?

Rev. 7:9-17 answers us, 144,000 are the represent of redeemed nations of the world-'multitude'. Number of '144,000' do not mean it is so specific or exactly number. But it is a symbol.

Same with 1260 days, 1290 days, 'time, times, and dividing of a time,' etc... all of these are figurative meanings.

Interesting, I read and study Daniel chapter 7,8, and 11 about '1260', '2300', 'time, times, and dividing'. These might be speaking of the coming Messiah to end the daily sacrifice. As these were fulfilled by Calvary about 490 years later.

Pretribbers emphasis on Matt. 24:15, that they saying it must be refer to Daniel 9:27, because of Christ's mentioned, 'Daniel' of Matt. 24:15.

Partial preterists, and full preterists saying of Matt. 24:15 is refer with Daniel 9:27, both are already fulfilled by Calvary included 70 A.D.

Many amills are partial preterists. They believe Matt. 24:15-21 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. I disagree with them. I believe Matt. 24:15-21 is yet to occur is a future event.

I should be aware of amills might not agree with me. I believe great tribulation is a future event, it shall be last for only around 3 1/2 years.

I have a good reason why do I believe there will be about 3 1/2 years of great tribulation period.

Firstly, Jesus Christ came to earth for the ministry and calvary. I find the scriptures telling me, Christ was doing his ministry for over 3 years by follow the feat of passover three times in John 2:13; 6:4; and 13:1. So, tehrefore, Christ's ministry must be 3 1/2 years. Secondly, Jesus Christ was angelic beings, only spirit, not have a literal body during Old Testament period. When Christ came to earth, He became man in flesh. He revealed to the Jews that He is their Messiah. He done his ministry for 3 1.2 years. Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah.

Right now, Satan is spirit as 'angel of light'. He does not have a body. I believe one day, Satan shall become or transformed into a man as flesh. He will copy Christ's way to deceived the world for 42 months. To showing the world that He is their God or Saviour, shall cause the woirld to worshipping him.

Conclusion. There is no proof find anywhere in the Bible telling us there will be SEVEN year of tribulation period. Again, I telling you the book of Revelation was written of retelling the events. All of these are all toeard to the second coming.

Do these mean there shall be SEVEN comings???

No. These showing us, there are many details telling us about the coming of Christ, all of these telling us the same day and event.

I urge you to read and study book of Revelation repeat and repeat till you will get understand it better. Take your time. I have been reading throughout Revelation many times. Still I am learning throughout my life till I die or Christ comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib in another venue: //Till in year 1830, a Great Britian teenager
girl -15 years old, claimed, she had a vision of two comings
or two raptures - pretrib rapture before tribulation
gathering of the saints. Then, later posttrib rapture
of the saints at the end of the tribulation.//

This is a fabrication of post-Tribber Dave MacPherson.
Most of the post-trib doctrine has been created since
I became a Christian in 1952. It was news to me, not history.

Consider this data from:
http://www.according2prophecy.org/macphers.html

//Since the early 1970's, Dave MacPherson has aggressively attacked the pretribulation rapture by attributing its origin to Margaret Macdonald, whom MacPherson considers to be occult influenced. He claims J.N. Darby derived the pretribulation rapture from her and this was done secretly, lest the true origin of the rapture be discovered. MacPherson develops this idea in his books The Incredible Cover-Up and The Great Rapture Hoax. It has been successfully demolished in works by R. A. Huebner, Thomas Ice, and Gerald Stanton,1 to name a few.//

 

DeafPosttrib: //Does 1 Thess. 1:10 saying 'wrath' is so
called, 'seven year of tribulation period'?//

Does the term fit any some other time period better?
Does the term fit your wreched condition today?


Rev 14:10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is powred out without mixture into the cup of his indignation,
and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone,
in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

I think the undiluted wrath of God poured out in the
Great Tribulation (last 3½-years) is shown in Rev 14:10
is the wrath of which 1 Thess 1:10 speaks.

 

UZThD: "I do agree that major tenets must cohere."

Amen, Brother UZThD -- Preach it!

UZThD: "But probably I would not agree that holding to pretrib is essential if one holds to the deity of Christ or some other major doctrines. IF that Is THAT your opinion, then state your evidence."

It is not my opinion.

 

JohnV on another venue:
"We should preach what we know. We do not know
the details of the second coming."

These are the elements of the 'second coming':
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event

Frequently the 'second coming' is also used
only to designate the '3. Second Advent of Jesus event'.

Thus frequetnly 'second coming' has two seperate
unique sets of meanings which is the source of confusion.

--------------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: &lt;-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues &lt;-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection &lt;done happened
2. Tribulation time &lt;-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event &lt;done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom &lt;done happened
5. new heaven & new earth &lt;-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!

-------------------------------------------------

Expanded pretrib pre-mill timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation

20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!

----------------------------
This time-line is a work in process, friendly
suggested enhansements are encouraged.

 

The seals are fulfilled in small extents as time goes on. It's not necessarily a particular time frame that is being emphasized here, but rather the revelation of issues— symbolized by the breaking of the seals. (Unlike the trumpets and bowls which are one after the other events.) The plural nature of the fulfillment of the seals is further illustrated by Jesus' reiteration of the first seal in Matthew 24, v.23-24. Deceptions were starting right as the apostles were writing, and later wars, etc. and they'll all continue up until the ultimate fulfilment to come. Even then, it all occurs in graduating stages of deceptions, wars, famine & pestilences, then greater deception, bigger wars, more massive famines ad pestilences, etc.

In the 6th bowl, the Euphrates now dried up, showing it is not the same as the 6th trumpet, even though it is a sort of parallel. Where under the trumpet it was the it was just the armies at the river that were released marking the beginning of the attacks, now under the bowl, the rival armies, previously kept at bay, now cross over into the Beast's territory and toward Armageddon, in this full blown attempt at conquest.

The time frame we were up to was "the end" all along. Revelation often steps back in time to cover the histories of the prophetic figures and bring them back up to the end time.

That is a separate group. They are contrasted with the 144,000, who are clearly identified as such. They are "innumerable", "from every tribe and kindred and tongue". He SEES one group sealed, and then afterwards sees this other group.

http://members.aol.com/etb700/revelation.html

 

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Unfortunately Bro. Bob - that may be easy,
but it conflicts with the subject scripture
of this Topic: 2 Thess. 2:1-4.

It also does not take into account the
very nature of God:

----------------------------
\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8

2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 15 Mar 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

[ August 26, 2005, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]