2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Contrast the direct application of the points above to the points explicitly made in the prophecy of Daniel 9 with the following alternative.

All Agree that the 490 year timeline is THE great Messianic timeline prophecy in the OT.

All Agree Daniel nine contains two timelines – Jeremiah’s 70 years in Dan 9:2 and Daniel’s 490 years (70 weeks) starting in vs 24.

All Agree The 70 year timeline remains in tact and holds up This means that GIVEN the start year AND the timeline – the end year is also known

1. Yet the 490 year prophecy is to be broken up by inserting gaps of unknown lengths of time so that the end year can not be known EVEN though the start year is known. This is an abuse to a timeline not done with any other timeline in scripture – and so it is without exegetical support. We should ignore the fact that there are no instances in all of scripture of a time span prophecy - having gaps inserted, just go ahead and insert the gap as the theory requires without looking for exegetical precedence.

2. Although this is the great Messianic timeline prophecy of scripture – ALL messianic events listed in chapter 9 are to be excluded from the timeline to satisfy the need to make this prophecy all about the end time antichrist. NO Messianic event listed in the chapter is allowed IN the 490 year timeline!

3. Although the text speaks of the coming of the Messiah and then of his death in the week that follows the 69th week (70th week) we are to ignore that and put the 70th week of 7 years of time at the end of the age.

4. Although the text of Daniel 9 speaks of rebuilding the city of Jerusalem and then later about its destruction – we are to pretend that the city destroyed is NOT the city rebuilt. I.E the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is to be ignored entirely – not IN the 490 years and not even an event mentioned OUTSIDE the 490 years!

5. Although the text says an existing covenant is Strengthened for the entire 7 years of the last prophetic week - we ignore that and pretend as though the text said a NEW covenant IS MADE at the start of the 7 years and then BROKEN in the middle of the 7 years – not lasting 7 years. We edit and reword such that the start of this 7 years now says 'and he will make a covenant at the start of the 7 years but will then break his word after 3.5 years".

6. Find fulfillment of this alternate view in the NT - NOT by actually using the references to "covenant" and placing and end to "Sacrifices" or to "the people of the Prince" - just make things up in 2Thess2 and Rev 13 out of whole cloth to be reworked back into Daniel 9.

7. In vs 26 we have two actors – A – THE MESSIAH and B-The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come. The “HE” of vs 27 applies to the “prince” in the PEOPLE of the prince – ignoring the fact that the PRINCE who is to come in vs 26 does nothing in vs 26. Skipping the primary subject of vs 26 (The MESSIAH) we are to make the “HE” of vs 27 refer only to the antichrist.

===============================================================

But here is another question for our dispensationalist brethren

- why object to Dan 9 holding it's integrity for BOTH time spans?

What do you lose by simply staying consistent with the text as I have shown above?

You already believe that Messiah the PRINCE (as Daniel 9 states ) came at the end of the 69th week (483 years) AND that this was the first advent of Christ - the ministry of the Messiah as promised in scripture.

You already believe that He died in that 7 year span following the start of Christ's ministry and that Daniel identifies that with events AFTER the 69th week.

You already believe that all the sacrifices ended at the cross - exactly 3 and 1/2 years after the start of Christ' ministry AND that He is the promised PRINCE of Isaiah 9:6 AND of Daniel's own prediction regarding "Messiah the Prince".

You already admit that AFTER the 69 weeks IN that next 7 year time period - the Messiah was "cut off" - crucified.

You already believe that God quit using the Hebrew nation church as His form of "Royal Priesthood" in that 7 year period?

So what do you lose?

The tribulation?
Christ predicts the tribulation period in Matt 24 without corrupting the time span of Daniel 9.

The rapture?
We already have the rapture predicted in 1Thess 4 without corrupting either time spane of Daniel 9.

So what is there to lose by staying with sound exegetical consistent use of BOTH time spans in Daniel 9?

Why the reluctance here?

The beauty of sticking with the consistent exegetical view that retains the integrity of BOTH time spans in Daniel 9 - is that not ONLY is it much easier to show from scripture - but ALSO we have no "open door" for "gap theories". There is no basis for injecting a gap into the timeline of Gen 1 based on the complete abandon with which some choose to inject gaps into one of the time spans of Daniel 9.

 

By contrast to the "shatter and scatter" approach taken to Dan 9 so that the "antichrist" may be the dominating focus on that great messianic prophecy -- notice how "Christ centric" each of the predictions and fulfillments are as we KEEP the timeline in tact!!

That alone should be incentive not to abuse the timeline with the "shatter and scatter" methods needed for an anti-christ focused interpretation of this - the greatest MEssianic timeine prophecy in scripture!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hummm, that means the Messiah
commits an abomination?

Dan 9:27 (KJV1611 Edition):
And hee shall confirme the couenant with
many for one weeke: and in the midst of
the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease, and for the
ouerspreading of abominations hee shall
make it desolate, euen vntill the
consummation, & that determined,
shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

 

All Agree that the 490 year timeline is THE great Messianic timeline prophecy in the OT.

 

And "yet" some are so focused on "antichrist" that they would take this most famous of all Messianic timeline prophecies and gut it JUST when it specifically deals WITH CHRIST!

How sad.

In Christ,

Bob

 

marking

 

Brother Bob,
That is good stuff. Do you have anything in print regarding this subject?

Furthermore, are you premellenial?

Thanks for your time
Bill

 

Bill -


Good to meet you on the board. Welcome brother.

I am premillennial -- post-trib rapture.

I don't have anything in print other than what I have posted here. However I will send a note.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What a waste of band width, out of all that mess you only have one verse on the Rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually there is no Scripture relevant to a pretrib rapture!

 

It would be helpful if you would explain what you mean by an essential doctrine.

 

Isn't this post rather hard to ignore?

OldRegular: "Actually there is no Scripture relevant to a pretrib rapture! "

Oh, no Ed, your page 1 post isn't hard to
ignore at all. JUST DO IT!

 

It would be helpful if you would explain what you mean by an essential doctrine. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, God has other
things to do with my life than chase rabbits
with you. I was quite clear, it is up to you
to figure it out.

Here are the essential doctrines:

Rom 10:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
That if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus, and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saued.

The rest of the doctrines may be critical,
but they are NOT essential.

 

I'm working on a theory:

conservative SBC - pretrib premill
moderate SBC - post-trib premill
liberal SBC - post-trib a-mill


Come, Now is the Time to Worship
(Brian Doerksen, 1988):

One day every tongue
will confess You are God
One day every knee will bow.
Still the greatest treasure remains
For those who gladly choose you now.

 

PRECISION - 4. (Math), the degree to which the
correctness of a quanity is expressed

Example: A recent poll shows 82% of AMerican adults
believe there is a God +/- 3%

The 3% represents the precision of the 82%. This indicates
the real answer is between 79% and 85%.

'Precise moment" - a short (minute or less) measurable
portion of time (such as '1.3 minutes')

'a duration of time' - a middle sized
portiion of time such as a week or month

So, when i was asked about Rev. 9:15:
//Is the above a precise moment or a duration of time?//

Ed said: "Neither. The statemetn means that God
prepared them for the exact time that God wanted these
events to happen.

I'm still upset about something that happened to me some 36
years ago in 1978. I witnessed the death of a person.
In the court, before the judge, the defense lawyer turned
the Judge's uncertainty about what time word mean
into doubt about my testimong. This Judge's uncertanity
determined the sentence of the criminal.

ProphecyNut is doing the same thing.
He is using his miqunderstanding of time words to create doubt
in the blessed hope we have of a pretribualtion
rapture/resurrection.

There is no way that the 4 angels will spend 1 year, 1 month,
1 day, and 1 hour +/- 4 minutes to slay
exactly 33.3333333s% of the population.
(i.e. these figures are NOT very precise but are indicatve
of something else)

'Prophetic year - the meaning of a year in prophecy.
The fact a particular scripture is prophecy or not must be
determined from the context of the prophecy in the Bible as
directed by the Holy Spirit. Such a determination is a subject
of debate, which debate should be forthright and uplifting and
not depend upon cleaver 'debate techniques].

A prophetic year is the appropriate time
A prophetic month is the appropriate time
A prophetic day is the appropriate time
A prophetic hour is the appropriate time

In prophecy emphasis is given to certian facts by repeating
ideas. The emphaiss here is that God has prepared these
avenging angels for HIS moment, time, period, etc.
NOT for ours.

 

Yep, that is what
i was listening to when i composed some of these
'arguments'

I did teach my Sunday School Class about
Daniel 9-12 (Mostly about the 70th week
of Daniel). I told about those who think
that the 70th week of Daniel is a Messianic
prophecy, but caveated it with I DON'T BELIVE
THIS ARGUMENT. Daniel's 70th week
and the Abomination of Desolation is coming
to our future: 3½-years (42 months; 1260
days; time, times, and half-a-time) after
the pretribulaltion rapture/resurrection.

Jesus does NOT commit abominations, sorry,
no proof text - Jesus DOES NOT COMMIT
ABOMINATIONS.

 

My goodness, Brother Edwards, do you expect people to read all of that? Looks like you need a publisher, my dear brother!

 

Matthew 12:34-37 (KJV1611 Edition):
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being euil,
speake good things? For out of the abundance of the heart
the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart, bringeth
foorth good things: and an euill man out of the euill
treasure, bringeth foorth euill things.
36 But I say vnto you, That euery idle word that men
shall speake, they shall giue accompt thereof in the day
of Iudgement.
37 For by thy wordes thou shalt bee iustified, and by
thy words thou shalt be condemned.

I have 31 untyped posts penned out

BTW, In my schema of the end times, Jesus does commit
any abominations

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

4R. end of the Gentile Age (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period (Revelation 19)
5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 13:36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil [one]; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD; and the reapers are angels. 40 AS THEREFORE THE TARES ARE GATHERED UP AND BURNED WITH FIRE; SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD. 41 THE SON OF MAN SHALL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS, AND THEY SHALL GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT CAUSE STUMBLING, AND THEM THAT DO INIQUITY, 42 AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear. ... 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and they sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away. 49 SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD: THE ANGELS SHALL COME FORTH, AND SEVER THE WICKED FROM AMONG THE RIGHTEOUS, 50 AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.

(ASV) Matthew 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD? ... 15 WHEN THEREFORE YE SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, WHICH WAS SPOKEN OF THROUGH DANIEL THE PROPHET, STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE (let him that readeth understand ... 21 for THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HATH NOT BEEN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD UNTIL NOW, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. 22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe [it] not. ... 26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe [it] not. 27 For AS THE LIGHTNING COMETH forth from the east, and IS SEEN even unto the west; so shall be THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN. 28 Wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN IN HEAVEN: and then shall ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And HE SHALL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ... 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; SO SHALL BE THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN. 40 Then shall two man be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: 41 two women [shall be] grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh. 43 ... if the master of the house had known in what watch THE THIEF WAS COMING, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house TO BE BROKEN THROUGH. 44 Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not THE SON OF MAN COMETH. 45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? 46 Blessed is THAT SERVANT, WHOM HIS LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND SO DOING. 47 Verily I say unto you, that HE WILL SET HIM OVER ALL THAT HE HATH. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth; 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; 50 THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT SHALL COME IN A DAY WHEN HE EXPECTETH NOT, AND IN AN HOUR WHEN HE KNOWETH NOT, 51 AND SHALL CUT HIM ASUNDER, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.


Jim:

The end of the world (age) is when the coming of the Lord occurs. He will send His angels, and (1) they will gather His elect at the sounding of a trumpet, and (2) they will cast the wicked into a furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Both will happen at the coming of the Lord at the end of the world (age).

When the Lord comes, He will find those who are His doing what they should do, and He will give them authority over all that He has, but He will cut asunder those who are not doing what they should do, who will be taken by surprise by His coming, who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth at the end of the world (age).

According to Jesus, His coming is something that will be “seen.” It will take the wicked, who are not looking for Him to come, by surprise; they will “see” Him coming and mourn. Those who are looking for Him to come, whom Jesus warns not to be fooled by rumors that He will have secretly come and will be here or there, will likewise “see” Him coming, just as lightning is “seen” in the sky.

You appear to separate Matthew 24:31 from Matthew 24:30 as two different things, placing 24:31 before 24:30, when there is nothing in the text to indicate that you should do this. I would say that what you are doing here meets the definition of forcing the text to fit what you prefer to believe.


Ed:

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride (1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride (Rev 19:6-14)


The Bible:

(ASV) 2 Corinthians 5:6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, WHILST WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY, WE ARE ABSENT FROM THE LORD 7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight); 8 we are of good courage, I say, and are WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE AT HOME WITH THE LORD. 9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, WHETHER AT HOME OR ABSENT, to be well-pleasing unto him.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you: 12 and THE LORD MAKE YOU TO INCREASE AND ABOUND IN LOVE one toward another, and toward all men, even as we also [do] toward you; 13 TO THE END HE MAY ESTABLISH YOUR HEARTS UNBLAMEABLE in holiness before our God and Father, AT THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, CONCERNING THEM THAT FALL ASLEEP; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so THEM ALSO THAT ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE THAT ARE ALIVE, THAT ARE LEFT UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST; 17 THEN WE THAT ARE ALIVE, THAT ARE LEFT, SHALL TOGETHER WITH THEM BE CAUGHT UP IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Jim:

If the dead in Christ are present with Christ in heaven, and if they will be present with Him in the clouds of the earth at His coming, then logic dictates that they will come with Him from heaven to the clouds of earth to receive their resurrection bodies, just as Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:14: "the ones who were made to sleep through the Lord God will move with Him." If those believers who remain alive until the coming of the Lord then receive their resurrection bodies as well, being caught up and gathered together with those who had been dead to meet the Lord in the air as He returns to earth, and if all believers, both those who had been dead and those who had remained alive until His coming, then remain with their Lord as He completes His return to earth, from the clouds of the earth to the surface of the earth, then this will agree with Paul’s reference to the coming of the Lord with all His saints. It will also agree with Revelation 19:7-15.


The Bible:

(ASV) Acts 28:14 ... and so we came to Rome. 15 And FROM THENCE (FROM ROME) THE BRETHREN, when they heard of us, CAME TO MEET US (EIV APANTHSIN HMIN – TO/FOR A MEETING WITH US) AS FAR AS THE MARKET OF APPIUS AND THE THREE TAVERNS; whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. 16 And when WE ENTERED INTO ROME ...

(ASV) 1 Thessalonians 4:17 then WE THAT ARE ALIVE, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR (EIV APANTHSIN TOU KURIOU EIV AERA – TO/FOR A MEETING OF THE LORD IN/INTO THE AIR): and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Jim:

In Acts 28:14-16, the believers at Rome go to the market of Appius and the Three Taverns “for a meeting” (eiV apanthsin) with Paul’s group, from which point they accompany them back to Rome, their point of origin.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, those believers who remain alive until the coming of the Lord go from the surface of the earth to the clouds of the earth “for a meeting” (eiV apanthsin) of the Lord in the air, from which point they accompany Him back to the surface of the earth, their point of origin.


Jim

[ August 30, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: 1jim ]

 

In the parable of the tares the evil are collected first,
burnt, and discarded; the good second.

In the parable of the net "gathered the good
into vessels, but the bad they cast away" the good was collected first then the bad to be cast away.

The common theme of the parables is that the good
and bad will be seperated and dealt with seperately.
One should NOT determine the order from parables.