2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

BobRyan: //I just don't see two resurrections being called "The first resurrection".//

That is because you add to:
Revelation 20:5b (KJV1611 Edition)

"This is the first resurrection."

and make it say:

This is the first AND ONLY resurrection.

Some feel better if they make the two
resurrections '1a' and '1b':

1a: the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
of the gentile age saints

1b: the post-tribulation rapture/resurreciton
of the Jewish Tribulation saints

BTW, both raptures/resurections take place
in the same day (a 7-year-day).

Also BTW, there is nothing about the definition
of 'first' that means 'one', 'only one', or
'first and only'.

 

"This is THE FIRST" is all I really need it to say.

And then I note that "THE FIRST" resurrection is what marks the start of THE 1000 years with the end being marked by the 2nd resurrection and teh lake of fire.

(And of course I don't need to say "THE FIRST AND ONLY 1000 years between the two resurrection". I don't need to say The first and ONLY lake of fire at the end of the 1000 years because it is already obvious.

So much so that those who NEED to stick in ANOTHER 1000 years between the TWO resurrections in Rev 20 would be eisegeting. JUST as those who need to stick in TWO RESURRECTION events into the FIRST RESURRECTION must eisegete to do it)

In any case - I notice you left Matt 24.

What is up with that?

Once you place the rapture in 24:31 it sppears you are stuck.

How do you get out of that?

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Ed,


Ed:

I believe 'SIGN of THY COMING' and 'SIGN of THE END of the world' to be TWO variant sets of events.


Jim (previous message, dated 08/22/05, 11:42am, on page 2 of this thread):

Matthew:

(WH) Matthew 24:3 kaqhmenou de autou epi tou orouV twn elaiwn proshlqon autw oi maqhtai kat idian legonteV, eipe hmin pote tauta estai, kai ti TO SHMEION THV shV parousiaV KAI sunteleiaV tou aiwnoV.

24:3 And He sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him and alone, saying, Tell us when these things will be and what THE SIGN OF THE of yours coming AND end of the age.


Jim (this message):

Again, one might argue Sharp’s rule here. If the disciples were asking about two different signs of two different events, one might expect Matthew to express it this way:

Or at the very least, one might expect him to express it this way:

Instead, he expresses it this way:

Here, Matthew uses not only the one articular noun “the sign (to shmeion) instead of two but also only the one article “of the” (thV) for both of the nouns “coming” (parousiaV) and “end” (sunteleiaV) instead of giving each noun its own article. This suggests that the disciples’ question itself regarded only one sign, not two, of two things that were either very closely associated or even the same thing: “the sign of the ... coming and end ...,” as opposed to “the sign of ... the coming and the sign of the end” or “the sign of .. the coming and of the end.”


Jim

 

To be fair, I should mention that as I pointed out in my quoted messaged dated 08/22/05, 11:42am, Sharp's rule applies without any exceptions only when each noun in the construction is a singular noun referring to a person. When each noun either is plural instead of singular or refers to a thing instead of a person, one starts to see exceptions to the rule. So my application of Sharp's rule to Matthew 24:3 is not absolutely certain to be valid. However, Matthew's use of the single article in this verse in reference to "the ... coming and end" does increase the likelihood of the two at the very lease being so closely associated that they are expressed as a single thing having one article.

Jim

 

(ASV) Matthew 13:30 ... in the time of the harvest I will say to THE REAPERS, GATHER up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but GATHER the wheat into my barn. ... 39 ... the harvest is THE END OF THE WORLD; and THE REAPERS are ANGELS. 40 As therefore the tares are GATHERED up and burned with fire; so shall it be in THE END OF THE WORLD. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his ANGELS, and they shall GATHER out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear. ... 47 ... the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and GATHERED of every kind: 48 ... and they sat down, and GATHERED the good into vessels, but the bad they cast away. 49 So shall it be in THE END OF THE WORLD: the ANGELS shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. ... 24:3 ... the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what [shall be] the sign of THY COMING (single article) and [ ] END OF THE WORLD? ... 29 ... AFTER THE TRIBULATION ... 30 ... they shall see THE SON OF MAN COMING on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And HE SHALL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER together his elect ... 25:31 But when THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME in his glory, and all THE ANGELS WITH HIM, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be GATHERED (harvested/resurrected) all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (at His coming), Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world (flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God ... we shall all be changed – 1 Corinthians 15:50-51) ... 41 Then (1000 years later according to Revelation 20) shall he say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART FROM ME, ye cursed, INTO THE ETERNAL FIRE which is prepared for the devil and his angels (if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire – Revelation 20:21).

Throughout the passages quoted above, it is the angels who do the gathering, and the gathering (the harvest) is consistent with resurrection, and the Lord sends the angels to do the gathering when He comes. First, the angels gather together His elect to inherit the kingdom when He comes, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom but must be changed. Then, 1000 years later according to Revelation 20, the angels gather the wicked to burn them, for those who are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. All of this occurs at "the end of the world," which begins with the coming of the Lord, which occurs "after the tribulation," and which includes both resurrections, which occur 1000 years apart according to Revelation 20.


Jim

[ September 05, 2005, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: 1jim ]

 

BobyRyan: "In any case - I notice you left Matt 24.

What is up with that?"

I already explained that. Unfortunately i don't
remember if it was here or elsewhere.

If you notice the subject is "2 Thess 2:1-4".
I was using Matthe 24 because it explains the same
two sets of events. I will also use Revelation
becasue it has the rapture (by type) in
Revelation 4:1 and the Second Coming event
in Revelation 19. I even though i'd posted this
writing of mine:

-------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.

 

RobRyan: //"This is THE FIRST" is all I really need it to say.//

I accept your concession of the debate about 'first'.
You don't know the first think about first.

I went to college, but first i went to the 12th grade.
I went to the 12th grade, but first I wnen to the 11th grade.
I went to the 11th grade, but first I wnen to the 10th grade.
I went to the 10th grade, but first I wnen to the 9th grade.
I went to the 9th grade, but first I wnen to the 8th grade.
I went to the 8th grade, but first I wnen to the 7th grade.
I went to the 7th grade, but first I wnen to the 6th grade.
I went to the 6th grade, but first I wnen to the 5th grade.
I went to the 5th grade, but first I wnen to the 4th grade.
I went to the 4th grade, but first I wnen to the 3rd grade.
I went to the 3rd grade, but first I wnen to the 2ed grade.
I went to the 2ed grade, but first I wnen to the 1st grade.

'First' and 'one' mean different things:
'First' is for ordinality; 'one' is for cardinality.
'First' can be plural; 'one' is always singular.

 

Ed,

Oh come on. You keep on twisting Christ's lecture of Matthew chapter 24.

Let you know, there was no chapter and verse in the Bible during Early Church in the first century thru third or fourth Century, I cannot remember what year, chapters and verses were added unto Bible.

The point is, Christ does not saying there are two events of his coming in Matthew 24. He focus on the events of the signs toward his coming at the end of the age.

You keep on separate verse 31 of 'pretrib' rapture from verse 29-30 which is speak of Christ's coming after tribulation. That is against hermenuetic rule - intepreting in conetextually. Also, word, 'and', does not always mean apart or separate event, but it means to be continue in the same topic. For example - Matt. 28:19 word, 'and' two times speak of trinity of God with baptized, does it means there are three God?. This verse shows, 'and' between two places or persons, that these are go together in the same topic.

You always keeping use 2 Thess. 2:1; and Titus 2:13 of 'and' into two events of 'pretrib', and 'posttrib' comings. You cannot prove them in your own logical. These do not saying it would be apart into either 3 1/2 or 7 years of two events.

Matt. 24:29-31 always go together into process of Christ's lecture, you cannot switch verse 31 as backward 7 years earlier prior verse 29 of Christ's lecture.

Most pretribbers are aware of Matt. 24:29-31 is speak of Christ's coming after the tribulation, because of contextually. You are the only one pretribber, who saying Matt. 24:31 is 'pretrib' rapture. Most pretribbers do not agree with you.

I know many pretribbers are wrestling or resisting with Matthew chapter 24 clearly saying Christ shall come again after tribulation because of verse 29 says so.

I ask you and pretribbers, why not you tear Matthew chapter 24 out of the Bible?

You have to accept what Christ actual saying it. Be patience with trials, tribulations, and persecutions, because Christ already faced them. We have to follow his example.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

That is what most premies say.

But i say different:

DeafPosttrib: //Let you know, there was no chapter and verse in the Bible during Early Church in the first century thru third or fourth Century, I cannot remember what year, chapters and verses were added unto Bible.//

Maybe it was the 13th century (1201-1200)?

Anyway, that is not important.
The original Greek manuscripts
did not contain the chapter and verse
numbers but they did contailn
the 'KAI's. Each 'Kai' ('and' frquently in
English) needs to be understood what it means:

The uses of 'and' in English and 'Kai' in Greek.

1. connect two equal sets
(two sets with an equal list of members
but two various desicription)

2. connect two unequal sets that do not overlap
(two sets with different lists of members
and different descriptions)

3. connect two unequal but similiar sets
(two sets with overlapping lits of members
and different description)

4. connect a set and it's subset
(a subset of a set is another set which
has members all of which are included in
the original set - the descriptors are
differenet)

5. the polysyndeton: used to denote
an hyerarchal outline

I see no reason to think that my answers are
'evil' and your answers are 'good'.

At least i do not fear to deal with the questions
nor the answers as many are want to do

 

prophecynut,

Aren't the Disciples of Christ, the members of the body of Christ as Church?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

How about John 14:6 - 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life(excuse me, I didn't look in KJV and memorize the exactly grammar).?

How about "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in ONE." ?

And more verses mentioned of 'and'.........

In Christ
Rve, 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

Let's discuss on Matt. 24:29-31.

You saying verse 31 is a pretrib rapture.

Ok.

Let's read verse 29-31 together:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: andTHEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. and he shall send his angels with a sound sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

See how many words 'and' in the context of verse 29-31? Nine times.

Ok, do nine times of 'and' saying there will be 9 events or different times like as 9 years or 9 days?

Notice, it says, "...and THEn" appear two times in this context. Does it means there are two events or two different times? No. It tells us, there are the process or continue what will be happen at Christ's coming, while the grammar or sentence is continue explaining.

You saying verse 31 is pretrib rapture. That mean you click the controler of DVD plays, 'backward' of verse 31 back seven years earlier, you broken Christ's lecture, He was not finish lecture his coming in the context. Use your common sense, no excuse for you to read verse 29-31. You KNOWS English so very well, you're about 63 years old. Also, you KNOWS the grammatical rule, as you read the context.

The passage of Matt. 24:29-31 gives the clear picture what will be happen at Christ's coming in the process as 'forward', not 'backward'.

No way for you to prove verse 31 telling us that the rapture will be before tribulation. Because Christ does not saying 'BEFORE' tribulaiton in this context. You know better than that. You have to accept what Christ actuals saying it. Agree with His lecture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

You decided to post a verse-by-verse walk-through of Matt 24 and then ended by saying that Matt 24:31 is the gathering that is the rapture.

I pointed out that this is after the tribulation - to which you suggested that maybe there is another rapture BEFORE the tribulation mentioned in Matt 24.

I ask where in MAtt 24 you see the rapture before the tribulation - and you seem to lose interest in Matt 24.

Are you admitting that Matt 24 does not mention a pre-trib rapture?

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is the resurrection mentioned in REv 20 but no rapter mentioned in REv 4.

In 2Cor 11 Paul says he was taken to the 3rd heaven in vision -- is that the pre-trib rapture of the entire church happening 2000 years ago?

Did you find a pre-trib rapture in MAtt 24?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Yep that is a good one! But you already agreed that 24:31-44 is NOT "pre-trib".

Yep that is the tribulation - but then AFTER THAT tribulation comes vs 29-31 "gathering" which you admit is the rapture.

So still no pretrib rapture in MAtt 24?

AGreed. But no pretrib rapture. Just the "gathering" of vs 31 - right?

agreed!

The saints are taken "to heaven". John 14:1-3.

And of course Matt 24 ends its story BEFORE the millennium ends so -- (5. new heaven & new earth)

To which we also seem to agree.

In Christ,

Bob

 

There is the resurrection mentioned in REv 20 but no rapter mentioned in REv 4.
</font>[/QUOTE]Obviously you are NOT
familiar with my use of 'type'.
'Type' means 'like' 'as', a metaphor.
Of course a 'type' is never mentioned.

The Rapture will be LIKE when John was called
into heaven in Revelation 4:1.

 

I SAW the gathering in Matt 24:31 - - explicit.

I SAW the 2nd coming in Matt 24 -- very clearly.

I SAW the FIRST resurrection in REv 20 at the 2nd coming. Explicitly mentioned.

But WHERE did you see John say the church was "caught up in the air meet the Lord" in Rev 4??

Did you also find that in 2Cor 12 when Paul ws taken in vision to the 3rd heaven?

CAn we simply "imagine" that to be the rapture of the entire church taking place 2000 years before our time?


1. Tribulation time - Rev 14:7-19:10
2. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
3. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
4. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

v.3 - falling away

rapture/resurrection said to be AFTER that falling away!

v.1 - gathering together unto him said to be AFTER the falling away.

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

In Christ,

Bob

 

DeafPosttrib: "Ok, do nine times of 'and' saying there will be 9 events or different times like as 9 years or 9 days?"

You mock what i say.
It is ugly to do that.

I repeat what i said last:

Each 'Kai' ('and' frquently in
English) needs to be understood what it means:

The uses of 'and' in English and 'Kai' in Greek.

1. connect two equal sets
(two sets with an equal list of members
but two various desicription)

2. connect two unequal sets that do not overlap
(two sets with different lists of members
and different descriptions)

3. connect two unequal but similiar sets
(two sets with overlapping lits of members
and different description)

4. connect a set and it's subset
(a subset of a set is another set which
has members all of which are included in
the original set - the descriptors are
differenet)

5. the polysyndeton: used to denote
an hyerarchal outline

Do you agree we are required of God to
correctly understand the scripture?

Do you agree that these are the five
possible meanings of the Greek 'kai'
(actually there are others, i just mentioned
the main ones).

I will go through and show you which 'and' is
which. You are competent in God to do the same
for yourself. But you shouldn't think more
of the way you do it than the way i do it

First, you ignore the context which in
every widening measure is:
1. The Mount Olivet Discource - Matthew 24-25
2. The Gospel According to Matthew
3. The New Testament
4. The Holy Bible.
No scripture can be correctly understood
without it's context.
My Preacher said: "the three keys to understanding
a scripture: Context, context, contest!"

The key context for Matthew 24:29-31 is
Matthew 24:3 - the questions the disciples
asked of Jesus. They provide the major outline
for the rest of Matthew 24.

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is Matthew 24:29-31 with the Microsoft
dot Greek 'kai', that is English 'and' usually
but here also 'imediately' and 'and then'.

Part of the answer to 'Signs of Your coming'
continues:
2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,

---here is a list (type 5 connectors)of six things
---things that happen (the seventh comes
--- before the first 'and'.
and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power
---type one connector connecting 'power' with 'great glory'
and great glory.

2.What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44:


andhe shall send his angels with a sound sound of a trumpet,
--- this is a type 1 connector of different sets of events
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


BTW, all the tribes shall morn when Jesus returns
in power and glory. When Jesus comes to get
us that belong to Him we WILL NOT be morning.
Thus there is a great divide between verse 30
(right after the tribulation period)
and verse 31 (some other time)

BTW we note that nowhere in Matthew 24:29-31
does it mention how neat velcro is.
I can still use velcro to hold my shoes
on my feet.

 

Ed,

Ok, let read Christ's lecture again without verse:


"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


This is the only ONE continue same passage talking about Christ's coming. You cannot find 7 years apart in this passage. You just make up or added unto Christ's lecture, not what Christ actual saying it.

You know that!

Matt. 24:32-51 is talking about be watch and be ready, not know when Christ comes.

Matt. 24:23-31 talk about look for the sign of Christ's coming, do not believe them saying that, 'look Messiah is there or anywhere'. We know where the true Messiah is, from above. We shall looking up in the air where Christ shall appears.


Let's review on Matthew 24.

A. Matthew 24:1-2 = After Christ rebuked Pharisees in the buildings of the templ with His disciples. They went out of the buildings. And they shew him of them. Christ told them, these shall be destroyed, shall not be one stone left(fulfilled in 70 A.D.)

B. Matthew 24:3 = Disciples were shocked, and curious asked Christ, want to know what will be happened at the end of the age and His coming.

C. Matthew 24:4-14 = Christ told them, we shall see the signs of the world show us that His coming draw near. Right now, these are happening in our present age.

D. Matthew 24:15-22 = Christ warns them, there will be great tribulation in Judea('today's Israel') where Jews and Christians are dwelling there, shall face great persecution, telling them(future final generation which dwell in Judea) to flee away from homes, stay hide in the wilderness, do not return back to their home. Christ warns them, there will be horrible bloodshed of persecution. Thousands or millions of Jews and Christians around Judea shall be killed. He told them, do not come back, stay hide out there.

E. Matthew 24:23-31 = Christ talks about do not let any deceive us by saying, 'Look there Messiah...' do not believe them. Christ talks about the sign of His coming.

F. Matthew 24:32-51 = talk about be watch and prepared for His coming.

Very simple and plain.

There is no pretrib gathering mentioned in Matthew chapter 24. Our gathering shall be after tribulation find in Matt. 24:29-31.

Reading Matthew chapter 24 is NOT difficult for us to understand. Again, you have to accept what Christ actual saying it. Believe Him. Please do not twisting in your own intepreting what Christ's voice actual saying. Obey what Christ saying it. Why cannot you accept what Christ actual saying it? I guess propbably, you seems do not like what Christ actual saying it, or, I guess the truth seems offend your feeling.

Whilst myself was a pretribber. One day they showed me of Matt. 24:29-31. That passage shocked me, and I already determined follow what Christ actual saying it, and caused me left pretrib camp, became posttrib camp, because of what Christ saying so. I follow His word, not men's words(Colossians 2:8).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!