2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Hi Ed,


Ed:

BTW, all the tribes shall morn when Jesus returns in power and glory. When Jesus comes to get us that belong to Him we WILL NOT be morning. Thus there is a great divide between verse 30 (right after the tribulation period) and verse 31 (some other time).


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(ASV) Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees: touching the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. 7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees; and the assembly was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess both.

(ASV) Acts 26:6 And now I stand [here] to be judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers; 7 unto which [promise] our twelve tribes, earnestly serving [God] night and day, hope to attain. And concerning this hope I am accused by the Jews, O king! 8 Why is it judged incredible with you, if God doth raise the dead?

(ASV) Revelation 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood [men] of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

(ASV) Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, [every one] whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.


Jim:

“All the tribes” does not mean every person. Paul says that all twelve tribes hope to attain to the resurrection, but this doesn’t include the Sadducees. Likewise, Jesus says that all the tribes of the earth will mourn His coming, but this doesn’t include those who are purchased with His blood out of every tribe.


Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 5:24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, AND THEN come and offer thy gift.

(ASV) Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; AND THEN shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(ASV) Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 AND THEN will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(ASV) Matthew 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the sons of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, AND THEN will they fast.

(ASV) Matthew 12:29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong [man,] and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong [man]? AND THEN he will spoil his house.

(ASV) Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; AND THEN shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.

(ASV) Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. 8 But all these things are the beginning of travail. 9 THEN shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake. 10 AND THEN shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.

(ASV) Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; AND THEN shall the end come.

(ASV) Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(ASV) Mark 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, AND THEN will they fast in that day.

(ASV) Mark 3:27 But no one can enter into the house of the strong [man], and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong [man]; AND THEN he will spoil his house.

(ASV) Mark 13:19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. 20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days. 21 AND THEN if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ; or, Lo, there; believe [it] not: 22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.

(ASV) Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. 26 AND THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 AND THEN shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(ASV) Luke 6:42 Or how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me cast out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, AND THEN shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

(ASV) Luke 14:9 and he that bade thee and him shall come and say to thee, Give this man place; AND THEN thou shalt begin with shame to take the lowest place.

(ASV) Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; 26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. 27 AND THEN shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

(ASV) Acts 17:13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was proclaimed of Paul at Beroea also, they came thither likewise, stirring up and troubling the multitudes. 14 AND THEN immediately the brethren sent forth Paul to go as far as to the sea: and Silas and Timothy abode there still.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 4:5 Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the counsels of the hearts; AND THEN shall each man have his praise from God.

(ASV) Galatians 6:4 But let each man prove his own work, AND THEN shall he have his glorying in regard of himself alone, and not of his neighbor.

(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only [there is] one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 8 AND THEN shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;

(ASV) Hebrews 7:2 to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of all (being first, by interpretation, King of righteousness, AND THEN also King of Salem, which is King of peace;

(ASV) Hebrews 7:27 who needeth not daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins, AND THEN for the [sins] of the people: for this he did once for all, when he offered up himself.

(ASV) James 4:14 whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, AND THEN vanisheth away.


Jim:

The above quoted passages are all of the New Testament examples in which the phrase “and then” appears. Can you show me in which of these examples you think that that which is expressed in the text that is introduced by the phrase “and then” precedes that which is expressed in the text that immediately precedes this phrase? And can you explain why you think that the language indicates this?


Jim

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

Give us scriptures identifying the "elect" in Mt. 24 as Christians.


Jim:

For one thing, it would not be unlikely that non-Christians would be deceived by false christs. So when Jesus says that false christs will perform signs by which, if possible, even the elect would be deceived, He is expressing the unlikelihood of the elect being deceived by false christs, which suggests that these ones who are least likely to be deceived by false christs are Christians. In Revelation, the only ones being deceived are those who are not written in the book of life.

For another thing, the people in question are identified as “HIS elect,” and the only ones who are “His” are Christians. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:23, those who are “His” will be resurrected at “His coming,” which is consistent with what Jesus says in Matthew 24:30-31.


Jim

 

Hi Ed,


Jim (previous message);

And can you explain why you think that the language indicates this?


Jim (this message):

Additionally, can you explain why you think that the language even allows this, much less indicates it?


Jim

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

... NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE ARE GENTILES IN CHRIST CALLED THE ELECT, ONLY ISRAELITES ARE GOD'S ELECT.


Jim:

The Bible says that believers in Jesus Christ are the elect regardless of whether they are Gentile or Jewish in the flesh:

(ASV) Romans 8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, [even] to THEM THAT ARE CALLED according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and WHOM HE FOREORDAINED, them HE ALSO CALLED: and WHOM HE CALLED, them HE ALSO JUSTIFIED: and WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, them HE ALSO GLORIFIED. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God [is] for US, who [is] against US? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for US all, how shall he not also with him freely give US all things? 33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth; 34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for US. ... 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon VESSELS OF MERCY, which he AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY, 24 [even] US, WHOM HE ALSO CALLED, NOT FROM THE JEWS ONLY, BUT ALSO FROM THE GENTILES?

(ASV) Colossians 3:5 Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry; 6 for which things' sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience: 7 wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things; 8 but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth: 9 lie not one to another; seeing that YE (the Gentile believers at Colosse, concerning whom Paul says in verse 2:13, “the uncircumcision of your flesh”) HAVE PUT OFF THE OLD MAN WITH HIS DOINGS, 10 AND HAVE PUT ON THE NEW MAN, THAT IS BEING RENEWED UNTO KNOWLEDGE AFTER THE IMAGE OF HIM THAT CREATED HIM: 11 WHERE THERE CANNOT BE GREEK AND JEW, CIRCUMCISION AND UNCIRCUMCISION, BARBARIAN, SCYTHIAN, BONDMAN, FREEMAN; BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL. 12 Put on therefore, AS GOD'S ELECT, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering; 13 forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any man have a complaint against any; even as the Lord forgave you, so also do ye: 14 and above all these things [put on] love, which is the bond of perfectness.

(ASV) Galatians 2:3 But NOT EVEN TITUS WHO WAS WITH ME, BEING A GREEK, WAS COMPELLED TO BE CIRCUMCISED ...

(ASV) Titus 1:1 PAUL, A SERVANT OF GOD, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE FAITH OF GOD'S ELECT, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; 3 but in his own seasons manifested his word in the message, wherewith I was intrusted according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4 TO TITUS, MY TRUE CHILD AFTER A COMMON FAITH: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.


prophecynut:

1 COR. 15:23 DOES NOT SAY THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST ARE THE ELECT.


Jim:

1 Corinthians 15:23 and 15:52 say that those who will be resurrected (made alive) at the sounding of the last trumpet at His coming are those who belong to Him:

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then (afterward) THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S, AT HIS COMING (oi tou cristou en th parousia autou). ... 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:31 says that the “elect” who will be gathered together at the sounding of a trumpet at the coming of the Son of man will be “His,” that is, they will belong to Him:

(ASV) Matthew 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see THE SON OF MAN COMING on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of A TRUMPET, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Israelites as a people will not be made alive (resurrected) at His coming; they are not “Christ’s.” It is only believers in Jesus Christ, whether Gentile or Jewish in the flesh, who will be made alive (resurrected) as His coming; they are “Christ’s,” that is, they are “HIS elect.”


Jim

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

Do you have any other scriptures besides Mt. 24:31 having the Church gathered from the four winds, from the four corners of the earth?


Jim:

First of all, I’ve already shown that the Bible says that the Church is “God’s elect,” and that the Church is “Christ’s,” that is, that it is “His.” Thus, “His elect” has to be the Church. I’ve already shown this.


Matthew:

(ASV) Matthew 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is? 14 And they said, Some [say] John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ. 21 FROM THAT TIME BEGAN JESUS TO SHOW UNTO HIS DISCIPLES, THAT HE MUST GO UNTO JERUSALEM, AND SUFFER MANY THINGS OF THE ELDERS AND CHIEF PRIESTS AND SCRIBES, AND BE KILLED, AND THE THIRD DAY BE RAISED UP.


John:

(ASV) John 6:35 Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, that YE HAVE SEEN ME, AND YET BELIEVE NOT. 37 ALL THAT WHICH THE FATHER GIVETH ME (to be His) SHALL COME UNTO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that OF ALL THAT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME (to be His) I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, BUT SHOULD RAISE IT UP AT THE LAST DAY. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that EVERY ONE THAT BEHOLDETH THE SON, AND BELIEVETH ON HIM, SHOULD HAVE ETERNAL LIFE; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP at the last day. 41 THE JEWS THEREFORE MURMURED CONCERNING HIM, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? HOW DOTH HE NOW SAY, I AM COME DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN? 43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME (to be His), EXCEPT THE FATHER THAT SENT ME DRAW HIM: AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP IN THE LAST DAY.

(ASV) John 10:24 THE JEWS therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? IF THOU ART THE CHRIST, TELL US PLAINLY. 25 Jesus answered them, I TOLD YOU, AND YE BELIEVE NOT: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 26 But YE BELIEVE NOT, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP. 27 MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM, AND THEY FOLLOW ME: 28 AND I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, AND NNE SHALL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND.


Jim:

You show me where the Bible says that Israel as a nation and Israelites as a people are HIS (Christ’s) sheep, that is, HIS (Christ’s) elect, the ones who are given to Him and drawn to Him by the Father. According to the Bible, most Israelites do not fall into this category. Those who fall into this category are those who comprise the Church.

As I said before, the elect in Matthew 24 are those who are least likely to be deceived, as they are not in darkness. Only the members of the Church fall into this category. Israel as a nation and Israelites as a people are in darkness, having eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. They are not “HIS (Christ’s) elect.” In fact, He is the Cornerstone of the Church (Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11, Romans 9:30-33, Ephesians 2:19-20 and 1 Peter 2:4-10), whom Israel as a nation and Israelites as a people have rejected. Those who have rejected Christ are not “HIS elect.”

The verb “episunagw” (to gather together [to one place], 1996) and its associated noun “episunagwgh” (a gathering together [to one place], 1997) are used in association with the coming of the Lord in only three places in the Bible: Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1. In Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, the verb form is used to describe Christ’s angels or Christ “gathering together HIS ELECT” at the coming of the Lord / the Son of man. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1, the noun form is used in reference to “OUR gathering together TO HIM” at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. From these three verses, it appears that the referent of “HIS ELECT” and the referent of “OUR” are the same people, namely, the Church.


Jim

 

Mark 13:27 does not limited for Israel only, also, gathered from all nations of the world & all saints from above - heaven. It says: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the FOUR winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

All saints throughout all ages already died, are now in the heaven. Both Jews and Gentiles who believed in Jesus Christ are now in the heaven. When Christ shall come again, He shall send his angels to gathers all saints from all nations, and from the heaven.

You asked me about the elect.

Pretribs saying 'elect' is Israel(Jews).

During Old Testament time, Israel was God's elect. There is not a single verse anywhere in the Old Testament saying that the elect is for Jews only. There was few Gentiles who were God's elect during O.T.

During Old Testament time, Gentiles were strangers and separated from the commonwealth of Israel. BUT now they are no longer stranger, and now belong to the commonwealth of Israel by through Calvary - Ephesians 2:12-22.

Now, Gentiles are God's elect. 1 Peter 1:2 says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Calvary is for everyone of the wolrd, Christ died for all sinners either Jew or Gentile. Anyone who believeth in Christ, are God's elect.

Elect means chosen. In Ephesians 1:4-5 telling us, that God chosen us in Christ before the creation of the world. God already know that we shall be saved before we born.

Matt. 24:29-31 telling us, when Christ shall come, He shall send his angels to gathering all saints of the world, and from heaven to meet Christ in the air same with 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

Very simple and plain.

'Elect' of Matt. 24:31 is not what in Christ's mind that the elect are for Jews only. Christ never use word, 'Jew' anywhere in context of Matthew 24. He often said, 'you', 'ye'. Obivously, He was speaking to the followers/believers- us.

Christ commands us, that we ought always be watch and ready for His coming. Obivously, Matthew 24 apply to us as believers both Jews and Gentiles.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Hi prophecynut,


prophecynut:

Still waiting, what is the context of Mt. 24?


Jim:

The context of Matthew 24, which has to do with the end of the world, is Matthew 13, which has to do with the end of the world. In both passages, the Son of man sends His angels to gather “THE RIGHTEOUS / HIS ELECT” (not the nation of Israel or Israelites) and “THE WICKED” in the harvest. The harvest that occurs at the end of the world is the resurrection, not a geopolitical reorientation of Israelites to a specific location on earth. If it were the latter, to what location on earth would be the geopolitical reorientation of the wicked? The “gathering” by “the angels” is the resurrection, not a geopolitical reorientation. As Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, “our (His elect’s) gathering together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” is the onset of “the Day of the Lord” (verse 2:2) that is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 – 5:10.

(ASV) Matthew 13:37 ... He that soweth the good seed is THE SON OF MAN; 38 and the field is THE WORLD; and the good seed, these are THE SONS OF THE KINGDOM; and the tares are THE SONS OF THE EVIL [ONE]; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is THE DEVIL: and the harvest is THE END OF THE WORLD; and the reapers are ANGELS. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END OF THE WORLD. 41 THE SON OF MAN shall SEND forth HIS ANGELS, and THEY SHALL GATHER out of HIS KINGDOM all things that cause stumbling, and THEM THAT DO INIQUITY, 42 and SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH. 43 Then shall THE RIGHTEOUS shine forth as the sun in THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. He that hath ears, let him hear. ... 47 ... THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and GATHERED of every kind ... 48 ... and they sat down, and GATHERED THE GOOD into vessels, but THE BAD THEY CAST AWAY. 49 So shall it be IN THE END OF THE WORLD: THE ANGELS shall come forth, and sever THE WICKED from among THE RIGHTEOUS, 50 and shall CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.

(ASV) Matthew 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what [shall be] the sign of THY COMING AND [ ] END OF THE WORLD? ... 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars ... but THE END IS NOT YET. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. ... 9 Then shall they deliver YOU up unto tribulation, and shall kill YOU: and YE SHALL BE HATED OF ALL THE NATIONS FOR MY NAME'S SAKE. ... 11 And many false prophets shall arise, and SHALL LEAD MANY ASTRAY. ... 13 But HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED. 14 And THIS GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE PREACHED IN THE WHOLE WORLD FOR A TESTIMONY UNTO ALL THE NATIONS; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME. 15 When therefore YE SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION ... standing in the holy place ... 21 ... THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, such AS HATH NOT BEEN from the beginning of the world until now, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE. 22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto YOU, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; BELIEVE [IT] NOT. 24 For there shall arise FALSE CHRISTS, and FALSE PROPHETS, and shall show great SIGNS AND WONDERS; so as TO LEAD ASTRAY, IF POSSIBLE, EVEN THE ELECT. ... 26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; BELIEVE [IT] NOT. 27 For AS THE LIGHTNING cometh forth from the east, and IS SEEN even unto the west; SO SHALL BE THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN. ... 29 But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And HE SHALL SEND forth HIS ANGELS with a great sound of A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ... 33 ... when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh ... 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch THE THIEF WAS COMING, he would have watched, and would not have suffered HIS HOUSE TO BE BROKEN THROUGH. 44 Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not THE SON OF MAN COMETH. 45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? 46 Blessed is THAT SERVANT, WHOM HIS LORD WHEN HE COMETH SHALL FIND SO DOING. 47 Verily I say unto you, that HE WILL SET HIM OVER ALL THAT HE HATH. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord tarrieth; 49 and shall begin to beat his fellow-servants, and shall eat and drink with the drunken; 50 THE LORD OF THAT SERVANT SHALL COME IN A DAY WHEN HE EXPECTETH NOT, AND IN AN HOUR WHEN HE KNOWETH NOT, 51 AND SHALL CUT HIM ASUNDER, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be THE WEEPING AND THE GNASHING OF TEETH.

Again, you show me where the Bible says that Israel as a nation and Israelites as a people are HIS (Christ’s) sheep, that is, HIS (Christ’s) elect, the ones who are given to Him and drawn to Him by the Father.


Jim

 

DeafPosttrib: "During Old Testament time, Gentiles were strangers and separated from the commonwealth of Israel. BUT now they are no longer stranger, and now belong to the commonwealth of Israel by through Calvary - Ephesians 2:12-22."

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!

Right now the Messanic Jews (those who beleive Jesus is the
Messiah) belong to the same group as the Christians.
Before Christ's resurrection, the Jew came to God in
a different way. After the pretribulation Rapture, when
there are no Church Age gentile age elect saints left
then God will deal with the national Jews in a new manner.

Be glad you are saved by confessing Jesus as Lord while
you believe that God raised Him from the dead.
In the Tribualtion period salvation of gentiles will be
by removal of the head. salvation of the Jew will be
when they acknowledge that Jesus is their Messiah.

 

Ed,

Where did you get the idea come from? Please scripture.

Bible does not teaching us, there will be another chnace for a person to repent or to be saved once AFTER Christ comes again.

Matt. 24:39-42 telling us, the lesson of the flood. Noah had been preaching to people, warn them about the flood. God gave them a plenty time of chance to repent of sins for 120 years. Once the flood came, it was too late for them to repent and enter into the Ark. Flood came and sudden took them away. SO. likewise shall be at Christ's coming, one person taken away, one left, is the picture of judgement(not rapture). Christ warns us, His coming shall be like as "thief in the night", it is NOT a 'rapture', it is judgment. For what? Taken a person away into everlasting punishment - lake of fire. If we do not watch and ready, we might be catch in the thief and be shocked being end up thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:1-13 shows us the picture of the ten virgins. Once the door closed, five foolish virgins run and knock the door, begging to enter into. It is too late for them. It is the picture of the gospel age will be FINISHED, time for the judgment day comes. There will be NO ANOTHER CHANCE for a person to repent once when after Christ appears with his angels, a person shall be taken away without watch, unprepared, without repentance, will be end up thrown into the lake of fire at Christ's coming!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Hi DeafPosttrib,


DeafPosttrib:

Elect means chosen. In Ephesians 1:4-5 telling us, that God chosen us in Christ before the creation of the world. God already know that we shall be saved before we born.


The Bible:

(ASV) Matthew 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (episunagw, 1996) his elect (eklektoV, 1588) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(ASV) Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose (eklegomai, 1586) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together (episunagwgh, 1997) unto him; 2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;


Jim:

Good point. Just as “episunagwgh” (gathering together) in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is the noun form of the verb “episunagw” (gather together) in Matthew 24:31, likewise “eklektoV” (elect, chosen) in Matthew 24:31 is the noun form of the verb “eklegomai” (choose, elect) in Ephesians 1:4.


DeafPosttrib:

Mark 13:27 does not limited for Israel only, also, gathered from all nations of the world & all saints from above - heaven. It says: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the FOUR winds, FROM THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH TO THE UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN." All saints throughout all ages already died, are now in the heaven. Both Jews and Gentiles who believed in Jesus Christ are now in the heaven. When Christ shall come again, He shall send his angels to gathers all saints from all nations, and from the heaven.


Jim:

Good point. Also, look at the description of the “called and chosen/elected and faithful” who are with Christ when He faces the antichrist at His coming in Revelation:

(ASV) Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns that thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet; but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour. 13 These have one mind, and they give their power and authority unto the beast. 14 These shall war against the Lamb, and THE LAMB SHALL OVERCOME THEM, FOR HE IS LORD OF LORDS, AND KING OF KINGS; AND THEY ... THAT ARE WITH HIM, CALLED (KLHTOV, 2822) AND CHOSEN/ELECTED (EKLEKTOV, 1588) AND FAITHFUL (PISTOV, 4103).

(ASV) Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude ... saying ... 7 ... the marriage of the Lamb is come, AND HIS WIFE HATH MADE HERSELF READY. 8 AND IT WAS GIVEN UNTO HER THAT SHE SHOULD ARRAY HERSELF IN FINE LINEN, BRIGHT [AND] PURE: FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb. ... 11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war. ... 14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN (THE CALLED AND CHOSEN/ELECTED AND FAITHFUL IN VERSE 17:14) FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE [AND] PURE. 15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. ... 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, AND AGAINST HIS ARMY (THE CALLED AND CHOSEN/ELECTED AND FAITHFUL IN VERSE 17:14). 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: 21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

This HEAVENLY army certainly looks to me like “HIS ELECT” who are “GATHERED TOGETHER ... FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER” to be with Him at His coming in Matthew 24:30-31:

(ASV) Matthew 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER (FROM THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH TO THE UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN – Mark 13:27).


Jim

 

Jim,

Well say!!

 

In Matthew 24, why does Jesus mention false prophets leading many astray twice (24:11 and 24:23-28) just before mentioning the end (24:14 and 24:29-31), unless 24:15-31 does not follow 24:6-14 but parallels it, the first thing of which we should take note not being the wars (24:6-7a) but the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (24:15), the wars (24:6-7a) and the famine (24:7b) and the earthquakes (24:7b) and the martyrdom (24:9-10), all of this (24:6-10) being unprecedented in scope as stated in 24:21-22, this (24:21-22) encompassing what is stated in 24:6-10, after which or even during which the leading astray by false prophets and false christs (24:11 and 24:23-28) occurs before and until the end (24:14 and 24:29-31)? The seven seals in Revelation 6 certainly seem to coincide in sequence with that which is described in Matthew 24:6-14: war (Matthew 24:6-7a and Revelation 6:4) and famine (Matthew 24:7b and Revelation 6:5-6) and martyrdom (Matthew 24:9-10 and Revelation 6:9-11) and the end (Matthew 24:14 / 24:29-31 and Revelation 6:12-16). Just wondering.

Jim

 

One complex Lawyer sentence whose TRUE
FALSE value cannot be determined

Here is many sentences that are easy to
check.
--------------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
---------------------------

 

Ed on comparative Eschatologies:
--------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!

 

Ed,

There is no difference of the sign between 'His coming' & 'end of the age'. Both will show us of the signs. Matt. 24:33-34 telling us, when we see the doors of the fig tree, as it is growing in the spring time, as the summer draw near. That means, we are seeing the signs show that His coming is getting closer. The end of the age will be occured WHEN Christ shall comes. Simple.

no sign? Oh come on. Cannot you see the signs are already happening right now- earthquakes, wars, nations against nations, famines, etc....??

We are already in tribulations now since early Church faced. I know what in your mind of verse 21 -'great tribulation' speak of. You believe it is a future event - seven year of "great tribulation". I believe 'great tribulation' is a future event yet to come. That will be occur when Satan shall be revealed and to persecute against Christians, many Christians shall be killed for refused to worship Satan.

End of the age and His coming will show us as the signs showing us that the end is coming closer. Both will be fulfilled at the same when Christ appears with his angels. Obivously, these will be fulfilled after the tribulation is the only one future coming of Christ, not two comings.

Does Matt. 24:31 saying rapture will be occur before tribulation?

Almost 3 days ago on Sept 7 12:44 am, I asked you:

You did not answer my quesiton. I am still waiting for you.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!