2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Oops, double post

 

BobRyan: //In fact as we both know - the term for "saint"
is found in BOTH the OT and NT.

Amen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it.

There are O.T. national Israeli elect church saints
and there are N.T Church Age mostly gentiles redeemed elect church saints.
In the Millinnial Age and after ages there will be one group
of elect church saints.

BobRyan: //I agree with you that the point against the dispensationalist error
is pretty strong in this case. //

Let me belabor the obvious. This is the Baptist Board.
There are lots of Baptists Lurking about. Baptist local churches
are each indepedent of the other (some join together for social causes,
missionary endeavers and to found new local churches. And just
for good sport each individual Baptist is and independent agent before
God. If there are 48 Million Baptists in the USofA and 80% of them
are Baptists then you will find 38 Million various dispensational
doctrines. Please, i beg of those who still Love Jesus -- don't argue
like an overpaid lawyer against the stock dispensational views.

Feel free to argue against the dispensational views presented here
(if you can find a good Bible arugment) - even if it is a non-Baptist
dispensational view. Thank you for your thoughtful consideration of
my request.

DeafPosttrib:

John, the Beloved, doesn't saying that he sees Church appears
up in the heaven from Revelation chapter 4 thru chapter 19.
Your logically is not enough.

So, if i add 2+2 and get 4 BUT YOU GET 5, then i'm using my own logic.
Sorry, such statements tend to suggest you think more highly of
yourself than you aught.

Meanwhile, John, the Beloved sees the largly Gentile Church Age
church in heaven: the 144,000 Messianic Jews are raptured before
the Tribualtion Period. The 144,000 MEssianic Jews are rewared at
the Bema Seat of the Messiah to special service for Jesus during
the Tribulation period. Part of the Church is mentioned in chapter 7,
the early verses.

Meanwhile, John, the Beloved sees a group IN HEAVEN that is the
raptured Church. (The escaped the Tribualtion by being yanked away
from the earth prior to the Tribualtion Period by the hand of God via
Messiah Jesus.

No, the largely gentile church age church is seen in Heaven
but not on the earth (BTW, the Tribulation Period is on Earth not in heaven).

John, the Beloved, does not say, from Revelation chapter 4 thru chapter 19,
anything about the mostly Gentile CHurch age redeemed
elect Church saints being on the earth.

BTW, I am getting condemned for being inaccurate when
i say 'church' and to lengthy when i say
'ostly Gentile CHurch age redeemed elect Church saints'
but i do not want people to confuse what i'm saying.
There is also 'Jewish Israeli elect Church saints'.
The two groups will become one in the literal Messianic Kingdom,
the Millinnial Kindom.

BTW, a word about the subject scripture.
The KJV"s 'caught up' in 1 Thess 4:18
is the KJV's 'falling away' in 2 Thess 2:3.
We are 'caught up' (raptured) into the air by Jesus
when He comes to get us before the Tribulation period.
We will 'fall away' from this old earth like a fig tree ripe with
fruit when our blessed Lord and Savior, Messiah Jesus comes to
get us at the end of the Gentile Age.

 

I vote for calling it: Dispensational Myths of the Second Coming

 

I will be there.

Bob

 

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

"WHY" can't the gate of hell prevail against the church??

1Jo 4:4 because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(Comforter, Holy Ghost)

The presents of the "Comforter" is greater than our "OPPRESSOR", Satan.

However, once "HE" is "taken out of the way", look at what happens. (rapture)

2Th 2:7 only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same "horn" (AC) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

The "Law and prophets" stopped when Jesus (Comforter, Holy Ghost, voice of Jesus) came, and once "HE" is taken out of the way, Israel will return back under the "LAW and PROPHET", (Moses/Elijah, Two witnesses) for the trib period.

"LEADERSHIP" by both "law and prophet" and "Comforter, Holy Ghost" do not function at the same time, in the same time frame.

This is why Israel is "blinded" until the "fulness of the Gentiles".

 

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

Mat 16:18 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter,
and vpon this rocke I will build my Church:
and the gates of hell shall not preuaile
against it.

The image here is an attack upon hell and
hell's gates shall not stand. If we attack
hell in the name of the Messiah (which name
is 'Jesus') - we shall win!

Amen,

\o/ Praise Jesus \o/

 

What happen to "Old Regular" and "deafpostrib", did they fall off the "flat earth"???

 

Who does the Bible call "saint"?

Who then are THE SAINTS in the texts above?

So then who are "THE SAINTS" in Daniel 7?

"THE SAINTS" mentioned in BOTH the OT and NT!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

Amen! Preach it!

I feel like I am weary out debate with Ed and Me4Him, and other pretribs. No excuse for them, they know better. Saint simple mean Christian. Every Christians include baptists understand the word, 'saint' simple mean Christian or believer. Use common sense.

Ephesians 2:12-22 tell us, Gentiles were separated from the commonwealth of Israel, and were strangers. But NOW they are unity with Jews become ONE BODY together by the cross.

When we read Rev. 13:7 saying that the Antichrist shall make war with the saints. I ask you, does John saying, saints are only "Jews"? Or, does John saying, saints are "Israel"? Silence. Use our common sense, we know this verse talks about Satan shall persecute against Christians.

Dispensationalism makes it looks complex, and deny the teaching of unity body of Christ. Most pretribbers are dispensationalists. Dispensationalism emphasis of its teaching there are distinction between Israel and the Church in two different programs. But, New Testament teaches us, Gentiles are now grafted in, join with believing Jews as both are unity together on the same tree. SO, all Israel shall be saved. Bible say nothing about anything there will be "special plan" for the future physical nation of Israel in the great tribulation, or millennial kingdom. Bible teaches us, that Calvary already reconciled both Gentiles and Jews unity together became one body of Christ. It is done 2,000 years ago. Now, Gentiles and Jews both are saints, who believe and follow Jesus Christ.

I undersrand very clear what the New Testament teaching us about the unity of the body of Christ, and what the purpose of Calvary is all about. New Testament does not teaching on the divided body of Christ. New Testament disagrees with dispensationalism, and that teaching is against the teaching of reconciled of Calvary of Ephesians chapter 2. I reject the teaching of Dispensationalism. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

Bible always teaching us, that we as Christians must go through much tribulation according John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:4-7, and more..because Christ suffered on the corss. So, therefore, we should follow His example - 1 Peter 2:21; & 4:12-16. We have to accept the fact and truth from the Bible that we have to suffer because of Christ's sake. There is no promise from the Bible that we shall escape from persecution and tribulation. Cannot you see church history already recorded telling us, thousands or millions of Christians already suffering by persecutions and tribulations. You have to accept the fact and truth from the Bible, what it telling us. We have to follow Christ's example of his suffering.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Good points all PostTrib!!

 

If we are all "in christ" (and I know we are) how then can some at the present be "enemies of the Gospel/Church" and still be "in christ"??

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

After two thousand years of rejecting Jesus, don't ya think "SOMETHING" will have to "CHANGE" before the Jews will accept Jesus???

 

In Romans 11 "ALL are not IN Christ" until they express faith.

The Jews in Romans 11 are only TAKEN OUT due to a lack of faith and those who remain only REMAIN IN by maintaining faith.

"Neither will God spare you" is the warning in Romans 11 showing EQUIVALENCE in the condition applied to both groups.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What about partial pretrib rapture? That means they were counted
worthy to escape -- but what does it say about us

 

Luke 21:28 is not talking about escape from persecutions, and tribulations, it talks about escape from judgment and wrath of God, IF we do not watch and pray, then we might face judgement and wrath of God.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

prophecynut,

How about Romans 8:19-23? Verse 23 tells us that we are earnest and looking forward for our body to be redemption.

Same with Titus 2:13 tells us, that we are looking forward for our blessed hope that would be at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption of our body is speak of changing into immortality according to 1 Cor. 15:51-54 will be at the rapture at Christ's coming.

Yes, Israel shall be delivery at Christ's coming. I am not talking about the delivery of the Jewish physical nation, I am talk about God's people-believers.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

prophecynut,

Whose were auditing Christ's lecture of Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21? Only Jews? Only Israel? Christ does not saying it. Christ was lecture to HIS disciples, disciples are Christ's followers well also believers. Christ told them, 'ye', you' about 19 times in Matthew chapter 24. Obivously, He lectures toward us, not just for his disciples only. He give us the instruction with warning, that we must be watch and be ready, because His coming shall be as thief in the night. If we do not watch and pray, we might be caught in thief for the judgement, same with Luke 21:28.

Matt 24, Mark 13, & Luke 21, all are very clear speak of the only one future coming at the end of the age. None of these giving us the hint of two comings. Christ mentioned thief in the night will be occured at once, not twice. Also, all of these are very clear teaching of posttribulational coming of Christ. Why not you tear Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 away out of the Bible? You have to accept what Christ saying, follow His word.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Jews at the present are "enemies of the Gospel", they don't believe in Jesus, But God said they are still "ELECT", SO,

How/when/why do they become "in Christ",(elect) that's the "question posed"???

"The "ROD/STAFF" are "COMFORT" to the Church.
Ps 23:4 thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

However the "ROD/STAFF" are "Great Tribulations" to Israel for rejecting Jesus.
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian,(AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

 

What about partial pretrib rapture? That means they were counted
worthy to escape -- but what does it say about us </font>[/QUOTE]Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

All ten virgins, were "virgins" (saved) but only five got to go, WHY, they let their "LIGHT" go out. (quench the spirit)

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (leave behind in the rapture to suffer the trib) that the spirit (souls) may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

Partial rapture?? YES, because God is an "impartial Judge". (no respector of persons)

If God will do it to the Jews, he'll do it to the Church. (equal Chastisement)