Seventh Day Adventist Question

I think Seventh Day Adventists have a pretty good handle on what the Gospel is all about. The Law point the sinner to Jesus and Jesus points the forgiven sinner back to the Law. Because the point of salvation and redemption is to "redeem from sin" and not to leave one wallowing in his past life of sin. The EVERLASTING GOSPEL message is that now is the time of JUDGMENT and you will not be able to stand in the Judgment if you have no respect for your Creator and His Government which involves His Law, His commandments. The main commandment is the Sabbath which reminds us to "worship the true God who created the heavens and the earth".


Revelation Chapter 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus .

 

Nice of you to admit that it is not simply "Christ entering Christ" -- finally!

Here THOSE who SERVE are the PRIESTS on EARTH who SERVE in the temple built as directed by Moses, that TEMPLE in which THEY serve is merely a COPY of the one IN HEAVEN.

As it turns out that was GOD saying that -- not me.

That was GE - NOT GOD!

The text does NOT say that MOSES WAS SHOWN the copy - the SHADOW -- rather it says that Moses MADE the copy - the SHADOW of heavenly things.

See how all the problems vanish when one accurately separates what GE SAID from what GOD said??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Seventh Day Adventists agree with these same ideas that John Wesley taught. I am hoping that all of you view Wesley as a "real" Christian who understood the Gospel message....

Wesley said:
"'I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.' . . . Without question, His meaning in this place is (consistently with all that goes before and follows after),--I am come to establish it in its fullness, in spite of all the glosses of men: I am come to place in a full and clear view whatsoever was dark or obscure therein: I am come to declare the true and full import of every part of it; to show the length and breadth, the entire extent, of every commandment contained therein, and the
height and depth, the inconceivable purity and spirituality of it in all its branches."

John Wesley declared that there was a perfect harmony between the law and the gospel "There is, therefore, the closest connection that can be conceived, between the law and the gospel. On the one hand, the law continually makes way for and points us to, the gospel; on the other, the gospel continually leads us to a more exact fulfilling of the law. The law, for instance, requires us to love God, to love our neighbor, to be meek, humble, or holy. We feel that we are not sufficient for these things; yea, that `with man this is impossible;' but we see a promise of God to give us that love, and to make us humble, meek, and holy; we lay hold of this gospel, of these glad tidings; it is done to us according to our faith; and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, 'through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

"In the highest rank of the enemies of the gospel of Christ," said John Wesley, "are they who openly and explicitly 'judge the law' itself, and 'speak evil of the law;' who teach men to break (to dissolve, to loose, to untie the obligation of) not one only, whether of the least or of the greatest, but all the commandments at a stroke." "The most surprising of all the circumstances that attend this strong delusion, is that they who are given up to it, really believe that they honor Christ by overthrowing his law, and that they are magnifying his office, while they are destroying his doctrine! Yea, they honor him just as Judas did, when he said, 'Hail, Master, and kissed him.' And he may as justly say to every one of them, 'Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?' It is no other than betraying him with a kiss, to talk of his blood, and take away his crown; to set light by any part of his law, under pretense of advancing his gospel. Nor indeed can anyone escape this charge, who preaches faith in any such a manner as either directly or indirectly tends to set aside any branch of obedience; who preaches Christ so as to disannul, or weaken in any wise, the least of the commandments of God."

While some Christians taught that "the preaching of the gospel answers all the ends of the law," Wesley replied: "This we utterly deny. It does not answer the very first end of the law, namely, the convincing men of sin, the awakening those who are still asleep on the brink of hell." The apostle Paul declares that "by the law is the knowledge of sin;" "and not until man is convicted of sin, will he truly feel his need of the atoning blood of Christ. . . . `They that be whole,' as our Lord himself observes, 'need not a physician, but they that are sick.' It is absurd, therefore, to offer a physician to them that are whole, or that at least imagine themselves so to be. You are first to convince them that they are sick; otherwise they will not thank you for your labor. It is equally absurd to offer Christ to them whose heart is whole, having never yet been broken."."--Wesley, sermon 25.

 

I think that too many Christians do not believe that Seventh Day Adventists understand the Gospel because they themselves dont understand the purpose of the Gospel.

When Jesus died for us on the cross and the Bible says that Christ is "the end of the law" they misunderstand totally, thinking that this means we no longer have to keep the law, because of Christ's death. They dont understand what something being "the end of" something really means, in biblical terms.

The End of the Law? Has the Law ended because of Christ dying on the cross? Some do not understand Biblical language.

To the believer what does Christ become? "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth." Rom. 10:4.

In what sense is the word end (Greek, telos) sometimes used in the Scriptures? Object, intention, or design? "Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord." James 5:11.

What was the object of the law? "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death." Rom. 7:10.

What is charity, or love? "Love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom. 13:10 (1 John 5:3).

Why did God send His Son to the world? "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom. 8:3, 4.

Then what is one enabled to do through Christ? "That the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom. 8:4

What further is the end, or object, of the law? "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart." 1 Tim. 1:5.

...the "end of" or the object of the Gospel, the object of Christ's death for us, was so that we would have our past sins erased and be given the opportunity and the power to be overcomers.


Claudia

 

Hi Claudia,

Thios topic is about an SAD queatsion - so you may bring up almost any subject. But I and Bob Ryan is currently discussing the 'heavenly' Sanctuary and 'the Investigative Judgement'. So I don't get your point actually.

About Wesley - God is His Judge, and that, as far as I am concerned - is his best comfort. But Wesley is no man without question marks above his name. His doctrine of justification and redemption to me is totally unacceptable. His quest after something better and greater than what the Holy Spirit gives in faith, is a chase after vainglory. And as a result his insistence on 'spiritual gifts' - the beginnings of 'charismatics' ('charismaticism', pentecostalism whatever!) in my opinion is telling God in his face His grace is not enough.
Nevertheless, have you posted these articles to make a point in connection with the IJ-isuue? Do I miss something?

 

SDA's hahahhahaaaaahaahhahahhahhahahahhaaaa, just judiaizers for the modern times.


"Sunday keeping is the mark of the beast", hahaha

"Ellen White was a prophet" hahahhahaaa

"Keep the commandments", of course the commandment says nothing about worshiping on the sabbath, but only resting and remembering, they of course added the worshipping part.

have fun they (SDA's) are good at dodging.

 

BR, September 24, 2005 06:17,
“... on earth ... there are those who offer ... who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.
Here THOSE who SERVE are the PRIESTS on EARTH who SERVE in the temple built as directed by Moses, that TEMPLE in which THEY serve is merely a COPY of the one IN HEAVEN.
As it turns out that was GOD saying that -- not me.”
GE:
The “Copy and shadow of the heavenly things”, “JUST AS”, “Moses was to erect the tabernacle”. It does not say the ‘copy and shadow of the heavenly SANCTUARY’. It says, “copy and shadow of” what was to be erected by Moses – “JUST AS”, “the tabernacle”, “on earth”. So “the tabernacle”, “on earth” became a “copy / shadow” or type of “heavenly things” that were still to come, even the priesthood of Christ. It did not exist then as Christ had not yet been incarnated or raised. Thus, “there (“on earth” were) those (priests) who offer(ed) ... who serve(d) a copy and shadow of the heavenly things” that showed forth Christ.
Here those who serve as priests are those on earth who serve in a temple built by Moses, but not “directed by Moses”, because it was built according to the ‘directions’ or ‘copy’ or ‘pattern’ shown Moses “on the mountain”. God, in other words, was the Director of the tabernacle that Moses had to erect – that temple in which earthly priests serve according to the COPY on the mountain God had shown Moses, and which itself, was “a copy and shadow of the heavenly things” not yet realised, but that typified Christ.

But hear Bob Ryan’s blasphemy – the blasphemy of Seventh Day Adventism –: “... that TEMPLE in which THEY serve is merely a COPY of the one IN HEAVEN. As it turns out that was GOD saying that -- not me.” As it turns out, you are lying, Bob Ryan, twisting God’s words. It was not God saying that – it was Bob Ryan saying it. That temple in which the earthly priests served was merely modelled on the pattern shown Moses on the mountain – the service and priesthood of which “showed forth / copied / patterned / typified”, “heavenly things” – the service and priesthood of which therefore showed forth future things to be realised in Christ Jesus, things therefore being called “heavenly things”.

 

Just really bad taste, and worse workmanship!

 

My last post above was of the SAME FORM and CONTENT as your previous one to it GE.

How can you condemn me for using YOUR format!!

I find that very odd.


In Christ,

Bob

 

GE - did you refute these scriptures yet?

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3369/5.html#000073

If so -- I missed it.

Did you refute each one of THESE scriptures pointing to the CURRENT High Priestly work of Christ yet?

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3369/5.html#000070

IF so -- I missed it.

Lets get you back to scripture and dealing specifically with these points raised.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Note the unanswered points (the many points in that case) unanswered here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3369/5.html#000070

"WE HAVE such a High Priest who HAS ENTERED" into heaven.

The points in there are myriad -- just read the link and respond to the points.

Lets carry the points forward.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Said Bob Ryan, Sept. 24,
“Actually QUOTING GOD would be "REMEMBER THE Sabbath day to keep it holy... FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE... THEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made IT HOLY" Ex 20:8-11.
If you believe that my statement above is NOT an accurate representation of GODS OWN STATEMENT in Exodus 20 - please point to something "substantive" to make your case that "it is just bob that thinks that way".

GE:
Here’s my case, that it is just Bob that thinks that way:
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... for in six days the Lord made... therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day AND made it holy", _IS NOT_, “Actually QUOTING GOD” or Ex 20:8-11. It is MIS-quoting God and Ex. 20:8-11. You know full well why it is the falsification of the Word of God, Bob Ryan! You have done this before, many times; and you have simply not paid attention to my showing it out to you.
In any case, this is not what we are now discussing; you only try to lead us off track. We are discussing the (no, your,) ‘Investigative Judgement’. So I’ll not go into the subject of the Law further.
But this Law does have bearing on the subject of God Who Rested – in Jesus Christ as always. That, was and is the atonement God fully realised through and in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. “God rested – THEREFORE!”. He only could, because “ALL the works of God”, had been “finished”, by “FINAL ATONEMENT” “WROUGHT” – accomplished through final victory over the ‘principalities’ of adversity and “ENMITY”!
You say, No, God did halve a job; He has not been fully successful; He better improve!

 

Here we see ME quoting GOD as HE says "FOR in SIX DAYS GOD MADE... THEREORE God BLESSED"

What is the THEREFORE - There For? Obviously it is to connect the CREATOR's explicit statement on CREATION to the Creator's ACT in making creation's MEMORIAL day.

Just stating the obvious so far

That is a good start

IS that because you don't agree with Peter that GOD is the one that is speaking in Exodus 20 or you do not agree with Moses that GOD is the one speaking in Exodus 20?

I am sorry you will have to point out that God DID NOT SAY that in Exodus 20!

You will have to SHOW that HIS connection with the "THEREFORE" is NOT in the text AS SHOWN


Still waiting...


You claim that ONLY I would dare to accept the text as it reads - and so only BOB would have that view and then to back it up you .. what??

And so ends nothing

And then came nothing


Why do you post like that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

If you 'quote' "God", quote Him - don't fabricate your own 'text'. I (previous post) pointed out you left out "God rested, therefore ..." - not the first time. You ignore it flat as though it exists not, so that you can make "made ... therefore". The truth is not the truth if not all the truth and nothing but the truth - if not, it's a lie.

 

Bob Ryan (Sept 16):
“John 20 states at Christ's resurrection "I have NOT YET ascended to the Father."”

GE:
No one tries to deny – at first and quick glance of your statement. But at closer look, again, your cunning becomes apparent. Again, you lie without blinking! John 20 does NOT state that, quote, “at”, Christ's resurrection, He declared, “I have NOT YET ascended to the Father.” Christ said that, at least fifteen hours after He “in the Sabbath’s fullness it being the very light of day towards the First Day of the week”, actually had risen from the dead. ‘At’ that moment in time and space – ‘at’ that hour of day in the unfolding of the plan of God’s atonement for and with lost sinners – “The High Priest of our Confession” Jesus Christ ascended His Throne of Majesty – Equal of and in Unity with the Heavenly God Almighty. Then, and there, He Acted, High Priest, and had made finished and perfect atonement and reconciliation and Peace and had become “King of Salem” – “Prince of Peace” – ‘Mediator’ and ‘Intercessor’, crowned with glory in eternal Victory!

What Jesus talked about according to John 20:17, He did not say “at” this moment or on this day of His rising and exaltation, and it would not happen before forty days after.

And so one could take your allegations one by one and portion by portion and show the fallacy of every bit of it – just on the single principle of God’s having “finished all His works on the Seventh Day”: “For thus God concerning the Seventh Day did speak” by Word of Act of, in, and through Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead.

As you said, “End of story.”
But you legalists can never find peace for you cannot accept the Peace God had accomplished in the Son. Atonement through Christ is not enough for you because it can do without human effort and emaciation.

 

First you admit that John 20:17 IS after the resurrection -- then you condemn me as a liar for pointing out that it is AFTER the resurrection that Christ said "I HAVE NOT YET ascended to the Father".

How can you say those things with a straight face?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I dont want to try to wade through all the posts on here but just from reading a little at the end posts... I cant understand why people seem to make up this idea about the Sabbath that it somehow means God rested from His work and thus the Sabbath means we should not worry about doing works.

Maybe I just misunderstand them, but it would be silly if it were the correct interpretation because why wouldnt it of applied in Old Testament times then? Most the same people claim the old testament was legalism but the new testament is all "Jesus and light and love and grace". So why in old testament times would God make the Sabbath as a symbol of us "resting from doing good works" ?

It doesnt make any sense... God gives ten COMMANDMENTS... laws to follow, rules and then in the middle of it all He puts the Sabbath and says "oh dont worry about doing works, just rest". Well that would be silly.

...besides that if you really study the new testament you will find that the term not doing your own works also applies to the idea of not continuing to do your own wicked works that you did in the past. Those are "your own works".

Its a shame, so many christians dont even know what a legalist is, they dont even know what a pharisee is. They need to go read what jesus actually said to the pharisees.

Jesus said your righteousness needs to EXCEED that of the pharisees, because the pharisees were merely OUTWARDLY holy but inwardly full of corruption and "dead mens bones". The problem was, they didnt really keep the law of God but were always trying to find a way around it while adding their own rules to it. Jesus said, you have heard thou shalt not kill but Im telling you, dont even be angry with your brother in your heart... and you have heard dont commit adultery but Im telling you dont even lust after a woman in your heart.

THAT is what a legalist is, someone who claims to keep the law but inwardly really isnt holy at all, because they have no love, no motive of love, obeying from the heart.

Unfortunately, today so many Christians have this entirely twisted around to claim that if you even try to keep God's commandments then you are being a legalist. its ridiculous.Its like claiming the new testament says all over the place to keep the commandments, but that God really doesnt mean it when He tells us to do that. Its stupid.


Claudia

 

Matthew 19:

16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18: He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19: Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


Heb:12:14: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord


Gal:2:17: But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.


Rom:3:31: Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Note who is grouped WITH the unbelieving (it isnt as many make it out to be that if you "just believe" then these sins do not apply to you and you'll be saved anyway):

Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

all liars will end up experiencing the second death... and who is a liar?


1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


1Jn:4:20: If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?


every one of the commandments is summed up in "love"... read Romans 13:8-10

8. ...he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The new testament clearly says over and over that if we do not love our brother then we do not have eternal life, and love is defined in keeping the ten commandment law.

This idea that all we have to do is "believe" is just a terrible deceptive farce and very unfortunate that so many christians have fallen for it.

 

BR:
Quoting Hb.9:11-12,
“But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

After His sacrifice and ascension -- Christ is High Priest according to this text – and is officiating with “His OWN blood”.
Hebrews 7 deals with the change in priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the ONE High Priest Jesus Christ.”


GE:
“After His sacrifice and ascension ...”
With these words Bob Ryan means “after” Jesus had been “taken up (into heaven) and a cloud received Him out of their sight”, Acts 1: 9, 11.
But he read but understood nothing of what he had read, Hebrews saying,
“when Christ appeared … He entered … through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption” – which is all summed up in one word of act of God Tri-Une: “When God raised Christ from the dead”!
This is no event “after” Jesus had been “taken up (into heaven) and a cloud received Him out of their sight”, yea, according to BR and the SDA’s, 1814 years “after”! This is the immediate, instantaneous, simultaneous, contained “appearance” of Christ, “when … He entered”. It is, His ‘entrance’ most glorious and triumphant, into “the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption”, and thus, “having obtained eternal” High Priestly status and office – thus having executed this High Priestly duty of “atonement made” in the event of His rising from death and grave – He being “brought again from the dead”, Hb.13:20, “through the blood of the everlasting covenant.”

What monstrous obfuscating is that doctrine which makes of no effect this clear Word of God, but divides Christ’s priesthood into a lesser and an improved – that makes Him begin office a minor, without authority to serve in the Most Holy, but only in ‘the Holy’ for nearly two thousand years, before he could ‘appear’ in the ‘Most Holy’ to at last begin – not finish yet – ‘final atonement’! For nothing – empty promise of God – that Jesus “as a high priest … through the greater and more perfect tabernacle … through the blood of the everlasting covenant … appeared …(and) entered the holy place once for all … never having obtained eternal redemption, not even having started making ‘final atonement’ yet! Notice how this vain dogma neatly sidesteps Christ’s resurrection and so makes it of no consequence in the whole “process” of atonement or redemption. It does not only make no mention of it; it carefully works its way around it, with full consciousness of it ignoring it, as if it played no part in God’s work of salvation.

I before have made a collection of the many ways the writer of Hebrews describes Jesus’ resurrection and wherein the most pertinent descriptions are Christ’s “entering” and “appearing”. Suppose these terms do not apply to the resurrection of Jesus, and completely destroyed is the writer’s whole argument, and the very foundation of it. Then he talks in the air, just air. So either the SDA error of an ‘Investigative Judgement’ is no more than thin (and smelling) air; or Luther perhaps was right this Book belongs not in the New Testament. No, therefore; it is this stinking doctrine that should be discarded!

So it is mere empty words of Bob Ryan to dare say,
“-- Christ is High Priest according to this text – and is officiating with “His OWN blood”. Hebrews 7 deals with the change in priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the ONE High Priest Jesus Christ”, but to maintain, “the change in priesthoods” occurred not in the event of the resurrection of Jesus once for all, but to deny “officiating with “His OWN blood”” is Christ in resurrection from the dead being ascended into heaven and into heavenly temple and into High Priestly office.

The Letter to the Hebrew Christians was meant to make this clear to them – and nothing else – that they believed in an atonement finished and perfected because they believed in Jesus who had risen from the dead. The point of it has nothing in common with, nor supports in the least the least of the SDA-horror of an ‘Investigative Judgement’.
God had investigated my sins and the sins of every redeemed, in Christ, and had found us guilty, and had paid for our sins fully, in Jesus, and through Him; and in Him had forgiven us because He had found us guiltless in the Son; and had raised us into eternal life in Him, and through Him, and for His sake, because He so loved the Son, He had given Him every one He came for and had given Himself for to save them – for whom He conquered and had acquired, having “wrought” their eternal salvation.
We are free who can or are allowed to believe this Good News; we may rejoice now in a work done and done well – God’s perfect work; His Act of Rest in the Son. We may now enter into the Rest of God – He had provided fullness of assurance. We may feast Sabbaths now because He had entered in!

We are back to where we have started: The SDA Church won’t believe Jesus rose from the dead “IN SABBATH’S-TIME” because they won’t believe God in raising Christ from the dead, entered in into His Rest.