Seventh Day Adventist Question

Said Bob Ryan,
Notice the contradictory facts IN the text of Hebrews that would deny the statement (of GE), “Jesus’ atonement ‘stopped’ – i.e., was perfected – in resurrection from the dead.”

#1. Hebrews 7–8 DOES say Christ STARTED His High Priestly work ONLY AFTER going to heaven.

#2. Hebrews 8 DOES say that Christ WAS NOT functioning in High Priestly roles while on earth. (See vs 4).

Easy to say, impossible to show.
“Hebrews 7–8” nowhere and no how says “Christ STARTED His High Priestly work ONLY AFTER going to heaven”. “Hebrews 8” nowhere and no how says “that Christ WAS NOT functioning in High Priestly roles while on earth (See vs 4)” – it’s all plainly the lying words of your own.

Hebrews 7–8 in fact says right the opposite of what you here maintain it says, and in many ways. In many ways it says right the opposite, in each way pinpointing Jesus’ resurrection as the occasion and time at which He not only ‘started’, but continued and perfected His High Priesthood which according to the order of Milchisedec is without beginning or end.
Jesus’ work of giving Himself the Sacrifice for sin, indicating the ‘start’ of His work in capacity of High Priest Officiating, and Jesus’ work of offering Himself the Perfected Propitiation for sin through resurrection from the dead, indicates the ‘ending’ of Jesus’ work in capacity of High Priest Officiating, ultimately before, “going to heaven”!

8:4, “For if he were on earth, He should not be a priest”, surely confirms just this, in that while He was on earth, He was a priest! The very truth He had been High Priest of God on earth, determined He would not stay on earth after he had done High Priestly work. Jesus completed “all the works of God on the Seventh Day” – Hb.4:4-5 – “all the works” only God, would be able to finish, and therefore High Priest only in the capacity of Divine Omnipotence, would accomplished. The qualification conditional and resultant – “without beginning” as well as “without end” – had been of High Priest before and after “all the works of God” in dying and rising and being exalted and having ascended into the heavens: “This Jesus … just as you see Him taken up into the heavens”. “For the Law (which is from everlasting to everlasting) maketh the Son High Priest, who consecrated High Priest for evermore”, since evermore. (7:28) Nowhere though, like as where “perfected” in High Priestly Office of sacrificing and offering up His life before God a propitiation for sins.
To think of Jesus Christ not being High Priest through all this – what blindness! What folly!

 

Quoting CladiaT,
"It makes no sense at all that you would act as if God makes the 10 commandments and then right in the middle of them, in the 4th commandment He tells us not to worry about even keeping them because He "did everything" for us already."

What shameless false accusation you make against me, ClaudiaT!
It only reveals you completely lack understanding of what is going on through this thread!
I think it would be better for you just to be an observer, you having been so totally incapable of contributing anything of worth to this discussion.

 

Bob Ryan,
No, let me rather erase what I have just written!

Asking me to come to reason, Bob Ryan? I give up. I don't need any more of this!

Cheers!

 

RESTING FROM YOUR OWN WORKS-- what does this mean?

Many Christians confuse the idea of "resting from works" as meaning that we ought not to worry about doing good works, but if they would do a little Bible study on this subject they might think otherwise. They mistakenly believe that the "Sabbath Rest" somehow means to stop trying to do good works... Fortunately, Seventh Day Adventists have "gone on to" a higher way of thinking and have stopped going to "Elementary School" so to speak.

Notice we are told to stop swirling around and dwelling around this elementary school thinking as Christians... we are to leave the "principles" of the doctrine of Christ and "go onto perfection" not keeping on trying to lay the foundation of repentence from dead works and faith toward God:

Heb:6:1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God

DEAD WORKS...

Heb:9:14: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Every sin we commit are "bad works" "evil works". Then we can also do good works in order to try to commend ourselves to God or to gain merit or to somehow appease God and try to work our way into heaven. All these are DEAD WORKS... evil works. You need to get on past all of that and begin to serve God by doing good works to glorify HIM. Live from now on FOR HIM. This is proof we are the sons and daughters of God... that we now live to glorify God and no longer live for ourselves.

Take a minute or two to read I John Chapter 3 about so-called "Christians" who want to live like Cain. We are no longer to live like Cain who did wicked works:

I John Chapter 3:

1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11: For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


Now if you want to go the route of saying we must "rest from our works"... lets take a look at that then...

Matt. 11:28-30 Jesus said:
"Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."

Well what kind of "rest" is He talking about? Is it sitting around doing nothing?


He said, All who labor and are heavy-laden may come unto Him.

The Scribes and rabbis, had merely many religious FORMALITIES, FORMS, RITUALS, they were constantly trying to act as if they must do some sort of "penance" to gain God's approval. And if you will read the Bible, you will find that Jesus did never say to anyone that they ought to STOP keeping the Law... no never. The problem was that the people did keep the Law at all, though they boasted of doing it. Jesus said "You have heard it said Thou shalt not kill, but I am telling you, dont even hate your brother. You have heard it said Thou halt not commit adultery but I am telling you dont even look at a woman to lust after her" then Jesus went on to say that we needed to be MORE RIGHTEOUS than the Pharisees. In other words we needed not dead works, but REAL GENUINE works done from love to God and to our neighbor.

And besides all of that, Publicans and sinners were seeking to find happiness in earthly worldly things ... things that could never satisfy the soul. He invited all to find rest in Him.

When Jesus called to find rest in Him He said, "TAKE MY YOKE UPON YOU, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

Learn of Jesus, learn to ACT as He does, Take His YOKE upon you... and in doing so, you will find rest.

If you are sinning, and/or if you are trying to do good works to merit salvation, either way, you are weary and heavy laden and will only be able to find rest in taking the YOKE of Christ upon you.

BJesus took our place. "The Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:6. He has borne the burden of our guilt. He will take the load of guilt from our weary shoulders. He will give us rest. He invites us to cast all our care upon Him.


He tells us just how His rest is to be found.

"Take My yoke upon you," Jesus says. The YOKE is an instrument of SERVICE. Cattle are yoked so that they can PERFORM LABOR, and the yoke is for the purpose of being able to labor effectually. We are to take upon us the yoke of Christ, that we may be co-workers with Him.

The yoke that binds to service is the law of God. It is the new covenant written in the heart, which binds the human worker to the will of God.We arent to be left to follow our own inclinations, to go just where our own will would lead us. We are to "learn of Me (Jesus) and learn to be meek and lowly, Christ said. Thats what it means to take His YOKE upon you. And Jesus said in doing so "My burden is EASY, and My burden is LIGHT". Because you become co-workers with God.

Therefore God confines us to His will. We become not slaves anymore to sin, not slaves anymore to dead works, evil works... but now we are servants of God. Jesus bore this yoke. He said, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. "I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me." John 6:38. And we are to learn of Him, learn of His meekness. Take HIS yoke upon us, and find REST. Not in idleness.


Jesus said seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and His promise is that all things needful to you for this life shall be added. No more worry about tomorrow, a light burden instead because you find rest in Him. By seeking the kingdom of God and His righteousness, this doesnt mean to sit around idle and claim to be a Christian, while still acting like the world.


You must have a knowledge of Christ. You must be delivered from all that is opposed to loyalty to God.

If you have perfect harmony with God, there will be perfect peace. Unless you do make this surrender, you cannot find peace.


The yoke is placed upon the oxen to aid them in drawing the heavy load, so as to lighten the burden. it is the same with the yoke of Christ. When our will is bound up in the will of God, we shall find life's burden light. And if we are walking in the way of God's commandments then we are walking in company with Christ, we are taking His yoke upon us, walking along with Him, and the heart is at rest.

When Moses prayed, "Show me now Thy way, that I may know Thee," the Lord answered him, "My presence shall go with thee, and I will give theeREST." And the prophets said, "Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the OLD PATHS, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find REST for your souls." Ex. 33:13, 14; Jer. 6:16. And He says, "O that thou hadst hearkened to My commandments! then had thy PEACE been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea." Isa. 48:18.


Claudia

 

When I say "come to reason" I am simply talking about this --

These clear textless quoteless exegetically devoid contradictions of Hebrews will never stand close review.

Proof:

Christ's work is again connected with the subject of sacrifices for sins - for the purpose of obtaining forgiveness as we see in vs 3 above. Christ is SHOWN to “NOW have” that ministry as our High priest for NOW He has taken His seat and NOW He is in the heavens a minister IN the TRUE tabernacle I heaven He has NOW obtained a more excellent ministry. But this is NOT a ministry He held on earth for “IF He were on EARTH He would NOT BE A PRIEST AT ALL”
This is the clear direct teaching of Hebrews. Impossible to miss.
--

So do you actually deal with this in your response GE? OR do you simply repeat your own contradiction of the text itself??

Here we see "Again" your direct contradiction posted again and again.

Bible says "On Earth Christ would NOT BE a priest AT ALL" --

GE Says in effect "OH YES HE WOULD and in fact He was a priest on earth! Trust me!"

It does not get any more direct!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here is a good example of GE's textless, quoteless proof-devoid "assertions" -- pontification that includes NO textual proofs at all.

GE said
#1. He was a priest (on earth!

The very truth He had been High Priest of God on earth, determined He would not stay on earth after he had done High Priestly work.

(no text about him being priest on earth given here)


Jesus completed “all the works of God on the Seventh Day” – Hb.4:4-5

(no text at all about Priesthood. No text at all about Christ NOT doing work IN HEAVEN NOW for us. In fact this is merely a partial SNIPPET quote of Heb 4 not even the vs it CLAIMS to have quoted - vs 4-5!!)

GE then pontificates - rationalizes - and "inserts" what he WISHES he had read in that partial SNIPPET quote of Heb 4 --


#– “all the works” only God, would be able to finish, and therefore High Priest only in the capacity of Divine Omnipotence, would accomplished. The qualification conditional and resultant

Such rambling can not possibly be imagined as either "exegesis" or instruction or proof. Ge "quotes HIMSELF" as his own PROOF!


GE then spins a SNIPPET of Heb 7 to get it to say that Christ WAS on earth as High priest WHERE IT SAYS that Melchezidek was in fact PRIEST --


– “without beginning” as well as “without end” – had been of High Priest before and after “all the works of God” in dying and rising and being exalted and having ascended into the


But that SNIPPET must be kept SMALL AND SPARSE to avoid the DETAILS in the text showing that it is only in that the King of Salem is NOT mentioned as having beginning or end that HE becomes a type of Christ.

No argument is made in Heb 7 AT ALL that Christ was HIGH PRIEST on EARTH. In fact the point is made that NOTHING is said about Judah holding to the PRIESTHOOD!!

 

Just as a side note,

The JUDGMENT MESSAGE is really a message about God investigating to see who really loves Him, who loves God so much that they live for a purpose, and that purpose is to GLORIFY GOD by their good works.


WHY did Jesus die for us? anyone know? HINT: Its all about GOD... not just about US: (read particularly verse 14)


What is the purpose of the grace of God??

Titus:2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Revelation 14:

6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and GIVE GLORY TO HIM; for THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (quoting from the Sabbath commandment- the 4th commandment)


How do we give glory to God? it tells us in verse 12:
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and GLORIFY YOUR FATHER which is in heaven.


PAY ATTENTION:
2Cor:5:15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


PAY ATTENTION AGAIN:
1Pt:2:24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Yes of course we are saved by the blood of Christ alone, but some are missing the entire point, the entire purpose.

 

Since GE seems to be asking if there might be a way to spin Heb 7 to make Christ and EARTLY High Priest -- lets look at the chapter "in detail".

Here the writer of Hebrews points out that the laws regarding sacrifices - officiated by earthly priests - AND the requirements for BEING a priest -- change as the priesthood changes.

NOW the sacrifice is the one in heaven - "Christ's blood" -- and is officiated by our High Priest - Christ. This is NOT a discussion of the 10 commandments and whether we really need to worry about taking God's name in vain.

NOT ONE sentence in Hebrews can be found contrasting the 10 commandments of God with some imaginary DUPLICATE set in the NT short one commandment - that of CHRIST the Creator's Holy Day. RATHER this is a contrast between SYSTEMS OF PRIESTHOOD.

The text points to the prophetic word spoken about the Messiah – and his mission of Atonement. A mission that would require both the “Atoning Sacrifice” of Lev 16 and also the High Priestly work of Lev 16 being done “NOW in HEAVEN for us” for NOW He has received that better ministry. –
Notice that the text explicitly references the LAW OF PHYSICAL requirement - explicitly - the issue of LINEAGE - Judah vs Levi. Impossible to miss with even the slightest smattering of exegesis - but sometimes buried in eisegesis if our pre-bias will not allow us to see the plain teaching in the text.

Some do try to eisegete the 10 commandments into the text of Hebrews 7 - but we see clearly that instead of speaking of a supposed change in our obligation to worship the One True God - or a change in our obligation to parents or to avoid stealing etc - Heb 7 is CLEARLY speaking of the sacrificial system and priesthood that administers those sacrifices.

Observe carefully - not one vs of Hebrews conrasts "the 10 commandments and Jesus Christ".

===================================================================
Hebrews 7 - CONTRASTING the TWO priesthood systems –

Christ’s ministry takes place only after His ascension when He is “Exalted ABOVE the heavens”
The contrast here is based in the qualifications for the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ.
A - humans die - but Christ does not.
B - Humans do not continue to serve the people as priests after their death so there must be MANY-- existed in greater numbers because they were
prevented by death from continuing,
C. Chosen NOT on the basis of Biblical law - but on the basis of "an indestructible Life" Vs 16
D. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
he remains a priest perpetually.
E. Christ is prepared to TAKE that Melchizedek priesthood only AFTER death - AFTER making his sacrifice.

Our High Priest HAS TAKEN His seat in heaven at the right hand of the Throne of Majesty – “in Heaven”

The immortal requirement for the Melchizedek priesthood is met by Christ - alone, so the humans were "greater in number" in their priesthood system.
This is a heavenly system – a heavenly priesthood – where Christ is now working for us.
IF He were ON EARTH He would not be a priest AT ALL Heb 8:4
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.

Here we see the FUNCTION of this new priesthood - so unique to Christ.
HE SAVES those who DRAW NEAR to God THROUGH HIM. (vs 25)
He ALWAYS LIVES to make INTERCESSION for them (vs 25)
He is the GUARANTEE of A BETTER COVENANT. (vs 22)

Again - His qualifications as CONTRASTED to the human qualifications under a human - earthly Aaronic system.

- Holy, Innocent, Undefiled, separated from SINNERs, EXALTED above the heavens.


27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

The CONTRAST again is between the LAW that ordained HUMAN priests - the sons of Aaron -
Humans were "weak, sinnders" who must offer sacrifices FOR THEIR OWN SINS as WELL as that of the people.

To prove that Christ was not establishing a parallel OR a rival priesthood system ON EARTH - after the cross, the writer of Hebrews makes this astounding statement

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Heb 8:
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;

This text says - for anyone with brains - that while He was on earth, He had been High Priest.

 

I would rather understand the little I do quote from Scripture, than quote the whole of Scripture not understanding one word of it!

In any case, you boast quoting so much Scripture, but just go count - nothing moer - word for word, post for post, argument for argument, who in fact utilises Scripture, most! You are unable even to observe this - what understand something from it!

 

Sorry, I guess I am short on brains here. I don't see any way at all the text you quote says that.

 

He had to have been High Priest in order to "offer up Himself". He HAD BEEN Higp Priest, "according to the order of Milchisedec - that is, without beginning; without end".
“Now once He put away sin by the sacrifice of HIMSELF.” Hb.9:26
“This He did (to offer up sacrifice for sins) once, when He offered up Himself … this is the sum, we have such an High Priest, set at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens!” Hb.7:27, 8:1
“Made higher than the heavens”, He had been, “High Priest”; only “such an High Priest, became us.” Hb.7:26

 

"if He were on earth, He would not be a priest" is a SUPPOSITION - of an IMPOSSIBILITY. It is a supposition based on the PRESUPPOSITION of FACT, which is, that Jesus HAD BEEN High Priest, and THEREFORE, could not REMAIN, on earth.

 

BR:
Here is a good example of GE's textless, quoteless, proof-devoid "assertions" -- pontification that includes NO textual proofs at all.
GE said, He was a priest on earth!

GE:
So Bob Ryan denies Christ was Priest on earth.
Christ said He came to save. That required He would be Priest – High Priest – in order to make sacrifice to atone through offering before the Throne of Grace His LIFE in dying and rising and being exalted.
Bob Ryan denies the whole purpose of Christ’s mission.


BR:
Here is a good example of GE's textless, quoteless, proof-devoid "assertions" -- pontification that includes NO textual proofs at all.
GE said, The very truth He had been High Priest of God on earth, determined He would not stay on earth after he had done High Priestly work. – No text about him being priest on earth given here.

GE:
“ALL” the works of God, says Hebrews 4:4-5 – just like the Genesis and Exodus and Deuteronomy records on the Sabbath say. Either Christ did the works of God, and completed them, as He said in many ways He would, or God, did not finish all His works, and must stand the accused of lying.
But for Bob Ryan and his like, this is no problem – they simply deny that where Jesus died, God died – “for it cannot be”, they say.
So whatever Jesus did when offering Himself the ransom for sin, He did not do, nor completed, the work of God; and that is the only way it could be explained He was not priest while on earth!
That is how Seventh Day Adventists ‘think’.

“NO textual proofs at all”, says BR, conveniently forgetting the many and verious ‘textual proofs’ I have given before, quite unlike BR who each time repeats the same misinterpretation of Hb.8:4.


BR:
Here is a good example of GE's textless, quoteless, proof-devoid "assertions" -- pontification that includes NO textual proofs at all. ...
GE said, Jesus completed "all the works of God on the Seventh Day" - Hb.4:4-5
No text at all about Priesthood! No text at all about Christ NOT doing work IN HEAVEN NOW for us. In fact this is merely a partial SNIPPET quote of Heb 4 not even the vs it CLAIMS to have quoted - vs 4-5!!)


GE:
How observant of you ... “In fact this is merely a partial SNIPPET quote of Heb 4 not even the vs it CLAIMS to have quoted - vs 4-5!!”
If only you were as observant otherwise.

“No text at all about Christ NOT doing work IN HEAVEN NOW for us.” Who, ever, denied? I’ll tell you who: You are denying Christ is doing work IN HEAVEN NOW for us, for on what basis could He do work IN HEAVEN NOW for us, had He not been High Priest who accomplished atonement and salvation – the work of God of the exceeding greatness of His power? On what basis could Christ be doing work IN HEAVEN NOW for us if not, while on earth, He acted High Priest in and by laying down His Life and in and by taking up His Life again? What work could Christ be doing IN HEAVEN NOW for us, had not “the God of Peace (and atonement) through the blood of the Everlasting Covenant (and Priesthood of Christ) bring from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd (today) of the sheep”?

Exactly so, as Bob Ryan has said, did “GE then pontificate - rationalize - and "insert" what he WISHES he had read in that partial SNIPPET quote of Heb 4”.
Could you have done better, dear Bob Ryan? Could you have done better through denying everything I thus ‘rationalise’ and ‘insert’ ... and pontificate “in that partial SNIPPET quote of Heb 4”, namely: "all the works" only God, would be able to finish, and therefore High Priest only in the capacity of Divine Omnipotence, would accomplished? The qualification conditional and resultant?

Here then is your own answer of confirmation that you deny:
“Such rambling can not possibly be imagined as either "exegesis" or instruction or proof. Ge "quotes HIMSELF" as his own PROOF!”

So it’s “rambling” (for Christ) to glorify God in every work of His, especially in His finishing of all His works through and Jesus Christ our Lord.
For you, obviously, it is “rambling”; not for me, I pray God, not for me!

 

"If He were on earth, He would not be a priest", is a SUPPOSITION of an IMPOSSIBILITY. It is a supposition based on the PRESUPPOSITION of TRUTH, which is, that Jesus HAD BEEN High Priest, and THEREFORE, could not REMAIN, on earth. He COULD not remain on earth, else He would have had to be mortal and sinner, like those priests who on earth, according to the Law applicable to mortals and sinners, offer the gifts only mortals and sinners, can give. But He, had eternal life to offer a Gift of Grace EARNED, and OBTAINED through omnipotent, Divine Power in the resurrection of the Son of God. “(Where)fore if He were on earth (still), He should not be a priest.” “But now He HATH OBTAINED a more excellent ministry, BY HOW MUCH also He is the Mediator of a better Covenant ESTABLISHED upon better Promises.” (8:6)

How, when, where, and “by how MUCH”, “earned”, “obtained”, and “established”?
Here and by this much: “When I will make a NEW Covenant.”
As “when I took (Israel) by the hand to LEAD them OUT of the land of Egypt”; when “after those days ... I will be to them a God ... for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.” (8:7f)
When were these “promises”, MADE TRUE, where, and how?
In Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, when, where, and as, He “lead out” of captivity of sin and death; when, where, and as, in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, He was “merciful” and forgave sin and destroyed enmity and made peace; when, where, and as, in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, He “made”, “earned”, “obtained” and “established” “New Covenant”.
(Look at the word “made” – “all the works God made”, “finished”!)
AS, none of these “promises” became true were Christ not raised from the dead, SO, none of these “promises” remained unfulfilled – remained having not been made true; remained on earth, yet to be made true ... “For if Jesus rested them, then would He not have spoken of another day after that.” (4:8)

 

You see, Seventh Day Adventists understand something about the Gospel Message that many Christians just do not get. It is the final warning message to mankind... Try to follow along with this simple train of thought...

NOTICE... the EVERLASTING GOSPEL and those who keep it or "obey" the gospel message are God's people who do what? ,,,who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS... READ this:


Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and the faith of Jesus.


And now watch again... now how do you supposed people can "OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL"???


2Thes:1:7-9: “…when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them THAT KNOW NOT GOD, and THAT THEY OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”


...what is there to obey??? THE COMMANDMENTS!! THATS WHAT!!


Now look again. We were just warned that those who do not OBEY the Gospel would be punished with destruction. Also the Bible warns that if we are not ABIDING in Christ, we will be ashamed at His coming... and of course we will be among those who say to the rocks "fall on us" and hide us from the presence of the Lord... Isaiah 2:16-21 READ THIS:


1Jn:2:28: And now, little children, ABIDE in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

well then the big question of the day is..... how do we know we are abiding in Christ? Lets see...


1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I John 3:14,15: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


1Jn:3:6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

"If a man love Me," Christ said, "he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." John 14:23.

To "abide" in Christ, you must "die to self" and no longer walk in the flesh... Jn:12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. (that would be the fruits of the Spirit)

1Jn:3:14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1Jn:2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn:2:6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


ALLRIGHT THEN, we also read in that same verse that if we DO NOT KNOW GOD, we will be punished with destruction:


2Thes:1:7-9: “…when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them THAT KNOW NOT GOD, and THAT THEY OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power”


So how can we know if we DO know God? Let's read:


1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

2Jn:1:6: And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.


Its really simple. The Everlasting GOSPEL,, the SAME GOSPEL there has always been all along, has always been that we have faith in the atoning blood of Christ AND AND AND that we obey His commandments. The very PURPOSE of the Gospel, the very purpose of Jesus dying for our sins was so that He could REDEEM US from sin... and not leave us wallowing in our sins!

It is the very same message as the Three Angels Messages of Revelation 14. Any way you look at it, the same thing over and over again in the Scriptures.


Look Everybody, like it or not, IF you are not abiding in Christ, IF you do not know God... this is whats going to happen:


THE LAW, summed up, is... love God and love your neighbor. The new covenant is that God will write His law in our hearts if we consent. Treating our neighbor as we would want to be treated is another way of putting it. False prophets will deceive you and try to make you believe that all you have to do is "believe" and you will be saved. But the true way to heaven is the STRAIT GATE... the Narrow Way... "The Way" is the old path, the ten commandments. If you are truly serve God and love God you will show this by YOUR FRUITS... Remeber John the Baptist said bring forth FRUITS meet for repentence... or in other words... appropriate for someone who claims to have repented from their sins. In other words you will repent and stop doing what you were previously doing. IF you do not do this, then when Jesus comes He is going to say to you, I am sorry but I DO NOT KNOW YOU!! you that work INIQUITY (sin):


Matthew 7:
12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This is the Judgment message. Or at least part of it.

Claudia

 

CT:
Just as a side note,
The JUDGMENT MESSAGE is really a message about God investigating to see who really loves Him, who loves God so much that they live for a purpose, and that purpose is to GLORIFY GOD by their good works.

GE:
The JUDGMENT MESSAGE is really a message about God who has fulfilled every promise and oath of His to the salvation sure and fast of those who really love Him. He knows what He did - it's tested and final and forever. God "investigates" nothing of His own works, see! God so loved that He gave His Life for His Eternal Purpose, and that purpose was to GLORIFY Himself by His own works:
"For He that is entered into that rest (that "Jesus gave them", His rest of "indestructible Life") He also hath ceased from His own works as God from His". "By Him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually ... giving thanks to His Name." (13:15) "BY HIM"!

CT:
WHY did Jesus die for us? anyone know? HINT: Its all about GOD... not just about US: (read particularly verse 14)
What is the purpose of the grace of God??
Titus:2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

GE:
Notice the Pasts and Past Perfects! "the grace of God hath appeared"; "Who gave himself". The Christian believes in the finished works of God - in a finished salvation. On the grounds of that, the believer has hope and faith in the works of God in the future.
So for Revelation 14.

Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and GIVE GLORY TO HIM; for THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (quoting from the Sabbath commandment- the 4th commandment)
How do we give glory to God? it tells us in verse 12:
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Mt:5:16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your GOOD WORKS, and GLORIFY YOUR FATHER which is in heaven.

GE:
"...that they may SEE your good works, and GLORIFY YOUR FATHER which is in heaven."
The only good works God sees as our good works, are those of Christ accounted to us unto righteousness. Which works are those: These: That "God in Christ reconciled unto Himself the world" - that Christ gave His life an offering pleasing to God in our stead because it a Life of Victory. Thus, "they GLORIFY YOUR FATHER which is in heaven."


CT:
PAY ATTENTION:
2Cor:5:15: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


PAY ATTENTION AGAIN:
1Pt:2:24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Yes of course we are saved by the blood of Christ alone, but some are missing the entire point, the entire purpose.

GE:
Consider: "Yes of course we are saved by the blood of Christ alone, but some are missing the entire point, the entire purpose."
"Should live"; "healed"; "which live unto Him"; "which rose again" - yet hear:
"Yes of course we are saved by the blood of Christ ALONE ..."
We are NOT saved by the blood of Christ "alone", but by the Truth He who died, from the dead rose again!

Obviously some are missing the entire point, the entire purpose: they are disabled to see we are saved by the LIFE of Christ ALONE, "GIVEN" - the "Gift", "this Man", had "to offer" as our Ransom - as our atonement!
What about the "Gift" of the LIFE of Christ in all He had done ... PAY ATTENTION AGAIN! "In all He had done" - in all the works of God He "finished"; "finished", "WHEN GOD"! "When God" did what? "When God RAISED Him from the dead"!

You Seventh Day Adventists!
Each time I think, now they cannot miss Jesus' resurrection, this once they will notice it and make notice of it - to the glory of Him -, I am disappointed. Like here once again.
HE, "His own Self" the Giver of Life Himself, disappears behind a Roman Catholic view of what is all human 'passion' merely! But the "stripes", and the "healing" in them which no one is able to behold and live, the which is the very life of God in being "given" and "offered" in High Priestly distinction of God on earth - that, is paid no attention. Where that Life is "taken up again", and "the Great Shepherd our Lord Jesus (is) brought again from the dead", it is not regarded worth mention or attention! All you can say, is, "Yes of course we are saved by the blood of Christ ALONE ...".
Three little monkeys, seeing nothing, hearing nothing, saying nothing. Because they are lifeless. "Because thou sayest, I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing - but knowest not thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked". (That is worse than dead!)
Don't you say this yourself of yourself? Come now, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: Be zealous therefore and repent!"
Will the Seventh Day Adventist Church ever repent? If, they will have to start with 'The Investigative Judgement'.

 

BR:
GE then spins a SNIPPET of Heb 7 to get it to say that Christ WAS on earth as High priest WHERE IT SAYS that Melchezidek was in fact PRIEST ...

GE:
Hebrews 7:15f, "After the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another Priest, who is made Priest NOT after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life." (So, regardless of the fact there were others who served as priests.)
"Every high priest is ORDAINED TO, offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that THIS Man (Jesus) have somewhat also, TO, offer." (7:15-16)
So Christ was "ordained" High Priest, TO lay down His life, but also was "ordained" High Priest of God, TO take it up again, IN ORDER THAT HE TOO, as High Priest of God "entering in into the Most Holy" of "His Own Rest", should "have somewhat also to offer".
That "somewhat also to offer" was Jesus' life eternal TAKEN UP IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. Write it in capital letters!
That "somewhat also", He on behalf of those left behind on earth, "offered before the Throne" in capacity of having been "ordained" High Priest, BEFORE.
Then follows 8:4, "For if He were on earth, he should not be a priest".
As High Priest, "were He on earth", had He NO "GIFT" TFFER! (He would have had to be in the earth and in the very heart of it, the grave.) As High Priest, had He NO "GIFT" TFFER, "WERE He no priest at all"! (Subjunctive with all its implications!)
But Christ did better and presented a better gift than all those priests who on earth offered gifts. His Gift was the reality; theirs no more than an imperfect pointer to His that had to be "disannulled" with the "change of priesthood" - a change that was "brought in" before office taken or made.

Snippets, but true.

Christ BEFORE He made sacrifice by the giving of His own life-blood for sins, had been "ordained High Priest"; had been "ordained High Priest" "BY GOD" in fact, and had been "ordained High Priest of God" from everlasting to everlasting - BEFORE having had made sacrifice, before afterwards, He offered His Life as somewhat, for the sins of those dead in it!

BR:
But that SNIPPET must be kept SMALL AND SPARSE to avoid the DETAILS in the text showing that it is only in that the King of Salem is NOT mentioned as having beginning or end that HE becomes a type of Christ.

GE:
Help me!

BR:
No argument is made in Heb 7 AT ALL that Christ was HIGH PRIEST on EARTH. In fact the point is made that NOTHING is said about Judah holding to the PRIESTHOOD!!

GE:
How many times now have you simply asserted this?

 

Since GE seems to be asking if there might be a way to spin Heb 7 to make Christ and EARTHLY High Priest -- lets look at the chapter "in detail".

GE:
False accusation! I do NOT, quote, “make Christ and EARTHLY High Priest”. I cannot make Christ, Priest – who am I? “No man taketh this honour unto himself” – much less is given it by the worst of sinners!
“So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made an High Priest, BUT HE THAT SAID UNTO HIM, Thou art my Son. TODAY have I begotten thee. As _HE SAITH_: Thou art a Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec ... called OF GOD an High Priest.” (5:6,10)
WHEN, o WHEN? Where, and how did GOD DECLARE, the High Priestly worthiness of this MAN, Jesus?
“Who in the days of his flesh offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared – THOUGH HE WAS THE SON, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; and BEING MADE PERFECT, HE BECAME the Author of eternal salvation.” A Priest - a High Priest - here on earth, for people, here on earth!

Jesus HAD BEEN “High Priest of God” all along, but never before or after was so honoured and recognised by HIM who made Him High Priest for ever, than WHEN and AS and THROUGH being “made perfect” "when He raised Him from the dead". Here the Word of Almighty God resounds through all eternity. “HE SAITH”, indeed “AS, He saith”: “Thou art Priest for ever”. (Which only is this, HIGH, Priest.)
Jesus Christ after forty days was taken up into the heavens, AFTER He had been exalted “when God raised Him from the dead”, “ABOVE the heavens”, FOR HAVING BEEN THIS HIGH PRIEST SINCE ETERNITY.

Bob Ryan, and Seventh Day Adventists, God made Christ High Priest; when? Forever; and declared Christ High Priest, when? After He had done His eternal work of eternal High Priest’s work; Where, and how? When and as He rose from the dead, ON EARTH and FROM earth and the grave, it, having become the footstool of the Throne of God in the heavens.
This is the Gospel, and this is its truth; which makes your ‘investigative judgement’ a most abominable lie.

"Ye have need that one teach you again the words of God ..."

 

BR:
Heb 7 deals with the law of genealogy of the priest showing that Christ had no EARTHLY claim to priesthood in the system GOD defined. He had NO Aaronic Genealogy so His is a priesthood IN HEAVEN not earth. So this requires a switch from earthly to heavenly things -- and the LAW regarding ANIMAL sacrifice and HUMAN priests is replaced by the heavenly high priestly work of Christ and Christ's blood.

GE:
Consider, “... so His is a priesthood IN HEAVEN not earth...”
That –“a priesthood IN HEAVEN not earth”- defeats the object or “need” of “a switch” being “required”; a ‘switch’ that would “disannul” (7:18) the law regarding the “genealogy of the (Aaronic) priest” with its “EARTHLY claim to priesthood”, in order to “raise” another “Priest after the order of Melchisedec and not after the order of Aaron” (7:11). The whole object of the ‘switch’ of Law and priesthood being, that the old should make space for the new, the ‘earthly’ for the ‘heavenly’, ON EARTH, NOT, “in heaven”. (8:13)
Change (or ‘switch’) of law or priesthood ‘in heaven’ is an a priori impossibility. But this, was a ‘needed’ change so that Jesus Christ would on earth take in the place of the priests on earth. So His is a HEAVENLY priesthood ON earth; was it; and ever will be; - believed in as The High Priesthood “after the Law of an endless life” (7:16), brought in and perfected on earth in the life of the Man, Jesus Christ, through resurrection from the dead.

Advertisement 1: Vacancy: Office: Earth. Position: High Priesthood of God. Qualification: Endless Life. Advertisement 2: Nomination made: Appointment filled, High Priest of Almighty God, Jesus Christ, God with us.