Event vrs Process Justification

ascund · Sep 10, 2005

Hey Bob

Another exegesis void of context from you!

Col 1:22-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.
Click to expand...

Christ-deniers miss the fact that the “if” clause modifies the presentation of the believer as holy, unblameable, and unreproveable. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is terrible exegesis to slice up a passage and pick and choose only what you want.

In context, the analysis of the Greek “if” clause shows that the final embarrassment is with the NSNS position for slicing scripture and picking only the parts that it seem to support its self-righteous view.

A significant clue can be seen in verse 21. They were once alienated. The word alienated (apallotriomenoos) is in the Greek Perfect Tense (GPT). The basic explanation of this tense is that it denotes an action that was brought to completion and whose effects are felt in the present. The perfect tense isn’t the normal choice for even most Greek speakers. We must assume that there is a reason for its use whenever it occurs whether or not we understand it. The act of being alinenated happened in the past and continues in the present. Since the Greek Perfect Tense has no wiggle room for a cessation of the action, there must be a definitive statement that will specifically undo the action mentioned in the Greek Perfect Tense for it to stop. Here, there is a direct reference to reconciliation that stops the formerly continuous action! If there is no direct reference; there is no cessation of action!

The word reconciliation is an aorist. Paul is wishing to view past salvation as if it were a point event without emphasizing the continuance of the results of that point event. The believer is only inserted into Christ’s body by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) once. Nowhere in the Bible is there any language of being immersed into Christ a second time. Salvation is called the second birth – not the third birth or fourth birth.

Verse 22 shows that believers are inserted into the body of Christ in order to be presented holy, blameless, and irreproachable before God. The point event of justification needs a process of shaping. The goal of this shaping is rewards – not justification.
Verse 23 provides the biggest clue in this whole passage. The word grounded (teqemeliwmevnoi) is yet another Greek Perfect Tense. Note that there is no other construct that will undo this verb. The intent is that this act continues! Many of the significant passages in Scripture describing the new birth use the Greek Perfect Tense to highlight the permanence of that change. So the GPT implies that the Colossians were perfectly and continuously grounded in the faith from a past act of faith in Jesus Christ.

The outcomes of whether or not they continued in the faith had nothing whatsoever to do with their present reality of being completely and firmly grounded in Jesus Christ. This means that the outcomes of whether of not they continued in the faith had everything to do with their present reality of fellowship. Were they settled? Where they moved away from the gospel?
The presentation of the believers is equivalent to Eph 5:27 where the church is presented to God with almost the exact same words. The issue isn’t salvation but sanctification. The words holy, unblameable, and unreproveable are all three words that describe the process of Christian growth. The Christian’s growth is marked by up’s and down’s, varying degrees of faithfulness, and incomplete obedience at the best. This is sanctification.

If justification depended on our faithfulness, then no one would be saved. God tells us that even in our BEST state that we are but “vanity” (Psa 39:5). Paul declares that at the final judgment that everyone in the whole world will be so convinced of their own personal guilt that every mouth will be stopped (Rom 3:19). The Romans Road includes a verse that common-sense indicates that everyone falls short of God’s glory through sin and disobedience (Rom 3:23). If Christ hasn’t risen, then we are all “most pitiable” for we are still in our sins (1 Cor 15:17)! In Adam all die (1 Cor 15:22)! If justification depends in any little part on continued human faithfulness, then we all will fall short of the mark. God demands perfection and anything short of perfection will be judged. Unless we can claim Christ’s righteousness, it will be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God! Since no one (but Jesus) has been able to fulfill the law, how is it that the NSNS Sadvocates think so highly of human faithfulness?

When the apostles were faced with the very same corrupting NSNS view, they were quick to condemn it saying, “Why would you test God by adding the yoke of faithfulness which neither our fathers nor we were able to fulfill?” (Acts 15:10). If the negative response wasn’t enough they rephrased it positively saying, “Even we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner [of purifying faith (see verse 9)] as they.” (Acts 15:11).

Lloyd

ascund · Sep 10, 2005

Hey Bob

Your goof in John 3:6 is that while you can speak of the Flesh and the SPIRIT, you miss the unmistakable context. How can you do this so easily and continuously?

Jesus is contrasting the new birth. It is not from below - it is from above.

It is not from human works - it is by faith.

How clear does it have to be? Why do you twist so hard to avoid such clarity?

Believe in the Lord Jesus.
Lloyd

ascund · Sep 10, 2005

Hey Bob

You are right. All you can do to the following list is "spin" it to your side. Note that I only quoted scripture here. You'll have to work to show I quoted wrongly from CONTEXT.

Oops - Sorry. That is something you don't know how to do. Oh Well. This is some powerful list.

God’s Promises include the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).

This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.
Lloyd

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

Here comes "another Bible study" for Lloyd to avoid.

God does not think we have eternal life now – as humans.

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Click to expand...

Future eternal life –

Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

Titus 1
1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 3
6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

1 John 2
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.

Jude 1
20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
Click to expand...

future immortality “promised”[/b] as a result of future judgment (BOTH good and bad results from that judgment)

Rom 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Click to expand...

This same focus on future judgment with reward for BOTH good and bad deeds is seen in 2Cor 5.

2Cor 5
:9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Click to expand...

Promised “future immortality” – future eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:53
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 15:54
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, " DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
[/quote]

This future hope – is where Paul was “Focused” as he “ was striving for the goal and pressing on”.

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

In Romans 4 we find God calling Abram the “Father of many nations” while as yet he had no children. This is a model for the “faith” Abraham that counts those things that are not “As though they are” Romans 4. This faith reaches forward and claims by faith – that future reward. Even so many texts ALSO describe eternal life as the gift “received” – though as the texts point out – it is in fact the “PROMISE” of eternal life that is received! And as Matt 18 points out – that promise with its associated Gospel gift of forgiveness is void where “Forgiveness is revoked” and as Galatians 5 states – where one is “fallen from Grace”.

This means that our well-meaning OSAS brethren do not have God trapped in the box that they “think” they have Him in when some fall away and fail to persevere.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
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Col 1:22-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach

23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the vaccuous response to this devastating text we see that the idea of "NOT MOVED AWAY" is deliberately "deleted" ducked and avoided!

Why so shy?

Perhaps it is "because" the one who IS MOVED AWAY must be "moved away FROM SOMETHING"!!

In this case the CONTEXT of the text SHOWS what that something IS!!

Devastatingly for OSAS it IS STATED in the text to be the saved condition --

22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach

So what will you do now Lloyd that your "avoidance" of the salient point is so exposed?

Why not try dealing with the point?

As for the idea that "IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE" can be "spun and deleted" from the text as "meaningless" (as you seem to hope in your response) -- your argument failed before it started.

In Christ,

Bob

ascund · Sep 10, 2005

Bob has botched it yet again

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Click to expand...

This is a quote referring to physical life. They had already become like God knowing good and evil and had lost their spiritual lives.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Click to expand...

This is part of the judgment of Gentiles after the tribulation. Hence these Gentiles are already saved.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
Click to expand...

These are in parallel. Here Jesus is speaking to His already saved disciples.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Titus 1
1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
Click to expand...

This hope is certain because God promised it. It is not a warning about unconditionality; it is an encouragement of hope.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Titus 3
6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
Click to expand...

Justified by grace (historic and passive) with a “hina” clause to show result.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
1 John 2
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
Click to expand...

This epistle was written to the already saved members of John’s community. He isn’t urging them to believe in the Lord Jesus for justification. He is urging them to abide in Jesus for fuller rewards.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Jude 1
20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
future immortality “promised”[/b] as a result of future judgment (BOTH good and bad results from that judgment)
Click to expand...

Jude is writing to those who are sanctified (perfect pass ptc) and preserved (perfect pass ptc) (Jude 1). The “waiting anxiously” is a mistranslation. It comes from the Greek word “prosdechomai” (Pres mid ptc) which means “receive, welcome, acknowledge” according to Trenchard p.28. This is an encouragement to look forward to experiencing that which we already have in heaven.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Rom 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This same focus on future judgment with reward for BOTH good and bad deeds is seen in 2Cor 5.
Click to expand...

This passage falls in Paul’s first unit (1:18-3:19). The greater context demonstrates God’s judgment upon self-righteousness in every form. This includes perverts, chosen Israelites, moral Gentiles, and all humans in general. God’s judgment will be so conclusive that every mouth will be stopped (3:19).

Unsaved Gentiles will receive a reward for their good deeds as some form of lesser eternal punishment.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
2Cor 5
9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Promised “future immortality” – future eternal life.
Click to expand...

This is a future judgment for believers only. The subject is believers’ works. This happens AFTER the Church is caught out of the world when the Lord comes (1 Cor 4:5) in the air (1 Thess 4:17). It will not be a judgment of destiny in the sense of a trial but a judgment of works as in the Judges stand at a Fair. It will happen as given in 1 Cor 3:11-15 where all those judged “WILL BE SAVED.”

Originally posted by BobRyan:
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, " DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

This future hope – is where Paul was “Focused” as he “ was striving for the goal and pressing on”.
Yes! This hope is future. While the believer’s destiny is certain, rewards are conditional.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

Let’s start with context (again)! Philippians is an epistle of joy and encouragement in the midst of adverse circumstances. The letter is addressed to all the saints in Christ Jesus (1:1). By the very first words, we know that the issue of justification is an historic basis. Paul is confident that God will finish the work begun in them (1:6). In chapter 2, he exhorts the Philippians to imitate the mindset of Jesus Who gave everything for our redemption (2:2-11). We are to work out this inner justification (2:12). In chapter 3, he warns against having confidence in the flesh (3:4). Our text follows this as Paul gives the right confidence in Jesus Christ. Paul exhorts believers to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ that has already been attained. Chapter 4 ends with a discussion of peace in all circumstances.

Where in these few short chapters is there any room for Paul to shift from these topics to a discussion of how one might lose their salvation? It doesn’t fit the context. One can only have this if one forces errant presuppositions upon the text.

Salvation is God’s active costly gift offered freely to humanity to be received passively by faith in Jesus Christ. Our faith determines our destiny (heaven or hell); our actions determine our rewards (much or little). Paul knew of Moses who was disqualified for disobedience and did not win the prize of entrance into the Promised Land. Therefore, Paul doesn’t want to let up and miss any reward – even if God will finish what He started. Let’s see what context says.
Thank God that this verse has bookends! The pressing toward the mark of the upward call is bounded by verses 12 & 16. The first bookend tells says the goal of life has already been set for us by Jesus.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (v12)
or
But I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ Jesus saved me for and wants me to be. (NLT)

There is no hint of working for salvation in the first bookend. But there is everything about achieving what Jesus has already determined for us in our Christian life as a goal.
The second bookend says the believer’s position is Rock solid.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule. (v16)
What have we already attained? Eternal life – a past tense historic event! There is no hint of working for salvation in the second bookend either. But there is everything about making our fleeting life experience match our ROCK solid position.
What Jesus Christ accomplished at Calvary must be worked into our lives today. We “grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior.” (2 Pet 3:18). … Our lives in eternity are being affected now by the many choices we make daily.

Using verses 13-14 without the bookend verses 12 & 16 is asking for a sure-fired error so typical of the NSNS heresy.

See Bob! Everything you post has been violently abused by your tragic disdain for context. Furthermore, these are mostly (all?) sanctification verses that you have redefined to be justification. Do you wonder why I say your posts are always backwards?!?

Lloyd
Click to expand...

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

Lloyd in case you are running out of ways to flee the Bible studies being posted here. I thought a note of encouragement. That Bible study on "Eternal life" inherited and PROMISED in the "age to come" -- was one of the studies made ON THE SPOT here as a courtesy to you bro!

See it "for the first time"...

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3384/9.html#000123

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous INTO eternal life."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lloyd said --!

This is part of the judgment of Gentiles after the tribulation. Hence these Gentiles are already saved.
Click to expand...

First of all -- WELL DONE! You are actually stopping to respond to EACH text rather than glossing over them all and then making a half-hearted attempt at ONE!

I applaud this new approach! Bravo! I approve! Keep it up!

2. One thing your response "misses" is that BOTH sides agree that the group getting Eternal life when others get "hell" -- are SAVED! The point is that they GET eternal life - showing that they DID NOT ALREADY HAVE IT -- even though as you admitted - they were ALREADY SAVED!!

Get it?

See - how much difference the "salient point" makes if you should choose to respond to it?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 18
29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lloyd said
These are in parallel. Here Jesus is speaking to His already saved disciples.
Click to expand...

Ditto my lost post "Again" where you avoid the salient point.

BOTH groups agree that the followers of Christ are SAVED NOW - but my group ALSO ADMITS that the text shows them getting "eternal life" ONLY in "THE AGE TO COME".

And "thus" the mechanism for Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" to be TRUE.

And "thus" the mechanism for Gal 5 "FALLEN FROM GRACE" to be TRUE!

And thus the mechanism for Heb 6:3-8 "impossible to RENEW THEM AGAIN" to be TRUE!!

Get it?

IN Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Titus 1
1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lloyd said
This hope is certain because God promised it. It is not a warning about unconditionality; it is an encouragement of hope.
Click to expand...

Indeed and one does not HOPE for Justification because we already HAVE that!

We HOPE for that which we DO NOT HAVE! Which means your earlier argument that Matt 18 CAN NOT be TRUE since we ALREADY have eternal life - is purely "bogus".

Get it?

Yet?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Titus 3
6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Again" the salient point is that eternal life is given as a PROMISE on this side of "the age to come". So it can be lost on the same "conditions" that one can refuse to accept in the first place.

For this reason Paul argues that FUTURE HOPE as a MOTIVATOR to "good deeds". Read it again "For the first time"

8This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men.

Those who are already justified - are still limited to the HOPE of Eternal life. They do not "HOPE for Justification" - because you do not HOPE for what you already HAVE.

Lloyd
Justified by grace (historic and passive) with a “hina” clause to show result.
Click to expand...

You keep trying to impress us with the fact that you can read.

How is that helping you?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
1 John 2
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John agrees with Paul that eternal life is in fact a "hope" for those who are Christians.

He also urges that we CONTINUE TO ABIDE in Christ.

Lloyd -
This epistle was written to the already saved members of John’s community.
Click to expand...

Wrong! It was written to the church at large - group composed of BOTH the saved and the lost to this very day.

But you are right in that John assumes that the reader has accepted Christ, is a Christian (justified by grace through faith) and is ready to hear about the HOPE of eternal life. Though obviously he KNOWS that not all members of the church are saved - not ALL readers are justified.

Lloyd
He isn’t urging them to believe in the Lord Jesus for justification. He is urging them to abide in Jesus for fuller rewards.
Click to expand...

Indeed - the HOPE of eternal life.

What an outstanding "reward"!! (Mentioned EXPLICITLY IN the text! Not a company car in heaven or a bigger garage or a corner office!)

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Jude 1
20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;[/quote]

The saints are called to BUILD themselves up in faith (Sanctification) and to "KEEP themselves" in an expectant attitude of "Waiting" for the mercy of Christ to (toward the goal of ) eternal life.

So that AGAIN we see the SAME POINT - the justified saints are looking fORWARD TO that gift of eternal life.

Hence IN THAT STATE they may CHOOSE not to persevere and forfeit the promise given - the promise not yet received - the promise that they are looking fORWARD to - eternal life!

Lloyd

Jude is writing to those who are sanctified (perfect pass ptc) and preserved (perfect pass ptc) (Jude 1). The “waiting anxiously” is a mistranslation.
Click to expand...

Let me get out my "Lloyd reference translation" and check out that cirtique of the NASB. OOPS! I guess I forgot to purchase that one!

BTW - the point remains - the Eternal Life promised is ALSO future HERE as well!!

Lloyd
It comes from the Greek word “prosdechomai” (Pres mid ptc) which means “receive, welcome, acknowledge” according to Trenchard p.28. This is an encouragement to look forward to experiencing that which we already have in heaven.
Click to expand...

Well as nice as it would be to take your linguistic skills OVER the massive scholarship refuting it ---

Jude 1 NASB
20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, [/b]waiting anxiously[/b] for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
Click to expand...

Jude 1 (NIV)
Listen to this passage
21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Jude 1 (YLT)
View commentary related to this passage
21yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during;

Jude 1 (NKJV)
View commentary related to this passage
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude 1 (NLT)
View commentary related to this passage
21Live in such a way that God's love can bless you as you wait for the eternal life that our Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy is going to give you.

Jude 1 (DARBY)
View commentary related to this passage
21keep yourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Click to expand...

What does John Gill’s commentary say about the accuracy and trustworthy nature of this FUTURE looking forward to the mercy of Christ and FUTURE eternal life?!!

The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible

http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=jude&chapter=001&verse=021

JUDE 1:21
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
The mercy of Christ may be considered either as past, which was shown in eternity, in his covenant transactions with his Father, in engaging in the cause of his people, in espousing them to himself, and in the care of their persons, grace, and glory; and in time, in assuming their nature, in his tender concern for the bodies and souls of men, in bearing the sins and sorrows of his people, in the redemption of them, and in their regeneration and calling; and there is the present mercy of Christ, in interceding for his people, in sympathizing with them under all their afflictions, in succouring them under all their temptations, in suiting himself, as the great Shepherd, to all the circumstances of his flock; and there is the future mercy of Christ, which will be shown at death, in the grave, and at the resurrection, at the day of judgment, and in the merciful sentence he will pronounce on his people; and this seems to be designed here the consequent of which, or what is annexed to it, and in which it issues, is eternal life; which is not owing to the works of men, but to the grace of God, and mercy of Christ; eternal life is in him, and is given through him, and to his mercy should men look for it. Christ himself is to be looked for, who will certainly come a second time; and eternal life is to be looked for by him; and this is only to be expected through his grace and mercy; and this is to be looked for by faith, in the love of it, with delight and pleasure, and cheerfulness, with eagerness, and yet with patience.
Click to expand...

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Rom 2

5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Click to expand...

Obviously we see a number of things for Lloyd to run away from.

#1. We are IN ROMANS 2!! That alone should scare the wilies out of Lloyd! He should not be able to actually comment on - nor exegeted - ANY of it. Rather we would expect him to duck-run-and-hide insisting that we NOT talk about Romans 2 but talk about Romans 1 and 3 INSTEAD.

#2. Vs 4 and 5 give a GOSPEL CONTEXT for Romans 2 -- of "repentance" and the CALL to repent. As well as the reaction of SOME who choose NOT to.

#3. IN the verses above we see TWO kinds of deeds. We see the deeds of those who DO good and the deeds of those who DO bad. And we see the recompense for BAD - is NOT "eternal life" as Lloyd speculated when Paul speaks AGAIN of recompense for deeds "Good and bad" in 2Cor 5.

#4. Paul points to BOTH results - BOTH the result of eternal life AND The result of burning in hell fire - in that FUTURE judgment of God. And obviously we already know that BOTH the good and bad results will be present!

No escaping it. No obfuscating it. No ducking, running or hiding.

Rom 2
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This same focus on future judgment with reward for BOTH good and bad deeds is seen in 2Cor 5.
Click to expand...

Lloyd
This passage falls in Paul’s first unit (1:18-3:19).
Click to expand...

Indeed. Romans 2 is BETWEEN Romans 1 and 3.

And now -- for Romans 2?!! yet? finally? Bring yourself to look at it?

Lloyd
The greater context demonstrates God’s judgment upon self-righteousness in every form.
Click to expand...

Is that your way of "exegeting"

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Click to expand...

No? Rather you are still ducking and hiding from that??? Really?

Well maybe it was your way of exegeting

Rom 2
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Click to expand...

No? Rather you are still ducking and hiding from that??? Really?

How "unnexpected".

The fact that OSAS is forcing you to "continually turn a blind eye to Romans 2" has GOT to be a "clue" for you sooner or later!!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

See Lloyd. So far all your rabbit trails have ENDED! Each one carefully debunked. Carefully shown to be a dodge "needed by OSAS" but to do it - in each case you violated the basic rules of exegesis and had to run from the salient point of the argument in most cases so far.

Surely you can not simply continue to turn a blind eye to what you are doing here.

I know this has got to sink in sooner or later.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Sep 10, 2005

BobRyan posted
Promised “future immortality” – future eternal life.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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1 Corinthians 15:54
But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, " DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
</font>[/QUOTE]This future hope – is where Paul was “Focused” as he “ was striving for the goal and pressing on”.

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

[/quote]

Lloyd said --

Let’s start with context (again)! Philippians is an epistle of joy ... By the very first words, we know that the issue of justification is an historic basis.
Click to expand...

Wonderful "Common ground" for Justification past event. But the salient points give are that the saints were looking FORWARD to the eternal life promised in the Gospel.

As Paul notes in Phil 3 - PRESSING ON -- SO THAT Paul might "lay hold of that FOR WHICH also I was laid hold of"

Phil 3
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

Bottom line - Justification-PAST and ETERNAL LIFE - FUTURE!!

PRESSING ON!

Thus the chapter of Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" IS REAL.

Thus the chapter of Gal 5:3-5 "Fallen from Grace" IS REAL!

Thus the chapter of Heb 6:3-8 "Impossible to renew those who have fallen away" is REAL!

Lloyd
Paul is confident that God will finish the work begun in them (1:6). In chapter 2, he exhorts the Philippians to imitate
Click to expand...

These are goog things for sure and certainly takes the focus OFF of the offending texts in Phil 3 for your OSAS.

But the point remains!

Lloyd said -
In chapter 3, he warns against having confidence in the flesh (3:4). .. Paul exhorts believers to grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ that has already been attained.

Chapter 4 ends with...
Click to expand...

OOPS! You zoomed right past the ENTIRE CHAPTER 3 -- the verses I quoted!! You simply "turned a blind eye to them"--- again!

How "unnexpected"!

Lloyd

Where in these few short chapters is there any room for Paul to shift from these topics to a discussion of how one might lose their salvation?
Click to expand...

hint: Since you avoided ALL but vs 4 of chapter 3 -- then why not START with the Phil 3 texts ACTUALLY QUOTED in the debate to ANSWER the point?!!

How is it that EACH time you respond you are convinced that faithfully avoiding the text, turning a blind eye to what has just been posted IN PHIL 3 - is somehow going to "make a case for you"???

Don't you get how this discussion works?!! It works by having the points raised FROM The TEXTS quoted - responded to in some cogent exegetically-sound way!

See?

Lloyd
It doesn’t fit the context.
Click to expand...

Wonderful! Chapter 3 "Doesn't fit the context".

Hint: Why don't you actually READ the points made from Phil 3 and then SEE the texts QUOTED from Chapter 3 -- and then respond

<More of LLoyd's pontificating - deleted here>

FINALLY I get to a part in your post where you dain to actually QUOTE the OSAS-offending portion of Phil 3!!

Lloyd brings himself to quote -

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (v12)
or
But I keep working toward that day when I will finally be all that Christ Jesus saved me for and wants me to be. (NLT)
Click to expand...

Switching from the NASB that I QUOTED

AS --

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...

Lloyd said
There is no hint of working for salvation in the first bookend. But there is everything about achieving what Jesus has already determined for us in our Christian life as a goal.
Click to expand...

The "salient" point being that the FUTURE goal of eternal life -- is now a HOPE. We do not PURSUE justification because that is an event in the PAST! But eternal life IS a promoise PURSUED!

And the ARGUMENT Paul makes is for focused effort - single-minded STRIVING TBTAIN!!

And it is STRIVING in the CONTEXT of one who is ALREADY justified!!

What have we already attained? Eternal life – a past tense historic event!
Click to expand...

Wrong. Again.

Simply SAYING it as you gloss OVER the offending text so devastating to OSAS DOES NOT make your case!

How long will we have to go through that cycle before you get it?

YOu have to form a cogent reply that DEALS WITH the offending, inconvenient text of scripture that you so duck, run and hide from. If you don't do that -- I just get to KEEP POSTING the same UNANSWERED POINTS!

This is really easy to get Lloyd. I know you can see the point. You simply seem to feel that if you turn a blind eye to the problem I WILL TOO!!

Where in the world does that thinking come from Lloyd?!!

How do you expect to be successful with such a tactic?

Lloyd
Using verses 13-14 without the bookend verses 12 & 16 is asking for a sure-fired error so typical of the NSNS heresy.
Click to expand...

AVOIDING vs 7-14 AS YOU HAVE DONE here -- is a SURE FIRE error that already failed you in Romans 2 and has failed in each case above where it was SHOWN that you avoided the salient point of the debate rather than responding to it.

Better to just embrace the text of scripture rather than repeatedly fleeing it Lloyd.

Try the side of light - - I know you are going to enjoy it much better than simply limiting yourself to a blind defense of OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

ascund · Sep 10, 2005

Hey Bob

Continued denial of the overarching context does not make a narrow view true. Verses 7 -14 are true but not as you view it.

When you build a theology on partial context, heresy surely results.

Lloyd

DHK · Sep 11, 2005

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified (past tense) by faith, we have (present tense) peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Case closed. I am justified and have been since the day I trusted Christ. I therefore have peace with God, which comes through our Lord Jesus Christ. I will have this peace with God because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ which began the day I trusted Him as my Saviour. As I said elsewhere, I don't have a religion; I have a relationship. I am adopted into the family of God. I am one of his children. He will never disown me as one of his own. I am a child of the King. I posess eternal life. If I died right now I would go straight to heaven. God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. I am His, and He is mine. I am justified, meaning "just as I've never sinned." That is the way that God looks upon me legally. I am clothed with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. God doesn't see me but the blood of Christ that covers my sin. I am perfectly holy in his sight, for my sins are covered by the Lamb of God, slain before the foundation of the world. This is what makes OSAS such a wonderful Biblical doctrine that all believers may safely rest in.
DHK

ascund · Sep 11, 2005

Hey DHK

Great job on Rom 5:1! Ability to use the simple lexical descriptors enables one to RIGHTLY divide God's Word.

I also like the fact that "justified" in Rom 5:1 is also a passive voice. It is something done to us by GOD alone Who alone can declare the forgiveness of sins and impute righteousness.

BobRyan doesn't get it! This is an EVENT. When we believe in Jesus, we have an eternally secure position even while we are regressing in sin. Bob doesn't like Heb 10:14 for this reason. It confirms both of these truths at once.

Justification is inseparable from sanctification. It is parallel yet distinct from it. Bob can't see this and pulls out his blender.

Great post!
Great verse!!
Great hermeneutic!!!
Lloyd

BobRyan · Sep 11, 2005

Originally posted by DHK:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified (past tense) by faith, we have (present tense) peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Case closed. I am justified and have been since the day I trusted Christ.
Click to expand...

#1. The "case is not closed" until the points are actuall answered.

#2. The point you raise above is the COMMON GROUND that both sides agree to. You can not point to COMMON GROUND and say "case closed".

The reason that you may have been led down that blind alley is that Lloyd likes to "pretend" some position "for me" as IF I am taking it. But since he usually prefaces his "pretend" with "strawman #x" - this should be "a hint" to the reader. (At least in my view).

DHK
I therefore have peace with God, which comes through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

True enough. But that is not the crux of the DIFFERENCEs in this debate - rather it is the center of what is AGREED to.

DHK

As I said elsewhere, I don't have a religion; I have a relationship. I am adopted into the family of God. I am one of his children.
Click to expand...

Indeed. AS Lucifer was - as Adam and Eve "NATURAL branches" that were CREATED IN sinless perfect harmony with God!

Only in your case you are still sinful and have a sinful nature and must walk apart from God as opposed to "depart and be WITH Christ".

Obviously.

HENCE the Matt 18 teaching on "forgiveness revoked" as already quoted here -- is VALID.

Hence God's teaching in Ezek 18 on the SAME point is VALID.

HENCE God's teaching on the need to PERSEVERE is VALID. "FIRM UNTIL THE END".

To deny these teachings of scripture BASED on justification is to bend the doctrine of justification to the usages of a false teaching.

See?

THOSE are the issues that would have to finally be addressed to "close the case".

In Christ,

Bob

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